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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:spartacus didn't have the portions of his brain that can feel emotions other than pain and rage surgically excised, though I mean he's a primarch, I'm sure he'd be ok. They get shot in the head, their hearts ripped out, fatally poisoned, etc., and shrug it off. Angron gets stepped on by a titan at one point and he was totally fine. Even if it actually was unremovable due to "archeotech" hand-waving, he still has plenty of agency both before and after implantation. All the other primarchs were easily capable of bootstrapping themselves to planet-wide domination, but he was only interested in being a top gladiator and just didn't care about anyone except his one friend. That was totally on him. And later on when he was leading a legion he could have treated his Butcher's Nails like a Crown of Thorns - enduring pain for the benefit of his followers. There's plenty of examples of heroes that have to bear some sort of terrible burden. Instead he just continued treating everyone like they were devoid of value. The helmet has really done nothing to change his behavior - it's hard to have much sympathy for him. He might have been more railroaded than the rest of the chaos primarchs, but they're all hyper-privileged shits.
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Dec 29, 2020 03:11
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one good thing about the emperor’s story is that it showcases how the mistakes that led to the heresy were his mistakes and derived from his known frailties. specifically his complete lack of empathy for individuals and inability to relate to them. He thought on the species-scale so no individual’s needs or weaknesses registered to him. If he had just teleported his custodes down to nuceria, fought alongside angron’s slaves in the last battle, and then brought the survivors onboard to join the legion—hell, even if he’d left them there alive—angron would have never turned. There’d be no heresy, since the world eaters would have turned on Horus the moment he broached the topic. But the emperor couldn’t understand what angron needed in that moment and so he made his son hate him.
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Dec 29, 2020 03:19
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MrNemo posted:It should be noted that the galaxy of 40k was originally heavily influenced by 2000AD style dystopias (think judge Dredd) where horrific Draconian government was justified by the terrible world people lived in. Did dystopian hellscapes also routinely featured some society that was actually nice, typically until it encounters said Draconian system and gets murderised.
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Dec 29, 2020 03:36
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Kaal posted:I mean he's a primarch, I'm sure he'd be ok. They get shot in the head, their hearts ripped out, fatally poisoned, etc., and shrug it off. Angron gets stepped on by a titan at one point and he was totally fine. Even if it actually was unremovable due to "archeotech" hand-waving, he still has plenty of agency both before and after implantation. All the other primarchs were easily capable of bootstrapping themselves to planet-wide domination, but he was only interested in being a top gladiator and just didn't care about anyone except his one friend. That was totally on him. And later on when he was leading a legion he could have treated his Butcher's Nails like a Crown of Thorns - enduring pain for the benefit of his followers. There's plenty of examples of heroes that have to bear some sort of terrible burden. Instead he just continued treating everyone like they were devoid of value. The helmet has really done nothing to change his behavior - it's hard to have much sympathy for him. He might have been more railroaded than the rest of the chaos primarchs, but they're all hyper-privileged shits. I think you aren't really understanding the lore here. Not being able to remove the nails was not handwaving archeotech. We literally get a scene where the emperor has Angron unconscious on the operating table and shows the scans to Arkhan Land. More then half his brain is gone and replaced by the nails hardware. The emperor basically says "yeah I can maybe remove it without killing him, but if I succeed he will be missing most of his brain and will be a vegetable." The nails are dark age of technology tech and are actually incredibly sophisticated from a technology point of view and only crude in their effect. Whether he has agency or not depends on what you think Angron actually is. Pre-implantatiom Angron has no agency at all because he doesn't exist anymore, that being was scooped out and replaced. Post-implantation Angron only has agency in the sense that the nails are in the driver's seat and they are the ones with the agency. There isn't an Angron anymore in any real sense. Also, considering his primarch power is to take other's pain into himself it only makes the whole situation worse. The lore unequivocally states he would have been dead without turning into a demon prince, you can't just say "I'm sure he'd be ok." Edit: quote:
Edit 2: One more thought I had. Don't mistake the agency the world eaters show after they have been implanted as the same situation as Angron's. It's stated the legion was implanted with a much simpler version of the nails that behave more like what the emperor originally thought in the excerpt above than how Angron's work D-Pad fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 03:38
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The Butcher’s Nails are a classic example of what “archaeotech” should mean in the lore: not “gun, but better,” but “this is basically magic and we wouldn’t even know where to begin doing this ourselves.”
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Dec 29, 2020 04:25
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I understand the lore just fine, I'm just objecting to simplistic writing that doesn't stop to think about what they're saying. Primarchs recover from impossible injuries all the time, except apparently one that causes PTSD. I mean the Imperial Fists intentionally wear pain gloves that do exactly the same thing as a Butcher's Nail - but apparently Angron can't handle it? Ok sure. And then the Emperor tries to fix it, decides he can't but that it somehow isn't an issue, recognizes that Angron hates everyone and him in particular, and then decides to fast track his command? Alrighty. These are eye-rolling outcomes though I can accept them. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be in any way sympathetic with Angron throwing a Primarch-sized pout when he's expected to think of someone other than just himself. The World Eaters are my favorite Chaos Legion, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Angron for being the pathetic useless bully that he is.
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Dec 29, 2020 04:31
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I have always self-justified the Emperor‘s actions with Angron to essentially reasonable, albeit very ends-justify-the-means. We know (from The Emperor of Mankind) that The Emperor has a vague notion of many possible futures standing between him and his goal of preserving humanity from Chaos. Still, as powerful as he is, he is unable to see clearly enough to navigate a straight path from point a to b. The Emperor may have seen something like the Space Marine civil war coming due to his ability to divine the future and decided that it was better to give the opposition a broken Primarch than to spend the effort on trying to salvage what was left. Or, you know, it’s a case of the story being laid out well before the books were ever written, haha
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Dec 29, 2020 04:47
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Kaal posted:I understand the lore just fine, I'm just objecting to simplistic writing that doesn't stop to think about what they're saying. Primarchs recover from impossible injuries all the time, except apparently one that causes PTSD. I mean the Imperial Fists intentionally wear pain gloves that do exactly the same thing as a Butcher's Nail - but apparently Angron can't handle it? Ok sure. And then the Emperor tries to fix it, decides he can't but that it somehow isn't an issue, recognizes that Angron hates everyone and him in particular, and then decides to fast track his command? Alrighty. These are eye-rolling outcomes though I can accept them. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be in any way sympathetic with Angron throwing a Primarch-sized pout when he's expected to think of someone other than just himself. The World Eaters are my favorite Chaos Legion, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Angron for being the pathetic useless bully that he is. you don't understand the lore lol he also hates the Emperor for teleporting him away from his gladiator mates and denying him from dying alongside with them. he also correctly recognises the Emperor as a tyrant. he has a poo poo sandwich he has to eat, so he just succumbs to the nails to get his sweet dopamine hit. even if he could be a more productive and stable primarch (he can't) he would be a tool of a tyrant which he would hate
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Dec 29, 2020 05:06
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"I have crippling entitlement issues despite my incredible privilege so I guess I gotta murder billions of people now, YOU MADE ME DO THIS DAD".
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Dec 29, 2020 05:13
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ahh this actually gives me a book to recommend for AoS Scourge of Fate. Which is a look at Chaos culture in AoS as Chaos has been on the winning side for a long time in AoS and thus we see how some of it's people live in the seat of it's power there. It's about a Chaos Knight hoping to finally become a member of the Varanguard the elite soldiers of the Everchosen who answer only to him. Thank you for that. i will definitely check this book out. It sounds right up my alley. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:one good thing about the emperor’s story is that it showcases how the mistakes that led to the heresy were his mistakes and derived from his known frailties. specifically his complete lack of empathy for individuals and inability to relate to them. He thought on the species-scale so no individual’s needs or weaknesses registered to him. If he had just teleported his custodes down to nuceria, fought alongside angron’s slaves in the last battle, and then brought the survivors onboard to join the legion—hell, even if he’d left them there alive—angron would have never turned. There’d be no heresy, since the world eaters would have turned on Horus the moment he broached the topic. But the emperor couldn’t understand what angron needed in that moment and so he made his son hate him. Or if he had just recognized that faith and religion can be harnessed for good ends and trying to stamp them out is like trying to stamp out the need for oxygen or food. Human beings will always crave purpose and meaning in their lives and for a lot of them, like Lorgar and his children. that comes from religion. I've seen so many stupid "is the IoM fascist" debates that break down into "no it's space feudalism." Completely missing the point that the IOM's attempt to stamp outa ll religion in the galaxy is such a totalitarian undertaking that neither Hitler nor Stalin could have even conceived of it.
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Dec 29, 2020 05:37
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It should be noted that the World Eaters in part took the nails because they basically had zero connection to their primarch, who hated them, and so had them installed so that they could relate in some way.NikkolasKing posted:Or if he had just recognized that faith and religion can be harnessed for good ends and trying to stamp them out is like trying to stamp out the need for oxygen or food. Human beings will always crave purpose and meaning in their lives and for a lot of them, like Lorgar and his children. that comes from religion. The issue with this is that with out knowledge of the Old Ones and the Eldar Pantheon (which literally could also just be Old Ones and negate this point) there is absolutely zero evidence before the Hersey begins that faith/religion can have good results and instead will just devolve into chaos worship. There is absolutely zero reason for anyone to believe/know that actually faith in the Emperor/god will repel demons/chaos until it suddenly starts doing so during the heresy. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 05:37
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even if the Emperor went down with custodes and helped out angron he would still rightly believe he is a tyrant and that the imperium was hosed. like, he would have looked at one servitor, asked what the deal was then it would be game over.
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Dec 29, 2020 05:44
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Kaal posted:"I have crippling entitlement issues despite my incredible privilege so I guess I gotta murder billions of people now, YOU MADE ME DO THIS DAD". What privilege. He was a slave from day 1 who was horribly mutilated so that only anger and rage could stop constant pain that went through his body. He also never blamed the Emperor he just hated him like he hated most people cause hate is one of the few things he can feel positively. While he is a monster who needs to be put down, like Curze you can feel some sympathy for him because of how he was doomed from the start and never had a chance to be anything but a monster.
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Dec 29, 2020 05:50
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Kaal posted:I understand the lore just fine You absolutely do not if you think they are even remotely the same thing. Kaal posted:I understand the lore just fine, I'm just objecting to simplistic writing that doesn't stop to think about what they're saying. Primarchs recover from impossible injuries all the time, except apparently one that causes PTSD. I mean the Imperial Fists intentionally wear pain gloves that do exactly the same thing as a Butcher's Nail - but apparently Angron can't handle it? Ok sure. And then the Emperor tries to fix it, decides he can't but that it somehow isn't an issue, recognizes that Angron hates everyone and him in particular, and then decides to fast track his command? Alrighty. These are eye-rolling outcomes though I can accept them. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be in any way sympathetic with Angron throwing a Primarch-sized pout when he's expected to think of someone other than just himself. The World Eaters are my favorite Chaos Legion, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Angron for being the pathetic useless bully that he is. Did you even read the excerpt I posted? Your view of this is exactly what the Emperor assumed before examining Angron, but goes on to explain is wrong. It isn't just PTSD and by no means did the emperor decide that not being able to fix it wasn't a big deal and moved on with his life. To be honest, it really comes off as if you've read a lot of 1d4Chan and not any of the actual texts where Angron and his condition is explored more deeply. Kaal posted:"I have crippling entitlement issues despite my incredible privilege so I guess I gotta murder billions of people now, YOU MADE ME DO THIS DAD". This is just so far off.
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Dec 29, 2020 06:10
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Yeah good point Angron has a migraine and Curze has spooky dreams, I guess that justifies putting everyone else in torture pits. Truly they are misunderstood. Clearly I just couldn't understand the deep lore there.
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Dec 29, 2020 06:41
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Kaal posted:Yeah good point Angron has a migraine and Curze has spooky dreams, I guess that justifies putting everyone else in torture pits. Truly they are misunderstood. Clearly I just couldn't understand the deep lore there. It's a bit more then a migraine and spooky dreams. But no they are not justified, but sympathy can still be shown towards monsters. Angron and Cruze were screwed up by things they had no control over and Angron particularly never had a choice or way to become better, so you can feel some pity towards him cause he was turned into a monster rather then choosing to become one.
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Dec 29, 2020 07:02
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Okay, before you post something that every other person in the thread says is wrong, have you read Betrayer? It's really the singular work that makes Angron go from "the angry one" to "the one that wouldn't help an Emperor ever if he wasn't implanted with hideous tech". Like, saying Angron is entitled doesn't understand the character at all. He's the one who inspired his fellow slaves to revolt for their freedom, fought with them against a more advanced civilization, winning and losing until forced into an unwinnable battle where he fully expected to die with his comrades, when his supposed creator decides at that moment to come down, rescue him and none of his comrades, who die especially badly without him there, and any ability to emphasize any with the Emperor's choice is completely gone because of the tech in his brain! Betrayer is a great name because it could refer to multiple characters. But Angron goes so far as to say that if he didn't have the nails, he would have rebelled against the Emperor earlier because he's a tyrant. Hardly entitled.
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Dec 29, 2020 07:04
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Kaal posted:Yeah good point Angron has a migraine and Curze has spooky dreams, I guess that justifies putting everyone else in torture pits. Truly they are misunderstood. Clearly I just couldn't understand the deep lore there. Oh I see, you're just shitposting. Carry on.
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Dec 29, 2020 07:09
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Such an entitled baby who wants to live free or die in a slave revolt. Much privilege, this angry slave. This has been a PragerU production.
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Dec 29, 2020 07:19
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Ardent Communist posted:But Angron goes so far as to say that if he didn't have the nails, he would have rebelled against the Emperor earlier because he's a tyrant. Hardly entitled. Angron without the nails would be a pissed-off anarchist demigod, throwing bombs at the Emperor and roaring “gently caress hierarchies of oppression!” 
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Dec 29, 2020 07:22
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Angron's real crime was inflicting the nails on his legion.
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Dec 29, 2020 08:45
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Ardent Communist posted:Betrayer is a great name because it could refer to multiple characters. My favorite part of this is that the only character it really doesn't apply to is Khârn the Betrayer. Everybody else betrays somebody, but not him.
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Dec 29, 2020 09:32
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Kaal posted:"I have crippling entitlement issues despite my incredible privilege so I guess I gotta murder billions of people now, YOU MADE ME DO THIS DAD". Cf Donald J Trump, 2020. Truly 40k lore is as deep as reality.
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Dec 29, 2020 11:34
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Khizan posted:My favorite part of this is that the only character it really doesn't apply to is Khârn the Betrayer. Everybody else betrays somebody, but not him. That's the delicious ironic twist I loved the most.
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Dec 29, 2020 12:37
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Reading Thousand Sons right now and just a weird, random thought I had from Magnus talking about how limited those trapped in the body are, how the senses of the Warp are so much vaster and greater than anything the body can experience. I did not get a particularly great sense of the daemon in Fulgrim and maybe I'm thinking too much of Dragon Age Demons here but I feel like Magnus' views are the opposite of actual Warp entities. Magnus, a flesh-and-blood creature, thinks the Warp offers superior sensation while Daemons long for the material world and reality for experience. Again, this is maybe a DA bias coming through but demons always want to get "over here" so badly because of the things one can only experience "over here."
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Dec 29, 2020 13:13
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Angron's real crime was inflicting the nails on his legion. In fairness I don't think Angron really gave a poo poo about what his legion did. Even when they got the Nails implanted all he did was start giving them loving challenge quests that were near impossible so he could teleport down when they failed, kill everything and tell the all how worthless they were compared to his gladiator buddies. Angron was an idealist who was broken in body and mind by the despots on the planet he was on and broken in spirit by the Emperor zapping him away from his glorious last stand with his comrades. That said, he is utterly broken and just continues the cycle of abuse with his own Legion, who do the equivalent of trying to bond with your abusive alcoholic step dad by taking up drinking straight vodka by the litre. I think it's another thing that comes from the Nails as well. It's clear that all the other primarchs feel instant kinship with their legion when they see them, the equivalent to someone being introduced to a kid they didn't know they had (in the sense that you might not be a parent but the knowledge, typically, causes people to assign this kid some special moral and emotional weight). Angron is physically incapable of feeling that now, I think all he's got are the memories of those feelings from before the Nails, which means he is incapable of establishing an emotional connection other than hate to anybody ever again. Also in terms of geneseed purity - I think it's canon that the 'purest' (or at least most stable) geneseeds were the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels and, oddly, the Alpha Legion. Arguably the Salanders are fine too as their 'impurity' was introduced deliberately (I think Vulkan, Russ and Alpharius/Omegon were all 'special' projects where the Emperor was doing something out of the ordinary) and doesn't seem to cause them any problems.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:07
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there are a lot of angron apologists who imagine him as this noble freedom fighter who hated his father for his tyranny, and maybe he justified his actions to himself that way, but if that angron ever existed he died on the operating table. nails-angron was such a fundamentally different person from non-nails angron and the latter never got a chance to grow up so we don’t know what he would have done. it’s pretty clear that nails-angron’s actual loyalty was to his gladiator pals, not some abstract idea of freedom. if they had survived he would be perfectly content to psychotically butcher millions in the emperor’s name until the machines in his skull killed him. it’s a mistake to think of the nails as an injury, though. they scooped out big portions of his brain. Primarchs are tough but they can die, and they can also suffer permanent maiming. the nails permanently altered angron’s mind in a way that can never be taken back because he doesn’t have those parts of his brain anymore.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:24
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NikkolasKing posted:Thank you for that. i will definitely check this book out. It sounds right up my alley. I second the recommendation for Scourge of Fate. The fact it has a Chaos jousting tournament is great too. Not to mention a lot of neat commentary from the viewpoint of an Undivided agent of chaos when we usually get someone sworn to a single one.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:05
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:there are a lot of angron apologists who imagine him as this noble freedom fighter who hated his father for his tyranny, and maybe he justified his actions to himself that way, but if that angron ever existed he died on the operating table. nails-angron was such a fundamentally different person from non-nails angron and the latter never got a chance to grow up so we don’t know what he would have done. The effect of the nails is degenerative, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that his hatred of the Emperor as a tyrant is an honest hangover from a less-damaged Angron. It's just that by the time of Betrayer it's been curdled by decades of spite and massive brain damage.
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Dec 29, 2020 17:48
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The tragedy of Angron isn't that he was a noble fighter brought low. His tragedy is that the noble fighter is what he could have been but never was because he never had the chance. He was never noble, never more than a butcher and the fleeting glimpses of what might have been are just that.
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Dec 29, 2020 18:08
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:if they had survived he would be perfectly content to psychotically butcher millions in the emperor’s name until the machines in his skull killed him. Hard disagree, the books make it pretty clear that if Angron wasn't utterly broken and in control of himself he would have told big E to shove it
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Dec 29, 2020 18:16
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It never stops being funny that 40K allows you to have sincere, thoughtful discussions about the motivations of a man called Angron. A big, angry man. Angry old Angron. EDIT: 
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Dec 29, 2020 19:18
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Demon Primarch of KoRn
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Dec 29, 2020 19:32
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Angry Ron and the World Munchers
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Dec 29, 2020 19:36
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Cooked Auto posted:I second the recommendation for Scourge of Fate. The fact it has a Chaos jousting tournament is great too. I'm a pretty big Undivided guy, at least of the more 'religious" type like the Word Bearers so this is extra incentive to read the story. I was asking about if AOS had an equivalent to a Dark Apostle and was told it does have priests and the like. Warshrines, Slaughterpriests, etc.. I'm just a fluff and lore reader for most things but AOS might be the first thing I actually try to learn to play. It made me curious where GW's revenue mostly comes from because as expensive as all the novels can get when added up together, these single sets of figures and the like are way, way more expensive. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 19:43
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Seems very likely that they are selling a lot more novels than mini sets, getting an army going is a much bigger commitment than grabbing the occasional ebook.
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Dec 29, 2020 19:55
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Improbable Lobster posted:Angry Ron and the World Munchers Who invaded Armageddon, which was later in turn invaded by Margaret Thatcher, twice.
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Dec 29, 2020 20:01
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:It never stops being funny that 40K allows you to have sincere, thoughtful discussions about the motivations of a man called Angron. No one in the history of ever has held a sword like that, daemon or not Maybe he is in the middle of some kind of display routine
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Dec 29, 2020 20:54
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Arcsquad12 posted:The tragedy of Angron isn't that he was a noble fighter brought low. His tragedy is that the noble fighter is what he could have been but never was because he never had the chance. He was never noble, never more than a butcher and the fleeting glimpses of what might have been are just that. Like an allegory for cruel and inhumane systems that destroy mind, body and soul. e; lol 
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Dec 29, 2020 21:53
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I'm Cato Sicarius's torso waving to the crowd.
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Dec 29, 2020 22:05
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