|
Finicums Wake posted:levins points out how these different mathematical models, in some cases, are able to capture more precisely what dialectics was always getting at. for example, the notion that quantitative shifts cause qualitative ones is captured by the modern notion of a phase shift, he claims. he points out ways in which these models are unable to capture other elements of dialectic thinking as well. but it seems to me the main difference is that 'systems thinking' is a loose assemblage of tools, and dialectics, as levins conceives it, is more like a critically self-conscious scientific research program, one which could deploy these 'systems thinking' models but is not reducible to them. it makes sense to me. while systems thinking is essentially a collection of tools, i wouldn't call it loose anymore, it's all part of more or less coherent methodologies. "systems thinking" has largely fallen out of use tho. i think today the methods fall under complexity and dynamical systems depending on subject matter. for example, while it is pretty lib poo poo as far as some conclusions (vote!), here is a fairly recent article applying complexity to US elections. necsi also offer relatively accessible courses if you're interested. imo levins was right. surgicalontologist who I think posted earlier itt wrote some great effortposts on systems thinking adjacent methods for behavior and philosophy of mind, like ... 10 years ago? lmao. it's an interesting topic, maybe he can add some thoughts.
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:10 |
|
|
KaptainKrunk posted:most people in the soviet union wanted it to persist, it's just that there were no independent means of organizing for its existence outside of the party, which Gorbachev effectively destroyed. Civil-social groups in the USSR were always treated with kids gloves and more or less became transmission belts for party doctrine. The only groups capable of were associations of black market profiteers, managers, and disgruntled intelligentsia upset they couldn't live like Americans. another argument for factions. hmm
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
What are people's take on national chauvinism in Marxist states? However much I can appreciate China's rise as a curtail on US imperialism, the attitude towards minorities there especially recently is just disgusting. I understand that Lenin and (I presume) Mao took steps to protect minorities but that all seems to be being undone. And I see Chinese state officials regurgitating the same stereotypes about Uighurs as people in the west do about other Muslims. Not to mention what's happening to Mongols in Inner Mongolia. I've posted about this before in the Asia thread and all I get is the same arguments from an international relations perspective or whatever, but it still doesn't sit right with me. Interesting article about this but the journal is definitely anti CCP https://madeinchinajournal.com/2020/09/25/undoing-lenin-on-the-recent-changes-to-chinas-ethnic-policy/ ToxicAcne fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jan 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 21:55
|
|
|
i'm going to quote someone i know because i like how he put itquote:it's one of those things where there's a coherent argument that the definition of genocide should include what's going on, but if you actually applied it evenly you would find that the uk did several hundred genocides and we are doing like three or four right now. what's going on in western china is bad, but mostly for more mundane reasons of cultural chauvinism, the everyday shittiness of hostile police forces, and various forms of coercing people into participating in the national wage labor market. the government is way more liberal than the public on minority issues in china, and the public in turn are somewhat more accepting of minority cultures having a place in the country than in several neighboring countries. in fact the problem is precisely that they're listening too much to the liberal stuff because they're abandoning the soviet nationalities model and want to build a western melting pot, and are trying to take the most simple liberal criticisms of how the west actually did that and apply it in naïve fashion: for example they don't want to be seen as repressing islam in general, so they try to identify a good and bad islam, and come up with various theological doctrines and ritual practices associated with each, and layer in judgments about national and separatist identity, which may or may not be defensible in theory, but then when time comes to apply in practice, it means cops and spies caring a lot about whether your mosque conducts services in arabic or some central asian language other than uighur, and getting mad if they can't quickly figure out who someone is quoting or referencing, and a dozen other situations where the details of religious life are not readily legible to the police bureaucracy, generating suspicion and hostility that they're free to take as probable cause or whatever their analogue is. like, they're basically trying to be more woke than us about it, while also doing a hell of a lot more of it and more comprehensively transformative and in everyone's face than we would (whereas the instinct of liberal interventionists when confronted with messy effects from disruptive policies is to minimize things, fiddle with edge cases, target more narrowly), and that generates extreme contradictions quote:do we know that maoist and/or bolivarian communes aren’t happening? yes
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 22:49
|
|
|
Hmm that makes some more sense to me. I guess I just have to make peace with the fact that China is more or less a Keynesian honeymoon era economy (which is much better than neoliberalism I must add). It's just that those who talk about the glory of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Xi thought that I cant take completely seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 23:59
|
|
|
the question of china is always how serious or how much you believe the leadership is genuine about using the political power of the communist party in China to actually "do socialism" once the primary directive is achieved, of "enough development to do socialism". this will be an arbitrary point that either the chinese communist party will work foward to, or they will not and fall to undirected capitalist accumulation
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:15
|
|
|
what metrics even exist to determine how much development is enough to Do Socialism
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:18
|
|
|
indigi posted:what metrics even exist to determine how much development is enough to Do Socialism vaguely "to do welfare like western countries"
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
it might straight up be "enough to beat the USA"
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:22
|
|
|
is that target being revised with the american empire being in decline
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
yr new gurlfrand! posted:is that target being revised with the american empire being in decline I mean excepting an asteroid it’s still around 50 years out
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:38
|
|
|
The slogan of the USSRs plans was 'Overtake and surpass the USA' until 1966, it's an abstract and meaningless threshold particularly as it's relative (as has been pointed out).
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
After the character assassination and life imprisonment of Bo Xilai, I don't know if China plans on doing the transition to Communism anytime soon. Which means I'm still learning mandarin because it's more likely than the usa improving lmao Edit:not a China expert though. Read a bunch about it a few years ago and talked to a friend of mine who was a Chinese exchange student at my uni SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jan 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 04:22
|
|
|
ToxicAcne posted:What are people's take on national chauvinism in Marxist states? However much I can appreciate China's rise as a curtail on US imperialism, the attitude towards minorities there especially recently is just disgusting. I understand that Lenin and (I presume) Mao took steps to protect minorities but that all seems to be being undone. And I see Chinese state officials regurgitating the same stereotypes about Uighurs as people in the west do about other Muslims. Not to mention what's happening to Mongols in Inner Mongolia. AFAICT, nationalism pretty much breeds national chauvinism on its own. Communists had to constantly push against the chauvinism by calling for national pride around helping other nationalities liberate themselves and living in cooperation, without exploiting them. Those who don’t genuinely believe in ”the other”’s own abilities and motives easily fall into chauvinism in all things, even if they consider themselves a supporter of ”the other”. Once the foreign policy of these countries turned from that to being nations that would internally develop their country faster than anyone else could while taking a rather passive role internationally, it was just a matter of time. Pride around internal economic development is pretty much the same as bourgeois national pride, and it inherently assigns a national mission to take a paternalistic role over ”unproductive” peoples to make them productive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 06:39
|
|
|
China is officially "moderately developed" economically so they probably see themselves as at the halfway point if they are still committed to the transition
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 06:52
|
|
|
I choose to believe that the CCP has not given up on communism, but that many middle and senior officials are probably somewhat disillusioned, while young people are seemingly likely to believe strongly in the Party's goals, as seen by the occasional labor struggle continuing to arise. If you ask me it would mbe a failed communist project to not have occasional struggles like this, as communism is iterative at its core, and there is no such thing as a correct solution. Most importantly, you absolutely cannot trust any reporting about what the CCP may or may not be doing to minority groups, and especially if you're American you should remember that we really cant thrown stones considering we are letting one of our strongest allies perform an ethnic extermination campaign while we ourselves have been performing an ethnic removal campaign for the last 20 years. Not to mention fun little details like almost all of the United States native culture being lost to literal genocide, and the rest being largely eroded by intentional cultural assimilation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 11:11
|
|
|
this is over a decade old, but is a reliable account of what the behind-the-scenes debates on socialism are like: https://people.umass.edu/dmkotz/articles/State_of_Official_Marxism_07_05.pdf
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 11:37
|
|
|
indigi posted:what metrics even exist to determine how much development is enough to Do Socialism that's the problem. What the party theoreticians (the commie ones) argue, from my limited understanding, is this: okay, Deng happened, we got on this track, Xi likes it, so we are a state capitalist, market intervention economy that is going through a fast-track capital accumulation phase thanks to our trade position and general desire from foreign capital to break into our market. We don't like it, but we can use that. So what we propose is a strategy to seize excess foreign capital from overfinancialized/post-industrial rich economies to catapult us into a developed market economy, but state-managed and state-driven even in terms of domestic consumption, which, once considered the scale of labor and effort necessary to provide to the Chinese population, will inevitably bring the self-destructive contradictions of capitalism into conflict with the Chinese state in a scale that it simply must change towards socialism for its maintenance, continuity and prosperity; being fundamentally a state capitalist economy, the mechanisms of action are well under command of the Party, which is a fundamental element of this strategy to work, as the CCP is a much different actor in that sense rather than an independent capitalist class. Their own self-critique in that regard is: well, hold the gently caress on for a second. The reason why we are doing well in the capitalist game have much more to do with the underlying conditions of before, or in other words, because of Maoism. So we broke with Maoism to use a capitalist acceleration strategy when that strategy is only viable because Maoism made our state capable of this level of organization, so why the hell we didn't stick to economic development through Maoism in the first place? dead gay comedy forums fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:So we broke with Maoism to use a capitalist acceleration strategy when that strategy is only viable because Maoism made our state capable of this level of organization, so why the hell we didn't stick to economic development through Maoism in the first place? because to raise your productive forces from a low level you need to engage with richer and more advanced states. the USSR was able to trade with the west upto WW2 and gain technical knowhow and capital from the USA and Weimar Germany and other places because the cold war hadn't happened yet. after the sino soviet split the PRC had nowhere to go but the west, which was far less accomodating now that the communist cat was out of the bag and demanded liberalization as a price.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:
this may be the most complicated sentence I've ever fully understood
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:this may be the most complicated sentence I've ever fully understood its impressive. i dont think couldve come up with something that convoluted f
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 19:44
|
|
|
the key is to connect all your thoughts with commas and semi-colons, and optimally to be sleep deprived and on at least one stimulant
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
loving lmao, ADHD owning my rear end hard these days
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 20:13
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:loving lmao, ADHD owning my rear end hard these days now now, you could also just be german
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 20:16
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:loving lmao, ADHD owning my rear end hard these days left that part out but yeah that's related or at least supplies the sims (many such cases)
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 20:17
|
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:the key is to connect all your thoughts with commas and semi-colons, and optimally to be sleep deprived and on at least one stimulant dead gay comedy forums posted:loving lmao, ADHD owning my rear end hard these days the urheimat of all effortposts
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
lollontee posted:the urheimat of all effortposts you made me look up a word if i had money and also if the ancient backend took my preferred scrub-rear end payment methods i'd buy you some forum thing but instead you get a post
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 21:13
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:now now, you could also just be german Brazilian :| also I am on my meds but perhaps nicotine withdrawal might be playing a part here never theorypost without the right drugs
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 21:52
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:Brazilian :| 
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 22:04
|
|
|
if youre fascinated by genetics, linguistics, the history of peoples migrations in the early bronze age, ideological histories of religions, basically youre ideologically doomed
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:Brazilian :| german has stupidly long sentences and also words
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:german has stupidly long sentences and also words someone told me that german basically doesn't have rules about comma splices so german sentences just keep growing and growing
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2021 23:53
|
|
|
Finicums Wake posted:someone told me that german basically doesn't have rules about comma splices so german sentences just keep growing and growing p much. my history essays after completing german in college kept getting dinged for run-ons and i blame the german mindset
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2021 01:11
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/tokyo_vamp/status/1352000448157376513
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2021 16:58
|
|
|
Hahaha https://twitter.com/lukeoneil47/status/1353764294429728768?s=21
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
i hope a character named Trace Trelden shows up and disrespects all the women
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2021 21:53
|
|
|
Finicums Wake posted:this is over a decade old, but is a reliable account of what the behind-the-scenes debates on socialism are like: i think reading the liberalization arguments in that ironed out some of the wrinkles in my brain
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2021 02:52
|
|
|
Makes u think...
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2021 02:53
|
|
|
Remembering, fondly and blissfully, that the new modern warfare game 1) accuses russia of multiple specific warcrimes committed by amerika in real life and 2) stars a female ypg soldier
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2021 02:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:10 |
|
|
It was pretty epic, yes. It was somehow more brazenly patriotic than the ending of Black Ops 1 where you swim up from the russian undersea base and there's a bunch of American flags waving off of ships while jets fly overhead in formation, like a football game. However they made her a serious babe so I can't complain.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2021 03:10
|
|