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Inspector_666 posted:But Magnus himself also proves that discerning the good and bad in the warp is pretty drat difficult given that he's been consorting with daemons for uh, his entire life and thinking they're all just helpful dudes who wanna hang. Oh, definitely agreed. If Emps was a good gene-dad and just gathered his sons and went "Alright guys, most of the Warp is bad news because of X, Y and Z, let's review the Aeldari downfall just in case, we are working to insulate humanity from its worst aspects by doing THIS, look here I told all of this to Malcador and he hasn't been corrupted so it kinda works", there'd be no plot. But that aside...is the Emperor's plan really, you know...effective? He wants to shield mankind's growing psychic presence from the warp by taking over the Webway. You know who else had the Webway? The Eldar. Who mass-died by chaotic overload. He'd just be making Navigators obsolete, and that seems like a really small thing in the grand scheme of things. Are navigators even that bad a corruption threat? Doens't seem that way, in 30K or 40k.
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Jan 27, 2021 18:31
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Sephyr posted:Then Magnus had a point at Nikea and being able to study the warp and tell the useful entities from the malevolent ones is an important undertaking. It all keeps coming back to the Emperor being a paranoid rear end in a top hat and not trusting the key actors of his plan with knowledge related to his project and their role in it. Magnus spoke with conviction about matters he did not truly understand, he claimed to have great knowledge about the warp and yet he was ignorant about the truth of it all, condemned others for being too narrow minded while he was too prideful to admit he might be wrong. In short, Magnus was a fool and got hosed as a result. Inspector_666 posted:But Magnus himself also proves that discerning the good and bad in the warp is pretty drat difficult given that he's been consorting with daemons for uh, his entire life and thinking they're all just helpful dudes who wanna hang. Telling people about Chaos might not have been a good idea either, especially not to people like Magnus or Lorgar, who literally salivate at the thoughts of hidden powers and forbidden knowledge. Honestly, the Emperor's plan was dead in the water when the baby primarchs were snatched by Chaos and scattered through the galaxy. Trying to salvage it by rediscovering the now adult primarchs he couldn't groom from birth, putting the majority of all the Imperium's military power on their hands and hurring off to finish the Webway project was a huge gamble that did not pay off and was probably a bad idea in hindsight.
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Jan 27, 2021 18:31
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Angry Lobster posted:Honestly, the Emperor's plan was dead in the water when the baby primarchs were snatched by Chaos and scattered through the galaxy. someone hasn't read saturnine yet 
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Jan 27, 2021 18:49
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:someone hasn't read saturnine yet Erda helped, sure, doesn't change much in the great scheme of things.
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Jan 27, 2021 18:59
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Dog_Meat posted:Not read it for a LOOOOOONG time, but didn't he teach Horus this? I seem to remember that when Jubal got posessed and Loken was contemplating it afterwards, Horus explained about warp entities?
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Jan 27, 2021 19:10
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Arquinsiel posted:That's still the same problem. One dude knowing some of the truth isn't enough. Gotta have redundancies and teamwork. There were 19 more primarchs to carry that load with Horus. Forget which book it is, but Malcador and Dorn had this exact discussion right before (or during) the Siege. Maclador says that Dorn (and probably others) would not have been able to tolerate an enemy who was so incredibly alien and difficult to really comprehend. They would have researched and studied, and eventually fallen because of this drive to understand it. As I recall, Dorn agreed with the sentiment.
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Jan 27, 2021 19:47
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Shroud posted:Forget which book it is, but Malcador and Dorn had this exact discussion right before (or during) the Siege. Maclador says that Dorn (and probably others) would not have been able to tolerate an enemy who was so incredibly alien and difficult to really comprehend. They would have researched and studied, and eventually fallen because of this drive to understand it. As I recall, Dorn agreed with the sentiment. it's in The Solar War, I think, or early in The Lost and the Damned. Malcador says that Dorn would have tried to attack Chaos on the physical plane alone, because that's what he understands, and so would have been defeated by it. You actually get a great sense of this with Perturabo (who, of all the primarchs, I think most benefits from the increased screen time he gets in the Siege series). He's probably the smartest primarch in terms of raw computational power, and he certainly has the most sophisticated understanding of technology. You can clearly see what Russ was talking about when he talked about the separate roles for each primarch: Perturabo was clearly meant to lead the Imperium's technological development. He also has a healthy disdain for warp corruption. But he is monstrously arrogant and assumes that the Warp is simply a form of exotic energy and matter with entities living in it. He doesn't understand the spiritual side of it, and so all his attempts to learn to master this "energy" and turn it into weapons for himself to use are doomed. In the end he's going to end up a howling daemon like the rest of them, because he doesn't get that Chaos isn't just like "plasma" or "electricity."
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Jan 27, 2021 19:55
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Shroud posted:Forget which book it is, but Malcador and Dorn had this exact discussion right before (or during) the Siege. Maclador says that Dorn (and probably others) would not have been able to tolerate an enemy who was so incredibly alien and difficult to really comprehend. They would have researched and studied, and eventually fallen because of this drive to understand it. As I recall, Dorn agreed with the sentiment. It's not like there were 17 other primarchs to share the burden, though, right? Dorn could happily be the custodian of the physical realm against manifestations of Chaos, and let Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius and the Khan deal with the more metaphysical aspects. Besides, he seems to have fared well fighting chaos for centuries after the Heresy.
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Jan 27, 2021 20:36
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Sephyr posted:It's not like there were 17 other primarchs to share the burden, though, right? Dorn could happily be the custodian of the physical realm against manifestations of Chaos, and let Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius and the Khan deal with the more metaphysical aspects. Besides, he seems to have fared well fighting chaos for centuries after the Heresy. Gotta hand it to Dorn, there.
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Jan 27, 2021 20:59
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Sephyr posted:It's not like there were 17 other primarchs to share the burden, though, right? Dorn could happily be the custodian of the physical realm against manifestations of Chaos, and let Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius and the Khan deal with the more metaphysical aspects. Besides, he seems to have fared well fighting chaos for centuries after the Heresy. I reaaally don't see a way for Logar to not immediately fall to chaos when dealing with it since it basically gives him everything he wants. There is basically no situation where the Emp goes "Okay worship me as a god I guess". Magnus is literally going to do what many many inquisition agents do and research to deep and/or think that just a little experimentation or utilization is no big deal.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:08
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Sephyr posted:It's not like there were 17 other primarchs to share the burden, though, right? Dorn could happily be the custodian of the physical realm against manifestations of Chaos, and let Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius and the Khan deal with the more metaphysical aspects. Besides, he seems to have fared well fighting chaos for centuries after the Heresy.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:14
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Sephyr posted:Oh, definitely agreed. If Emps was a good gene-dad and just gathered his sons and went "Alright guys, most of the Warp is bad news because of X, Y and Z, let's review the Aeldari downfall just in case, we are working to insulate humanity from its worst aspects by doing THIS, look here I told all of this to Malcador and he hasn't been corrupted so it kinda works", there'd be no plot. The eldar used the webway for travel. The Emperor's plan was to move the entire human race into the webway full time. This was to shield them from the warp while humans awakened as a psychic race. Emps would be able to shepherd that process without fear of chaos interference or possession and eventually when everybody was at his level they could come back out and obliterate the chaos gods with a thought.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:28
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It should be noted that the D Eldar got out pretty well from the birth of slannesh because their central hub was mostly shielded due to being in the web way.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:30
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Guyver posted:In the same conversation Malcador said out right there was only one primarch that wouldn't be corrupted. Didn't say which but we know which it wasn't. As if there is any question or doubt who he meant.
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Jan 27, 2021 22:19
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MariusLecter posted:Gotta hand it to Dorn, there. Unfortunately... You can't. Dorn ain't got no handsssss
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Jan 27, 2021 23:13
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MariusLecter posted:As if there is any question or doubt who he meant. Alpharius
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Jan 27, 2021 23:14
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Immanentized posted:Unfortunately... He has a hand, singular. It's currently used for the Imperial Fists' modern arts project.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:31
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Arcsquad12 posted:He has a hand, singular. It's currently used for the Imperial Fists' modern arts project. It's good to get the family involved in art projects.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:38
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As a Reddit thread said, The Emperor is just a vain Terran warlords with delusions of grandeur. And while I still have much to read, it sounds like book after book stresses how uncaring he is. The aforementioned Master of Mankind is high up on my list already even before I heard it goes into details about his plans for Magnus because I've heard it clearly lays out what a shithead he is. All the visions Chaos shows the Primarchs are true, it seems. He did plan to dispose of the Space Marines just like those Thunder Warriors.
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Jan 28, 2021 00:13
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:it's in The Solar War, I think, or early in The Lost and the Damned. Malcador says that Dorn would have tried to attack Chaos on the physical plane alone, because that's what he understands, and so would have been defeated by it. I think one of the aspects of the Heresy books that have generally been pulled off well is showing the actual Daemon Primarch's ascension. Horus aside in the early books, Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and Magnus' full ascensions to daemonhood always were pretty frightening and messed up, Angron especially. I'm hoping they get to Perturabo's ascension at the Iron Cage in the inevitable Scouring series, and give it to French or Wraight.
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Jan 28, 2021 00:54
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MariusLecter posted:As if there is any question or doubt who he meant. I'm not super well-steeped in the Heresy-era stuff who who does he mean? Sanginius is always "the best among us" and all that, but also *gestures at The Thirst*
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Jan 28, 2021 01:36
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NikkolasKing posted:As a Reddit thread said, The Emperor is just a vain Terran warlords with delusions of grandeur. None of this is true, or it might be. There are many different depictions of the emperor in the lore, including ones showing him as a caring father. It changes depending on circumstance and who is seeing him. This is on purpose as stated by BL and multiple authors. There is no "one" or "true" emperor. Even in Master of Mankind we see multiple differing views of him. We don't know if he is a Terran warlord or something else. Or at least whether that was his origin, we know he was a Terran warlord at one point before unity but there are multiple stories in the lore about where he came from. In fact, Erda is probably the most reliable source and she gives a different account. Don't listen to reddit or 40k memes in general if you want accurate views of the lore. r/40klore is fine if you need facts like when did x do y but other than that it's pretty crappy. Edit: oh yeah, while there are hints the heresy might have been planned or at least expected there is nothing in the lore about the emperor planning on getting rid of space marines like he did with thunder warriors.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:00
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Inspector_666 posted:I'm not super well-steeped in the Heresy-era stuff who who does he mean? Most likely the Lion
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Jan 28, 2021 02:04
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D-Pad posted:None of this is true, or it might be. There are many different depictions of the emperor in the lore, including ones showing him as a caring father. It changes depending on circumstance and who is seeing him. This is on purpose as stated by BL and multiple authors. There is no "one" or "true" emperor. Even in Master of Mankind we see multiple differing views of him. If anything there's evidence that he planned to keep them on giving all the weird non-combat legion specialties and such.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:08
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D-Pad posted:Most likely the Lion Oh right, that makes sense.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:10
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D-Pad posted:Most likely the Lion I can't imagine Guilliman or Dorn being corrupted either. All the rest of them, sure, yeah, I could see it.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:28
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D-Pad posted:None of this is true, or it might be. There are many different depictions of the emperor in the lore, including ones showing him as a caring father. It changes depending on circumstance and who is seeing him. This is on purpose as stated by BL and multiple authors. There is no "one" or "true" emperor. Even in Master of Mankind we see multiple differing views of him. Yeah I agree with all this. That said, I find the idea that the Emperor was a Terran superweapon that got out of hand to be my favorite interpretation.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:48
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VanSandman posted:Yeah I agree with all this. That said, I find the idea that the Emperor was a Terran superweapon that got out of hand to be my favorite interpretation. Yeah I think the idea that he's some Dark Age tech that Malcador was actually running is the coolest explanation.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:51
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D-Pad posted:None of this is true, or it might be. There are many different depictions of the emperor in the lore, including ones showing him as a caring father. It changes depending on circumstance and who is seeing him. This is on purpose as stated by BL and multiple authors. There is no "one" or "true" emperor. Even in Master of Mankind we see multiple differing views of him. Isn't that what turned Horus? He was informed he and the Primarchs were to be discarded? I guess the Primarchs aren't Space Marines but I figured he meant they were all to be thrown aside at the end of the Great Crusade. A big moral of the first three books is how alien the SM's aer, how they know nothing but fighting. They were bred for war and nothing else. And when you hear of the horrors it takes to become a Death Guard...I don't think they could do anything else. But really, it comes down to character. The Emperor is a genocidal, racist, lying despot who has betrayed and killed his sons and allies. The Imperium even at its best was spending a lot of its time killing peaceful humans. And as the despot of all mankind, he is responsible for every sin the Imperium commits. Why should we believe any evil is beyond him? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 03:01
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NikkolasKing posted:Isn't that what turned Horus? He was informed he and the Primarchs were to be discarded? He's shown a future where he's been written out of history and all sorts of stuff that the Great Crusade is actively against have come to pass, but it's also the future we know happens as a result of the Heresy, so we're still left with the question of what could have been. It's all very paradoxical. Even if Horus doesn't turn it seems like the treaty with Mars would have absolutely fallen apart at some point regardless of what else happened so who knows. NikkolasKing posted:A big moral of the first three books is how alien the SM's aer, how they know nothing but fighting. They were bred for war and nothing else. And when you hear of the horrors it takes to become a Death Guard...I don't think they could do anything else. Part of this is also because the traitor Primarchs all buy into the idea that war is all there is (I mean, several loyal ones too, but none of the ones who fall save maybe Lorgar envision their legions doing anything else ever) as compared to guys like Guilliman who is incredibly specific and explicit that Ultramarines have to be able to serve in the peace that follows. Throw in what he says to Dante at the end of Devastation Of Baal implying that Chapters will have to stop letting their homeworlds be death world hellholes... I mean clearly The Emperor was also fine with the idea that Marines are only for killing and nothing else since he didn't put a stop to Angron giving his guys the fuckin' nails, but it doesn't seem to be an absolute or inherent in the program. Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 03:13
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NikkolasKing posted:Isn't that what turned Horus? He was informed he and the Primarchs were to be discarded? I guess the Primarchs aren't Space Marines but I figured he meant they were all to be thrown aside at the end of the Great Crusade. A big moral of the first three books is how alien the SM's aer, how they know nothing but fighting. They were bred for war and nothing else. And when you hear of the horrors it takes to become a Death Guard...I don't think they could do anything else. Chaos showed Horus a vision of current 40k and told him that was the Emperor's plan all along. It wasn't and it only came about because Horus believed it and rebelled. That's the tragedy of the heresy. I'm not sure how you got that out of the first three HH books. Those books depiction of the space marines is the most noble they are in all the lore. Yes, it highlighted their fighting prowess because they are space marines, but they went out of their way to attempt peace and bloodless compliance whenever it was a possibility. They allowed the remembrancer order to do their thing and protected them. The current loyalists space marines are worse than any of the pre-Istvaan marines save the world eaters and night Lords. The emperor was certainly an ends justify the means dude, but had his plan worked it arguably would have been worth it. The only other options for humanity is extinction or eternal damnation. Inspector_666 posted:
The Dark Angels were the Emperor's plan should Mars rebel. They were given a ton of dark age weapons that Mars didn't even know were possible much less had. The Lion's flagship had a secret section filled to the brim with the stuff used in the dark age like sun killers and worse. Luther touches on it. Anyway, I got some oldhammer books to read: 
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Jan 28, 2021 04:01
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D-Pad posted:
Holy poo poo yes
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Jan 28, 2021 05:05
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D-Pad posted:The Dark Angels were the Emperor's plan should Mars rebel. They were given a ton of dark age weapons that Mars didn't even know were possible much less had. The Lion's flagship had a secret section filled to the brim with the stuff used in the dark age like sun killers and worse. Luther touches on it. I should probably add Luther to my book list, I want to read more about the Dark Angels but they seem to suffer from being too "iconic" and end up with lots of bad dumb books about them.
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Jan 28, 2021 05:19
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Inspector_666 posted:I should probably add Luther to my book list, I want to read more about the Dark Angels but they seem to suffer from being too "iconic" and end up with lots of bad dumb books about them. The way the fallen/unforgiven have been handled in the lore in the past has been pretty bad. Luther is excellent though. I highly recommend everybody get it when the regular version comes out. I may like it better than Valdor to be honest. Very minor spoilers about the overall setting/plot of the book: Luther is captured by the Dark Angels when Caliban blows up and the Lion "dies". Only the chapter master of the Dark Angels (and the watchers) know that he is their prisoner. The book is a succession of DA chapter masters over 10k years interrogating him. Each time, Luther tells a story about his time in the legion pre-heresy and even pre-emperor coming to Caliban. It's really cool as you get to see how the DA has changed over time as each new chapter master that decides to talk/listen to him has different viewpoints on the whole thing and can't help but let slip things that are happening to the chapter and their evolving feelings towards the fallen. Then the rest is a series of short stories from Luther's POV about pre-heresy Dark Angels, most of it happening before the emperor ever came to Caliban so you get a ton of lore about the knightly orders and Caliban monsters and what happened when the Lion showed up. It is brilliant setup/framing for the story.
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Jan 28, 2021 05:44
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Inspector_666 posted:I should probably add Luther to my book list, I want to read more about the Dark Angels but they seem to suffer from being too "iconic" and end up with lots of bad dumb books about them. I just finished Lion El'jonson: Lord of the First and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. I was expecting it to be boring because of how "perfect" the 1st Legion is, and I was worried that the Lion would be basically just characterized like a mini Emperor, but there was a surprising amount of inner turmoil and characterization. Lion El'jonson struggles a lot with trying to live up to being "the first", all the while never getting the celebrations and laurels that figures like Horus or Fulgrim get.
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Jan 28, 2021 05:46
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D-Pad posted:Chaos showed Horus a vision of current 40k and told him that was the Emperor's plan all along. It wasn't and it only came about because Horus believed it and rebelled. That's the tragedy of the heresy. I never said they weren't noble, I said they were bred for war and that's all they know which is a point that does come up multiple times in the books as they contemplate what use they will be after winning the crusade. When there are no wars left to fight, these radically inhuman immortal giants who can kill loads of normal men and women with impunity, who thinks and act in ways that are, at least superficially, very alien from mortals, will just be pariahs and sources of tension . That was my impression of what some of them feared. And even the noble Sons of Horus like Loken casually killed many innocent normal folks in their zeal to move Horus along, just like Ahriman watched on as they killed the future-predicting Remembrancer. They felt bad about it but in the end, what do mortal lives really mean to Space Marines is a question that comes up a lot in these books so far.
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Jan 28, 2021 05:50
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NikkolasKing posted:I never said they weren't noble, I said they were bred for war and that's all they know which is a point that does come up multiple times in the books as they contemplate what use they will be after winning the crusade. None of what you have said has been outright false, the issue is you are making sweeping generalizations and applying it to everyone. The Ultramarines are not at all what you've described here. Neither are the Salamanders or even the Blood Angels. It's only partly true for some legions, and it's, of course, true for legions like the Night Lords. The lore is much more deeper and nuanced than the memes and reddit give it credit for. Immanentized posted:Holy poo poo yes I also got all but about 10 issues of Warhammer Monthly, the old monthly Warhammer comic series. Most of the graphic novels originally released as these over several issues. 
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Jan 28, 2021 06:17
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Deptfordx posted:On the other hand, your series lead is "Guy in a box" is going to be a hard sell at the commisioning stage. ... One be an inquisitor in training. Two get melted in an attack on a military parade. Three get put in a box. And that's the way you do it. It's a guy in a box! a guy in a box babe.
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Jan 28, 2021 07:39
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Started First Heretic. Been excited and eager for this one. I only just started it I know but, uh, the Emperor murdering a bunch of innocent people for Lorgar's actions does not exactly change the view I have of him as a osicopathic tyrant. Those people's only "crime" was that they were brought into compliance by the Word Bearers. To tell them to lave their home, he sent in a Legion apparently infamous for having the diplomatic skills of bricks. All "leave your home or we'll shoot you" and zero explanations or clarifications. Of course, I'm sure that was intentional as these people deserve no explanations or clarifications. This was all just a punishment for and message to Lorgar and for that, a prosperous, peaceful and loyal city and a load of innocent civilians had to die.
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Jan 28, 2021 11:11
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/22/broken-realms-fiction-the-squint/ Quite liked this short story about a goblin shaman or something. Almost enough to get me into AoS stuff. Almost...
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Jan 28, 2021 11:37
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