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Tuon's gradual realizations about Mat culminating in "A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue." is one of my favorite passages in the whole series.
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Feb 1, 2021 17:51
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jng2058 posted:Tuon's gradual realizations about Mat culminating in "A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue." is one of my favorite passages in the whole series. I feel like I've been waiting 9 books for payoff on Mat, so I'm glad it's finally happening.
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Feb 1, 2021 18:04
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Just finished reading the recap for LoC that was posted a bit earlier and....How did Taim know that Rand was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai and how did he know exactly where to gate to for the rescue? I must have been a darkfriend/black ajah/forsaken informant right?
GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 18:33
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my general assumption is that everyone knows everything that's going on at all times while also simultaneously knowing literally loving nothing if this sounds like things take forever to resolve then, well, you'd be right
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Feb 1, 2021 19:23
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Just finished reading the recap for LoC that was posted a bit earlier and....How did Taim know that Rand was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai and how did he know exactly where to gate to for the rescue? I must have been a darkfriend/black ajah/forsaken informant right? As far as I know, it is never revealed. We only see one message sent out by Galina's crew, and Perrin takes great pains to avoid letting te situation get out to avoid a panic. My best theory is that Taim had already sworn to the Dark One, and this was a case of direct intervention by Sahi'tan himself
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Feb 1, 2021 22:26
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The ending of that book was so amazing to read for the first time back in the day. It never even crossed my mind about Taim knowing where to gate to and I've read those first 7 books so many times.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:10
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I mean it kind of does get lost in the OH HOLY gently caress but yeah it's a valid question
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Feb 2, 2021 00:22
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I mean it kind of does get lost in the OH HOLY gently caress but yeah it's a valid question They had sort of figured out how to do short distance scouting with Travelling already, so I just always assumed that's how they found them. They knew where they were headed, so just send some dudes that direction until they see the tracks from the army and narrow down Rand's precise location from there. It wouldn't be that hard to find a small army travelling that direction with Aes Sedai, and no chance they'd be detected since it's men doing the travelling. The only real risk would be accidentally Travelling to the middle of the army before they find them, and once they're found it's not like the Aes Sedai were moving super fast.
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Feb 2, 2021 00:55
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I think, given the timing, the assumption has to be that Taim was watching the caravan to see if it all went to poo poo and decided to intervene when it did. Alternatively, a ta'veren did it.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:06
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The issue is how Taim knew to look. Both Galina's Aes Sedai and Perrin tried (for very different reasons) to keep the situation quiet. So, who told Taim that somebody was going to need rescuing in the first place?
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Feb 2, 2021 01:44
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A wizard did it
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Feb 2, 2021 01:48
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Gnoman posted:The issue is how Taim knew to look. Both Galina's Aes Sedai and Perrin tried (for very different reasons) to keep the situation quiet. So, who told Taim that somebody was going to need rescuing in the first place? He must have found out it was happening from the other side (Galina etc.)
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Feb 2, 2021 01:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:He must have found out it was happening from the other side (Galina etc.) Oh, Alviarin would have seen the message Elaida got and passed it up the chain. How he knew where they'd be though...
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Feb 2, 2021 03:27
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Perrin tried to keep Rand's kidnapping a secret, but he was not that successful. Everybody in Cairhien knew what was up when the Dragon Reborn vanished, the Aes Sedai left, and then Rand's childhood buddy, his Ogier friend, his biggest supporter among the Cairhienin nobility, plus an Aiel clan chief with a host of Aiel suddenly left the city as well. It's why Colavere was able to get herself crowned queen after all, and as Dobraine noticed, she didn't waste much time after Perrin and co. went away. And the Aes Sedai in fact encouraged Colavere to take the crown, and definitely whispered to other Caerhienin nobles about Rand "not being a problem anymore", or something like that, which helped Colavere getting the critical mass of support (or at least not opposition) to make her queen. Even the politically not that savvy Aiel figured out what was up, with the Bleakness returning in force to claim a lot of them, and the clan chiefs either speaking of returning to the Three-Fold Land, or staging an assault on the White Tower to free Rand. And we know Taim had his eyes and ears in Caemlyn, keeping tabs on what's happening there, so it's quite reasonable to assume he had some in Caerhien as well, given that Rand spent basically all his time in one of those two cities. As others have said, he had his channeler detection squads already use traveling to scout, it wouldn't be that hard to follow Perrin's trail and find out where Rand was. And the Pattern likely encouraged those efforts, since it went to the extreme lengths to prod Perrin into leaving the Two Rivers to be by Rand's side already. And of course there's the possibility that Taim got this info through his darfriend connections as well. The more interesting question is why he would decide to free Rand in the first place. Fear of losing his protection, of Rand's amnesty for male channelers becoming invalid? A desire to take some revenge on the Aes Sedai who captured him? Perhaps he wanted to take this opportunity to take the White Tower down a peg, he probably saw it as long term the only real rival to "his" Black Tower, and giving them a bloody nose this early could only help tilt the scales in the Black Tower's favor. I kinda don't think the Shadow itself wanted Rand's kidnapping stopped, it was after all organized by one of the Forsaken. That does not necessarily mean that the Dark One wouldn't undermine one of his Chosen in their plots, as he gave Semirhage the order to send some Trollocs to Tear to fight those sent by Sammael to kill Rand, as the Shadow very much does not want Rand dead at this point. But Rand being under the control of the Black Ajah was imho far less dangerous, since even the Reds acknowledged that the Dragon Reborn mustn't die before the Last Battle. They probably could have arranged for Rand to be forcibly turned to the Shadow, through the 13+13 trick. But maybe this wouldn't have helped the Dark One? The series ending is a bit ambiguous about that all. Or perhaps the Shadow figured that the important damage had already been done, seeing what it did to Rand's psyche. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 08:09
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Let the Lord of Chaos rule. Basically the idea is to let the village idiot (Rand) gently caress things up on his own. The Forsaken were playing a long game, on orders from the Dark One, that lasted for at least 3 books in which they would set things in motion to prod and needle Rand, and only Sammael wasn't playing along (with a little prodding from Graendal). The Black Ajah, from Alviarin on down, were not aware that they were being sacrificed in this play. The real question is when did Demandred recruit Mazrim Taim.
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Feb 2, 2021 16:17
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I always figured it was that Taim had some way of spying on or tracking Rand that he didn't disclose and was on the fence up to that point - debating if it was really worth it to be loyal to him - and feeling insufficiently thanked after Dumai's Wells is what tips the scales towards the Shadow. Alternatively it's another one of those things that was meant for the Taimandred storyline that got booted and the explanation ends up being "a ta'veren made it happen".
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Feb 2, 2021 16:35
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On the surface Dumais Wells appeared to be a victory for the good guys, but it was actually the greatest triumph of the Shadow in probably the entire series. The Dark One's end game was to break Rand and get him to give up and destroy existence. The Dragon had failed many times in many previous lives, but he had never given up. This event did extreme damage to Rand's mental health, and it also turned Rand against the Aes Sedai, who should have been his greatest allies. The Box and Dumais Wells began Rand's journey down the DarthRand path, the domination band and Min choke out were just the straw that broke the camel's back at the end.
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Feb 2, 2021 16:44
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It's quite masterfully done. When I read the books as a teenager, I was reading a serialized novel of an all-powerful dude wrecking bad guys and bringing the lands into line. When I reread them in my 30s, I was reading a slow, long tale of a man losing touch with everything that made him human as his PTSD drove him slowly insane,followed by a huge kick into high gear at the end of Winter's Heart and his eventual redemption. It becomes really clear on a re-read, that everything the Shadow did was aimed purely at destroying Rand's soul. Everyone and everything was expendable to that goal. When you read the books in that light, even the slower ones make a lot more sense.
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Feb 2, 2021 16:45
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Mat Cauthon posted:I always figured it was that Taim had some way of spying on or tracking Rand that he didn't disclose and was on the fence up to that point - debating if it was really worth it to be loyal to him - and feeling insufficiently thanked after Dumai's Wells is what tips the scales towards the Shadow. I didn't think Taim was Demandred but I leaned towards an incoherent "he was always a darkfriend" explanation (a lot of details did not line up in this framework), neuxue gave me a convincing explanation for how he might've nominally been on the side of light and then fallen. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 16:51
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I thought Taim was a darkfriend right from the first time he's introduced. He's been channeling for years(3-5?) without the taint affecting him, that's only possible with protection granted by the DO, like we saw with Asmodean. He's also clearly received some training in channeling from someone before he ever meets Rand. It's not possible that he kept himself sane and was so knowledgeable about the Power as a self taught wilder.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:33
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Which really means he had to be picked up by Ishamael, as no one else fits the timeline. Was there a Saldaean at the dark friend social? It would make sense for him to then be picked up later by Demandred, since he's pretty power-hungry and would try to exploit the connection, as all good Darkfriends do.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:40
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i dunno if it can entirely be said the taint doesn't affect taim, he seems relatively put-together but logain also did as well. i think in a lot of cases the taint would normally take a few years to creep up on a channeler and be 'noticeable' as it is, but rand is sort of a special case because he's, well, you know. now, yeah, taim is absolutely picked up by the forsaken at some point, but him not being half-mad by that point probably isn't too far-fetched. we never really get a view from his end anyways so it's kind of a moot point, i guess.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:46
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When the show comes out, we really should change the title of this thread to signify this is the spoiler thread. Maybe start a new thread for new readers/viewers. This page spoiled like 90% of the entire series, including a lot of the good stuff, without tags. Not that that's a bad thing. It'd be like spoiling lord of the rings. But there is a show to consider. BigHead fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 17:46
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Yeah, we will deal with that when it happens. I assume there will be a tv/iv thread and someone might make a read along thread. Or maybe we will revisit spoilers generally. Good call to start thinking about it but we've got some time.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:59
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I imagine the TVIV thread will be the spoiler free thread, assuming the show is popular enough to warrant one.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:59
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You're right about that. Perhaps we should create a new, spoiler free thread, while this serves as the books/rv series spoiler thread.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:00
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The show will have a thread in TVIV, I imagine. Two, if it's at all popular. [e: lol well I took too long to post that clearly] Could certainly put a warning in the header, but I don't think a reasonable person is going to wander into the TBB thread and expect it not to be full of spoilers. I think with Taim a lot of it is Jordan changing his mind on him being Demandred after the character was outlined. The "so-called Aiel" line in particular doesn't make much sense in the mouth of anyone but one of the Forsaken.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:06
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:I think with Taim a lot of it is Jordan changing his mind on him being Demandred after the character was outlined. The "so-called Aiel" line in particular doesn't make much sense in the mouth of anyone but one of the Forsaken.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:10
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I'm not at all concerned about Taim's apparent relative sanity and neither should you. Why? Logain. That being said, Neuxue very astutely pointed out the relevant angles. In any given year the Reds hunt down a good number of channelling men. Of those, some have gone insane, some have not yet. We don't know exactly how many--but we do know how many men declare themselves the Dragon Reborn and get anywhere with it, because those are important names. Everyone knows those names. Amalasan, Darksbane, Davian, Rogad, Stonebow. You don't get to be on this list unless you learn to channel, you don't get to be on this list unless you're capable and competent to rally men to your banner and lead them, you don't get to be on this list unless you've wrecked major havoc and made major conquests. And for all of that to happen you have to keep yourself together long enough to not fall apart. Taim and Logain got themselves on this list. How is Taim still sane? That question doesn't matter. He is one of those who managed it. And to name yourself the Dragon Reborn? What choice do you have? Either acknowledge that despite all you've achieved that you are doomed, or look for any reason to grasp for hope.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:19
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Torrannor posted:Perrin tried to keep Rand's kidnapping a secret, but he was not that successful. Everybody in Cairhien knew what was up when the Dragon Reborn vanished, the Aes Sedai left, and then Rand's childhood buddy, his Ogier friend, his biggest supporter among the Cairhienin nobility, plus an Aiel clan chief with a host of Aiel suddenly left the city as well. It's why Colavere was able to get herself crowned queen after all, and as Dobraine noticed, she didn't waste much time after Perrin and co. went away. And the Aes Sedai in fact encouraged Colavere to take the crown, and definitely whispered to other Caerhienin nobles about Rand "not being a problem anymore", or something like that, which helped Colavere getting the critical mass of support (or at least not opposition) to make her queen. Even the politically not that savvy Aiel figured out what was up, with the Bleakness returning in force to claim a lot of them, and the clan chiefs either speaking of returning to the Three-Fold Land, or staging an assault on the White Tower to free Rand. And we know Taim had his eyes and ears in Caemlyn, keeping tabs on what's happening there, so it's quite reasonable to assume he had some in Caerhien as well, given that Rand spent basically all his time in one of those two cities. As others have said, he had his channeler detection squads already use traveling to scout, it wouldn't be that hard to follow Perrin's trail and find out where Rand was. And the Pattern likely encouraged those efforts, since it went to the extreme lengths to prod Perrin into leaving the Two Rivers to be by Rand's side already. this made me read up this recap because I plum forgot about Colavere, and gently caress its making me want to re-read the series, its such a good scene: https://www.tor.com/2009/12/18/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-a-crown-of-swords-part-4/ there really isn't anything out there on that level of cathartic fantasy politicking
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Feb 2, 2021 18:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, we will deal with that when it happens. I assume there will be a tv/iv thread and someone might make a read along thread. Or maybe we will revisit spoilers generally. Good call to start thinking about it but we've got some time. Torrannor posted:You're right about that. Perhaps we should create a new, spoiler free thread, while this serves as the books/rv series spoiler thread. We've got both a regular Babylon 5 thread and one that's spoiler-free for the handful of new watchers doing blind watch runs. I seem to recall we had at least one blind reader of WoT pop up in this thread a while back. With interest in the show drawing in new readers, maybe the next time a new reader pops in, we should create a spoiler free thread that they can post their reactions to the books and we can post our reactions to that with a strict rule about not spoiling it for them.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, we will deal with that when it happens. I assume there will be a tv/iv thread and someone might make a read along thread. Or maybe we will revisit spoilers generally. Good call to start thinking about it but we've got some time. I would really enjoy a spoiler free read along thread. I've really gotten into read along podcasts, and my most favorite ones are where one person has read the whole series and their cohost(s) are going in completely blind. Nexue is scratching that itch for me too, but a goon thread would be fantastic.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:24
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having a separate thread would absolutely be the way to go. with how dense a lot of the material is it'd quickly become incomprehensible to try and have conversations about it while blacking out half the words.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:28
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:I'm not at all concerned about Taim's apparent relative sanity and neither should you.
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Feb 2, 2021 19:29
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Torrannor posted:And of course there's the possibility that Taim got this info through his darfriend connections as well. The more interesting question is why he would decide to free Rand in the first place. Fear of losing his protection, of Rand's amnesty for male channelers becoming invalid? A desire to take some revenge on the Aes Sedai who captured him? Perhaps he wanted to take this opportunity to take the White Tower down a peg, he probably saw it as long term the only real rival to "his" Black Tower, and giving them a bloody nose this early could only help tilt the scales in the Black Tower's favor. I kinda don't think the Shadow itself wanted Rand's kidnapping stopped, it was after all organized by one of the Forsaken. One key thing to remember with the Forsaken is that they are not allies and friends and they almost all have issues about Lews Therin. Any of the Forsaken could have ordered Taim to bust it up, just because they didn't want anybody else to get the credit for taking Rand.
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Feb 2, 2021 20:17
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Khizan posted:One key thing to remember with the Forsaken is that they are not allies and friends and they almost all have issues about Lews Therin. Any of the Forsaken could have ordered Taim to bust it up, just because they didn't want anybody else to get the credit for taking Rand. I think the difference is, the Forsaken that are running this part of the show are characterized as slightly more disciplined than the wild cards of Sammael, Lanfear, and Asmodean. So if Demandred is taking direct orders from the Dark One, and relaying direct orders from the Dark One to the remaining Forsaken (as of that point), and then Demandred proudly asks the Dark One "have I not done well" (paraphrase?) ... Then things pretty much went exactly as they were supposed to.
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Feb 2, 2021 22:14
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Yeah, the kidnapping was organized by Mesaana, while presumably Demandred was in charge of Taim at that point. Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred were much more of a team than any other Forsaken, so this particular crossing of wires is curious.
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Feb 2, 2021 23:04
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Given that TDO views everyone and everything as secondary to breaking Rand, I wouldn't be surprised if he took a direct hand. He might have had Demandred contact Taim directly for the 'rescue'
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Feb 2, 2021 23:40
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Which really means he had to be picked up by Ishamael, as no one else fits the timeline. Was there a Saldaean at the dark friend social? In that case I seems a good theory is that Demandred (using Taim) was working to foil Mesaanas plan (manipulating the tower aes Sedai and the black ajah). Demandred certainly knew where Rand was as he was communicating with the Shaido encouraging them to also attack the Aes Sedai. Demandred and the Dark one probably didn’t want Rand in Tower hands as that reduces the chance of Chaos, and also increases the possibility of Rand being gentled.
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Feb 2, 2021 23:44
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Let the lord of chaos rule
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Feb 2, 2021 23:50
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