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buffalo all day posted:Also posting in the RJ thread about authors being super fixated on specific, excessive and unnecessary things ftw. *sniffs* *smooths dress* *crosses arms under breasts* *gets spanked*
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Feb 24, 2021 00:13
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Whatever woolhead...
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Feb 24, 2021 00:18
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Look at you with your braid privilege. Maybe the women's circle hasn't given their go ahead for all posters just yet, didn't you ever think of that? *regional expletive* *compares you to regional slang for myrddraal* *smashes regional hat on head and stalks out on well-turned calves*
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Feb 24, 2021 00:27
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Look at you with your braid privilege. Maybe the women's circle hasn't given their go ahead for all posters just yet, didn't you ever think of that? Lurk more
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Feb 24, 2021 00:30
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silvergoose posted:Lurk more Lurks, mydrraals, and fades are just fairy tales.
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Feb 24, 2021 01:02
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Lurks, mydrraals, and fades are just fairy tales. You'll get the dragon's fang on your door with talk like that, and end up in trolloc cookpot besides
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Feb 24, 2021 02:02
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I'm gonna wreck your beautiful, perfect, handsome face with my quarterstaff
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Feb 24, 2021 02:04
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I'm gonna wreck your beautiful, perfect, handsome face with my quarterstaff Still one of my favorite Mat chapters.
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Feb 24, 2021 03:04
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It would have been nothing without the Warder yelling HEY EVERYONE COME WATCH THESE IDIOTS GET WRECKED
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Feb 24, 2021 03:24
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It really is the best. I was sad when that Warder exited.
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Feb 24, 2021 04:11
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:It would have been nothing without the Warder yelling HEY EVERYONE COME WATCH THESE IDIOTS GET WRECKED Ten crowns on the farmer with the stick
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Feb 24, 2021 17:03
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:It would have been nothing without the Warder yelling HEY EVERYONE COME WATCH THESE IDIOTS GET WRECKED He didn't just yell it, he covered Mat's side of the bet besides. A sickly kid who can barely stand with a stick versus two of the better swordsmen around and he's like "Yup, kid with a stick from the rear end end of nowhere. That's my guy."
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Feb 24, 2021 18:58
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He was probably the only one who had any goddamn clue about the power of narrative. You may as well bet against the little smiling bald monk who's getting pushed around by street gangsters in a martial arts movie.
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Feb 24, 2021 19:59
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I wonder how many people have the "seeing ta'veren" Talent and just don't know about it. Must be extremely disconcerting when you see someone walk past with a halo.
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Feb 24, 2021 23:47
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It'd be like living in an RPG except you're an NPC who can identify PCs looking for quests by the icon above their heads instead of vice versa.
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Feb 25, 2021 00:05
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mossyfisk posted:I wonder how many people have the "seeing ta'veren" Talent and just don't know about it. Must be extremely disconcerting when you see someone walk past with a halo. Me too. It must be rare, we only know of 3 of them right? Suian, Logain, and one of the Salidar novices. Interestingly Tuon thinks ta'veren are a superstition which implies the Seanchan in general don't know of them. Which is weird considering they know about Min's talent and the way she sees ta'veren and with how many demane they have you'd think at least some of them would see ta'veren. Though it could also just be that ta'veren are super rare. I don't know how common ta'veren are. My vague memory of Moiraine's description of them made it sound like minor ta'veren are fairly common but who knows. I don't think we learn of any other than Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Narratively I've always felt Egwene should have been one too, if perhaps not at the start but by Falme or shortly thereafter. But of course we know she wasn't because of those who can see ta'veren.
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Feb 25, 2021 00:10
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Happened all the time in the middle ages apparently Especially in the muslim world, "Holy poo poo that guy's on fire!!" "What? What guy? Wtf you talking about"
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Feb 25, 2021 00:17
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Spek posted:Narratively I've always felt Egwene should have been one too, if perhaps not at the start but by Falme or shortly thereafter. But of course we know she wasn't because of those who can see ta'veren. Initially I had hoped that for the show they’d cut Perrin’s ta’veren status and give it to Egwene. Perrin’s wolfbrother abilities are cool enough on their own and Mat’s luckbending fits well with his ta’veren status. But then they announced casting and it’d suck to make one of the three boys a PoC and then take away his special role. On top of that, I sort of like that Egwene success isn’t driven by luck, it’s driven by her skill, intelligence, and near sociopathic need for power.
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Feb 25, 2021 01:38
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Prairie Bus posted:Initially I had hoped that for the show they’d cut Perrin’s ta’veren status and give it to Egwene. Perrin’s wolfbrother abilities are cool enough on their own and Mat’s luckbending fits well with his ta’veren status. But then they announced casting and it’d suck to make one of the three boys a PoC and then take away his special role. I liked how the Nexue Tumblr liveblog phrased it: This is a woman who saw someone else's call to adventure and went GIMME. edit: Something RJ said once comes to mind. "Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism." (And in the same remarks, "And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.") Outside of the fiction, the joke is always that "ta'veren" simply means "main character", but within the conceptual framework of The Wheel of Time they serve a specific role. Egwene, evidently, does not serve that role. It's like ... it's not luck, per se. It's the boys doing What Is Supposed To Happen, contrary to What Has Actually Been Going On. Nobody was going to resurrect Manetheren. Nobody was going to think of resurrecting Manetheren. What Egwene does, while incredible, is within the realm of probability. Alternately, I'm looking at it wrong, and it's that what Egwene did didn't really need to happen? (As in, it's not a corrective because the situation didn't need to be corrected.) I'm not sure. Taking ta'veren seriously is weird and hard. edit 2: Source for the quotes is here, entry 11. Vavrek fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 01:44
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Prairie Bus posted:Initially I had hoped that for the show they’d cut Perrin’s ta’veren status and give it to Egwene. Perrin’s wolfbrother abilities are cool enough on their own and Mat’s luckbending fits well with his ta’veren status. But then they announced casting and it’d suck to make one of the three boys a PoC and then take away his special role. I always thought it was cool that the Super Ladies didn't have the Ta'veren advantage/curse? and did all kinds of historic poo poo anyway. Like the boys were going to be used by the pattern no matter what they wanted.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:30
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You know, something I was sad about when going through the series this most recent time and reflecting on RJ's death and the lack of new material: We'll never get to see Bode Cauthon's antics in any detail or extent. You know she'd have them.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:49
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ta'veren are funny in a way because it's basically a status that, on the surface, pretty much means 'this is a character that stuff will happen around' but ultimately it's a lot of things that would happen to the average protagonist in another fantasy series. we just get the occasional note of 'perhaps this happened because they're ta'veren' and the story can support so many characters of the sort because it's loving huge anyways.
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Feb 25, 2021 04:01
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I like the notion of "this universe literally revolves around this person - it isn't just a storytelling thing". Especially because all three Ta'veren spend a lot of time wishing the universe would leave them the hell alone.
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Feb 25, 2021 04:11
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yeah, thankfully the role was kind of flipped on its head a bit by it being the actual fabric of the universe doing weird poo poo because that opened up a lot of avenues for character exploration and how they approached the status. that all said i think perrin's was probably the most superfluous. it almost would have been funnier if all the same stuff had happened to him and he'd just grown increasingly exasperated while thinking that he must actually be ta'veren for all of this to be happening but in reality everyone just likes and trusts him and that's about it.
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Feb 25, 2021 04:22
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I've always thought it was pretty clever to create a universe that is explicitly under narrative control. Existence itself has A Way It's Going To Go and it will create Main Characters to get it there.Spek posted:Though it could also just be that ta'veren are super rare. I don't know how common ta'veren are. My vague memory of Moiraine's description of them made it sound like minor ta'veren are fairly common but who knows. I don't think we learn of any other than Rand, Mat, and Perrin.
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Feb 25, 2021 05:44
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Gnoman posted:I like the notion of "this universe literally revolves around this person - it isn't just a storytelling thing". Especially because all three Ta'veren spend a lot of time wishing the universe would leave them the hell alone. It's their reaction to the status that has me enjoy it instead of getting annoyed. The boys wind up coming into their roles on their own terms, and the ta'varen stuff is more a way to highlight "these are people the reader should pay attention to" and a way to drive the story and establish their character. "The plot just works in this guy's favor" would be terrible if the character was on board with that from the start.
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Feb 25, 2021 08:19
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Bruceski posted:It's their reaction to the status that has me enjoy it instead of getting annoyed. The boys wind up coming into their roles on their own terms, and the ta'varen stuff is more a way to highlight "these are people the reader should pay attention to" and a way to drive the story and establish their character. "The plot just works in this guy's favor" would be terrible if the character was on board with that from the start. There's also the question whether the plot always works in the protagonist's favor. I'm not sure Rand would agree with that sentiment.
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Feb 25, 2021 09:10
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bio347 posted:I've always thought it was pretty clever to create a universe that is explicitly under narrative control. Existence itself has A Way It's Going To Go and it will create Main Characters to get it there. Ishamael did an absolute number on both Hawkwing personally and on his expedition that ended up forming the modern Seanchan. Their copies of the Karatheon Cycle were explicitly hosed with by him in ways to pit them against the Dragon Reborn. Its not incredibly surprising they ended up in a really weird place, especially with the cultural appropriation and melding over the last thousand years with the people native to Seanchan.
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Feb 25, 2021 09:25
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Prairie Bus posted:Initially I had hoped that for the show they’d cut Perrin’s ta’veren status and give it to Egwene. Perrin’s wolfbrother abilities are cool enough on their own and Mat’s luckbending fits well with his ta’veren status. But then they announced casting and it’d suck to make one of the three boys a PoC and then take away his special role. IMO Egwene butts heads with Rand too much for this to work. She's often trying to prevent his ta'veren bullshit, it would be weird for them both to have it. Also, Egwene's success is 100% luck. It's just that kind of middle/upper class luck of circumstances. She doesn't get the Amyrlin Seat because of dedication or her skill or her political machinations. She's given the Seat because they're desperate and she knows an important boy they want to influence(and because their internal politics are so toxic that they'd rather promote an absolute newbie than see one of their fellows raised up). She has absolutely nothing to do with the process. She's not even in Salidar when they decide to do it. Sure, once the power is dropped into her lap she does a good job of holding onto it, but she does absolutely nothing to earn it. It's 100% luck of birth. If she'd been born in Baerlon she'd end the series as an Accepted or maybe a brand new Aes Sedai. bio347 posted:IIRC the only other that's named in the books is Hawkwing Lews Therin, though I guess you could just count him and Rand together.
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Feb 25, 2021 10:01
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Khizan posted:IMO Egwene butts heads with Rand too much for this to work. She's often trying to prevent his ta'veren bullshit, it would be weird for them both to have it. Eh, I think you're underselling the effort that Siuan and Leane put in behind the scenes to first harden the factions opposition to one another to ensure neither Romanda nor Lelaine got the Seat in Exile, then quietly sold the idea of Egwene to them as a "puppet Amyrlin". (Actually, I think that Siuan was really trying to set Moiraine up as the new Amyrlin given her suggestion that the perfect candidate would be "strong in the power and not in the Tower when the coup happened" fits Moiraine as much as it does Egwene, and Moiraine is at least a well respected full Aes Sedai. I think she only switched to Egwene when she heard of Moiraine's death.) So it's really the degree to which Egwene was known to Siuan as someone that Siuan trusted that ultimately put her butt on the Seat, not just luck.
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Feb 25, 2021 10:29
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I think that defining Egwene's success as "luck" is probably pretty close to the actuality. She's in so close with the three ta'veren that she basically gets flung along the rapids of their twisting of fate. The Pattern wanted her places but instead of being ta'veren herself it used the others to slingshot her around. The Aes Sedai stuff she gets involved in is more or less completely divorced from the boys, but then again... Mat was in the Tower for a bit in tDR and briefly in Salidar as well later on. I've always sorta wondered... how much damage did his presence cause that just... nobody noticed? OTOH, she's one of a very small group of people to be more or less immune to Rand's ta'veren shenanigans so maybe there's something special going on there too. Khizan posted:Lews Therin, though I guess you could just count him and Rand together.
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Feb 25, 2021 11:16
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she lucks into the role but earns the power (at least until she gets to the tower again, once she gets there it's just that everyone thinks shes awesome and cool with her superpower of being stubborn)
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Feb 25, 2021 11:19
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Yeah, she has quite a bit of luck attaining her position, but it's pretty much impossible to get there without luck. She's lucky to be born a channeler in the first place, lucky to be very strong in the One Power, considering how much Aes Sedai value that quality (I think among Aes Sedai, only Nynaeve and Cadsuane are stronger in the Power, with Elayne and Elaida comparable in strength?), and she was lucky to be born in the Two Rivers to grow up with Rand. And she was in the right place at the right time that Siuan trusted her to hunt the Black Ajah, and then seemed a good choice for a puppet Amyrlin to all 4 factions (Romanda and co., Lelaine's group, Sheriam's posse and Siuan plus Leane) for various reasons. After that, becoming the "real" Amyrlin was mostly her own skill, with a lot of help from Siuan, of course. There's little luck involved, only political machinations, and very crucially, consistently knowing more than the other Aes Sedai. Either through getting exclusive info from Siuan and Leane, Dreaming, or being much more familiar with Rand and Mat, for example.
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Feb 25, 2021 11:45
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awesmoe posted:she lucks into the role but earns the power (at least until she gets to the tower again, once she gets there it's just that everyone thinks shes awesome and cool with her superpower of being stubborn) Ehhhh, when you have someone who seems hellbent on tearing the Tower apart and having everyone at each other's throats, I can see latching onto someone who genuinely seems to want to rebuild trust and faith. Idk. I liked those chapters 
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Feb 25, 2021 11:46
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awesmoe posted:she lucks into the role but earns the power (at least until she gets to the tower again, once she gets there it's just that everyone thinks shes awesome and cool with her superpower of being stubborn) Her real superpower is being the best at getting spanked. I mean, it's actually a fairly well executed sequence, but still.
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Feb 25, 2021 12:56
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Eh that was just Aiel training.
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Feb 25, 2021 13:06
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Torrannor posted:There's also the question whether the plot always works in the protagonist's favor. I'm not sure Ra nd would agree with that sentiment. Ta'veren seems mostly concerned with getting the weaving to the right place and not at all concerned with what actually happens there or after, so yes, it's not great! Having there be a good result and maintaining that good result afterwards? Up to you and everyone else, buddy! VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 14:37
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Johnny Joestar posted:ta'veren are funny in a way because it's basically a status that, on the surface, pretty much means 'this is a character that stuff will happen around' but ultimately it's a lot of things that would happen to the average protagonist in another fantasy series. we just get the occasional note of 'perhaps this happened because they're ta'veren' and the story can support so many characters of the sort because it's loving huge anyways. One of the oldest Wheel of Time jokes is "Ta'veren, n.: in the Old Tongue, "Protagonist." Like a lot of other things Jordan does, it's a nice way of "lampshading" what otherwise would be fairly ordinary fantasy conventions. Yes, the protagonist is gonna get lucky. That's how this universe works, moving on.
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Feb 25, 2021 14:45
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I will defeat you with my *ominous sting* PLOT DEVICE!
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Feb 25, 2021 15:00
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Now I’m picturing Ishy going through a copy of TV tropes (came in a stasis box) trying to figure out the one weird trick that will turn or kill Rand. No wonder the forsaken are so scared of moving against him or the other two. “No, that would be Too Many Ninjas.” “We need a good Xanathos Gambit here, overly complex plotting go!” Explains a lot. Doesn’t one of the Forsaken think about this directly in the Sanderson books? I think the context was killing Perrin, hence the whole Children of Light setup?
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Feb 25, 2021 16:42
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