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Nenonen posted:Leopard ½ has the best ventilation around. Just make sure you keep the enemy to the front and right. I Ugh They This is a mech. We've gone and invented mechs. I mean tanks aren't human-shaped, but there's basically zero space between the people and the metal. They're essentially wearing the tank. It's a mech now. Cessna posted:M-1A1 driver's position: And on that cheerful note I've had a recurring nightmare of having to drive my car with roughly that amount of windscreen to work with. e: sorry for the Claustrophobia snipe. Apparently warfare is unpleasant for the participants!?
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Mar 5, 2021 09:19
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With regards to bicycles the Finnish tank regiment/division in Continuation War (41-44) used bicycle infantry with tanks. They were pretty much dragoons, keep up with the tanks with your bikes and ditch the bikes once the shooting starts. Once whatever was there is clear get your bike from the ditch and keep going.
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Mar 5, 2021 10:04
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The Lone Badger posted:For that matter, do new tanks try to have thermal camouflage where they're only hot if seen from behind? Or at least try to keep the turret cold to be able to hide hull-down? Dunno about stuff in general, but part of the Finnish BMP-2 upgrade program was thermal camouflage: 
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Mar 5, 2021 10:05
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The Lone Badger posted:Does the commander at least have a screen which displays the locations of all friendlies and reported locations of all known enemies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_force_tracking
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Mar 5, 2021 10:23
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The Lone Badger posted:Otoh you're going to have to shout at me very loudly to get me to do something that will attract a tank's attention towards me while not actually disabling it in any way. If it isn't a Western tank you actually have: some options e: the video won't autoplay and the site itself isn't NSFW, but it's a tank being blown up. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 10:31
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Ataxerxes posted:They were pretty much dragoons, keep up with the tanks with your bikes and ditch the bikes once the shooting starts. Once whatever was there is clear get your bike from the ditch and keep going. One man in each squad would stay back with the bikes, tending for and feeding them, as the dismounts went to fight. Well, at least they should have. One time in Tali-Ihantala a unit returning to their bikes found them crushed by a tank. Anti-bicycle road rage was already a thing in 1944.
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Mar 5, 2021 10:36
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Tree Bucket posted:This is a mech. We've gone and invented mechs. I mean tanks aren't human-shaped, but there's basically zero space between the people and the metal. They're essentially wearing the tank. It's a mech now. tanks have had very little space between humans and metal since roughly the time they were invented https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_FT#/media/File:RenaultFT-17TankInternalLayoutDiagram.jpg
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Mar 5, 2021 14:07
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Platystemon posted:The Panther in particular was extra poo poo because the gunner didn’t have a wide‐view scope, only the highly‐magnified gun sight, so target acquisition took longer. That's late-war Panthers, no?
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Mar 5, 2021 14:22
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Jobbo_Fett posted:That's late-war Panthers, no? AFAIK it was all of them.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:31
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Ataxerxes posted:With regards to bicycles the Finnish tank regiment/division in Continuation War (41-44) used bicycle infantry with tanks. They were pretty much dragoons, keep up with the tanks with your bikes and ditch the bikes once the shooting starts. Once whatever was there is clear get your bike from the ditch and keep going. I like that the finnish tank division had like, 3 each of StuGs and PzIVs and the rest was a parade roll call of pre-war soviet clunkers.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:44
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Active protection systems have sensors to sense stuff like incoming RPG rounds, Trophy at least uses radar.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:48
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When? During the continuation war it had T-34s and KV-1s.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:49
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Lawman 0 posted:Does anyone have a link to those Iran-Iraq war effort posts? They were last thread right? He has his own webpage where he stores all the effort posts he makes: https://www.gearsofhistory.com/
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Mar 5, 2021 15:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:That's late-war Panthers, no? All of them. The Panther did lose observation devices as the war went on. For instance the Ausf.D had two periscopes and a direct vision block for the driver, the Ausf.G had just one periscope.
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Mar 5, 2021 15:29
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Twice the visual range to track where the parts fell off at!
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Mar 5, 2021 15:30
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Roll a D10 for each Panzer V in your force...
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Mar 5, 2021 15:50
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Tias posted:When? During the continuation war it had T-34s and KV-1s. Right, in 1943 it got a StuG battalion and then after armistice the Pz IVJ's came just in time to fight Germans. Before that the main equipment was captured or bought T-34's and couple of KV's, and before that 26's and 28's.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:20
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Arban posted:I'm gonna gueass that at least the first of these would be effective against a modern tank, since a squad of grunts using your head for target practice will probably make most people do a quick turtle imitation. Yes. At that point, why not? Maybe you'll even take out a sight or a vision block. And, more importantly, one thing to understand is that war is not like a wargame where you can look down at the map and see everything that is happening, especially in tight terrain. I've mentioned this before, but if I was TC and started taking heavy small arms fire, I would probably try to back out and leave. I do not have a 100% understanding of what is going on, and for all I know those riflemen are trying to distract me while some guy with an RPG-29 sneaks up on my flank. I don't want that to happen, so I'll shoot back, then leave if I can. Grumio posted:Is there a general acknowledgement that loaders have the shittiest job in the tank? Are they the most junior members, before they train to be a gunner/TC? No, every job has good and bad. Loader isn't a BAD job, it just requires the least training; you could teach someone how to load well in an afternoon. In training exercises everyone switches/swaps jobs all the time so that everyone knows every job. (Platoon commanders/platoon sergeants usually don't, but even they might drive or shoot once in a while if the mood hits them.) The Lone Badger posted:For that matter, do new tanks try to have thermal camouflage where they're only hot if seen from behind? Or at least try to keep the turret cold to be able to hide hull-down? Absolutely, because even if your exhaust is behind you it creates a plume. White Coke posted:What viewing equipment did tanks use during WW2 and how did they differ by country/over time? The discussion about how the M48 was much better than the Panther because of all the advances in optical technology piqued my interest. It was all optics for the most part, the question is how good they were. A well made lens is a lot better than a blurry one. There have been advances, of course. The Germans started using infared (a subset of optics) in the closing days of WWII and it became standard soon after, for example. The Lone Badger posted:Does the commander at least have a screen which displays the locations of all friendlies and reported locations of all known enemies? Not in my day. Tree Bucket posted:And on that cheerful note I've had a recurring nightmare of having to drive my car with roughly that amount of windscreen to work with. It's pretty comparable to the position an open-wheel race driver (Formula 1, Indycar) sits in. The whole idea for both is to to reduce your front profile but still let you see and work the controls: 
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Mar 5, 2021 16:24
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Crack That Tank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EngDMNRoqvE Share a beer with your friendly, trash-talking tank driving pal as he tells you how to not get killed by his German counterpart
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Mar 5, 2021 16:28
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The Lone Badger posted:Does the commander at least have a screen which displays the locations of all friendlies and reported locations of all known enemies? The US Army does, it is the amusingly named Force XXI Battle Command Brigade and Below (FBCB2), which is a subcomponent of Army Battle Command System (ABCS). It integrates both satellite (Blue Force Tracker) and terrestrial radio (EPLRS) into what is supposed to be a single operational picture. The reason I typed that out isn't because anyone might find it interesting (no one finds it interesting) but because these systems are a central part of an emerging tactical problem: our vehicles have all become very loud electronic emitters. In order to fully participate in ABCS, a tank or brad has to put out signals over high-bandwidth terrestrial UHF, satellite, plus good old VHF for old-timey voice comms. As APS systems come on line, they'll have their own fairly substantial RF signature through their radars, all in addition to all the noise and dust and heat that a track always puts out. Also, maybe soldiers haven't turned their cell phones off. Point being, the army is starting to realize this is a huge problem on a battlefield where low observability is very important and so a lot of very tough decisions are coming down the pipe as to the value of SA versus the value of low observability.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:48
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Greg12 posted:Crack That Tank That was the video i was referring to earlier. It's kinda fun to figure out how much of it is still valid against present day stuff.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:52
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Wouldn’t the equipment necessary to make use out of pinpointing those emitters be observable as well? I’d expect there to be some sort of triangulation requirement to get any useable info out of the emissions and would require communication. Unless you’re going for a sneak attack or something like that which in armor is kind of lol.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:52
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bewbies posted:Point being, the army is starting to realize this is a huge problem on a battlefield where low observability is very important and so a lot of very tough decisions are coming down the pipe as to the value of SA versus the value of low observability. That sort of system is undoubtedly very useful for situational awareness, but my first instinct is extreme distrust. If my vehicle is doing something to make it visible to my command, is there a chance the other side could use it to find where I am? What if one of those devices is taken by the enemy?
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Mar 5, 2021 16:55
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Greg12 posted:Crack That Tank Update the stock footage and switch "rifle grenade" to whatever infantry uses now and it seems good to me. Stay hidden Call in artillery and airstrikes, ideally your own tanks as well Don't panic and run making you a target, sit tight When they get close enough, open fire to force them to button up Shoot sight blocks and vision devices to blind the tank When in range, hit tank with man-portable AT weapons If you're in a foxhole the tank will just roll right over you Tracks are a major weak point Armor is weakest on sides, bottom, and top Above all do not run, you'll be cut down like grass Swap out the weapons for what that unit will be packing and I don't see a ton of updates. Maybe more of a caveat that modern armor is very likely to stop anything short of a javelin?
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Mar 5, 2021 17:38
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I generally agree with that list, but:quote:If you're in a foxhole the tank will just roll right over you Maybe, maybe not. If they pivot, you're dead. quote:Tracks are a major weak point They're weaker than armor, but a suspension is still pretty durable - far more so than anything on a car or truck, for comparison. Unless you outright destroy something it won't immobilize the AFV immediately.
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Mar 5, 2021 17:41
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I didn't know that about pivoting over foxholes. How effective is it? I imagine it has to do with the local soil and exactly how the hole is dug. If you're dug into desert caliche (if you managed to dig a hole at all I mean) that's gotta be better than some loose sandy loam or clayey mud. Do tank crews practice it, and if so how well does it seem to work? You've gotta be better off taking chances in a hole than running around though lol And the tracks are only weaker in comparison, of course. An infantry unit facing a tank charge is in deep poo poo, I think the video is mostly getting across that you're not guaranteed dead meat if you're dug in, have some organic AT weapons, and everyone keeps their wits about them.
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Mar 5, 2021 17:57
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Uncle Enzo posted:I didn't know that about pivoting over foxholes. How effective is it? I imagine it has to do with the local soil and exactly how the hole is dug. If you're dug into desert caliche (if you managed to dig a hole at all I mean) that's gotta be better than some loose sandy loam or clayey mud. I'm not a Civil Engineer, but broadly speaking - and yes, it totally depends on the soil - if you drive straight across a narrow trench the walls will probably hold and if it is deep enough the infantry will survive. But the more you turn or pivot the more the tracks will dig into the soil more and cause collapse. Uncle Enzo posted:Do tank crews practice it, and if so how well does it seem to work? You've gotta be better off taking chances in a hole than running around though lol Not specifically, in that you don't go out and dig trenches then practice driving through them. But you DO spend countless hours driving over terrain, which includes washouts, dry streambeds, and any number of similar features. You get to know how tracks and dirt interact through experience. The larger point is correct, though - you're a lot better off in a trench than out of one.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:03
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Was the blue force tracker a sort of prioritizing friendly fire prevention thing born out of not having to worry too much about the enemy for so long? Or why did they not worry about everyone emitting?
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Mar 5, 2021 18:06
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Cessna posted:That sort of system is undoubtedly very useful for situational awareness, but my first instinct is extreme distrust. If my vehicle is doing something to make it visible to my command, is there a chance the other side could use it to find where I am? What if one of those devices is taken by the enemy? Welcome to the wonderful world of fighter aircraft; they've been exchanging their exact location with each other for like 40-50 years at this point. (But yes, bluforce trackers scare me)
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Mar 5, 2021 18:08
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aphid_licker posted:Was the blue force tracker a sort of prioritizing friendly fire prevention thing born out of not having to worry too much about the enemy for so long? Or why did they not worry about everyone emitting? 20+ years of not needing to worry about if your adversary (e.g. al qaeda) would be able to collect on that persistent signal. Like bewbies said, it’s been recognized as not ideal for possible future fights. Most marine units have already just stopped using the bft and I believe the service is going to discontinue fielding them.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:35
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Real antitank trenches would have their sides reinforced with wooden beams, they weren't just a hole in the ground you hide in. Of course, even a hole is better than nothing. The tank commander might not even want to risk stopping and grinding down a single foxhole at the risk of making himself a stationary target.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:36
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good vid on dangers of unshored earth trenches here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLs1_8yohb8 Unshored trenches are prone to self-collapse let alone when a giant piece of machinery is driving along around it. Of course the dangers are greater the deeper the hole is, and that's a 21 foot deep hole. Hence why as EE posts that trenches almost always get shore. Foxholes are shallow enough that self-collapse isn't an issue, but with mechanical influence you sure could be in trouble.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:43
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Cessna posted:It was all optics for the most part, the question is how good they were. A well made lens is a lot better than a blurry one. I read (or heard) somewhere that the Sherman had a sight which both the gunner and commander could use. Was this sort of thing a common feature?
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Mar 5, 2021 18:48
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Tree Bucket posted:I That's what tanks have been since like, the second time anyone built a tank. The reason they're still tank shaped and not mech shaped is because mechs are dumb and bad 
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Mar 5, 2021 18:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Some sort of mechanized...corps
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Mar 5, 2021 18:54
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bewbies posted:The US Army does, it is the amusingly named Force XXI Battle Command Brigade and Below (FBCB2), which is a subcomponent of Army Battle Command System (ABCS). It integrates both satellite (Blue Force Tracker) and terrestrial radio (EPLRS) into what is supposed to be a single operational picture. SA?
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Mar 5, 2021 18:54
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Situational Awareness
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Mar 5, 2021 18:56
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situational awareness
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Mar 5, 2021 18:56
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Saucy Asses
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Mar 5, 2021 18:58
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:36 |
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MikeCrotch posted:Situational Awareness TK-42-1 posted:situational awareness Nenonen posted:Saucy Asses 
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Mar 5, 2021 19:00
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