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They will probably drop the ball on it. The gender stuff shouldn’t be all that hard to change but you have to have people that care about it and Hollywood isn’t exactly great at it. Plus if they change it then the grognaeds who watch it will scream on Reddit about it like anyone should give a poo poo.
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Mar 17, 2021 18:41
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it'll probably be a mess no matter what
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Mar 17, 2021 18:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:My personal fear at this point is that the series is going to crash and founder *hard* over the gender essentialism issue. For the books you can say "flawed but written thirty years ago and relatively progressive for their time"; for the show they won't have that excuse, and I haven't seen anything about how they plan to deal with it. Invalid Validation posted:They will probably drop the ball on it. The gender stuff shouldn't be all that hard to change but you have to have people that care about it and Hollywood isn’t exactly great at it. Plus if they change it then the grognaeds who watch it will scream on Reddit about it like anyone should give a poo poo. Game of Thrones was a hit because of how well it followed the books. All of the important scenes were verbatim. If you change enough of the details, then you don't have those details in the source material to persist. You kinda lose the granular qualities that add up to a series that holds your interest. Also, Johnny Joestar posted:it'll probably be a mess no matter what
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Mar 17, 2021 19:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:My personal fear at this point is that the series is going to crash and founder *hard* over the gender essentialism issue. For the books you can say "flawed but written thirty years ago and relatively progressive for their time"; for the show they won't have that excuse, and I haven't seen anything about how they plan to deal with it. For me, all the heterosexuality really stood out to me after I listened to the audiobooks over the past year or so. My perspective has definitely shifted from reading them when I was younger and now the books really seem like they're from a different era. They can do some little things like add LGBTQ side characters but all of the core cast is locked in cis hetero relationships so there's not much they can do there. And the importance of gender is so firmly entrenched in the lore they can't really change it. They can probably make Min non-binary with some edits but they absolutely can't do anything about saidin/saidar. It seems like the best move is just to just commit to the fact that this story isn't about and doesn't contain trans people. Leave it up to the viewers imagination. I'm cringing hard at the idea of them seriously trying to address how trans issues relate to a fictional magic system.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:49
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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ninjoatse.cx posted:That's actually why I think the series shouldn't be made in the first place. It's a huge theme throughout the books, and I don't think most contemporary audiences will be willing to follow along. Hell, even look at the reactions to how people are interpreting the books decades after they were written. The series is an off-take, on purpose, which I don't think contemporary audiences will go for unless it's repeatedly telegraphed to them that it's a subverted world that is actually a lesson to confirm their own views. What i'm really worried about is that TERFs start latching onto it as a "Feminist Fantasy". I like my Wheel of Time t-shirt, I don't want to have to stop wearing it.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:53
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I don’t think they should make it either. You could take pieces of it and make a decent series or movie out of it. They don’t have the budget to make it good unless it miraculously takes off in popularity. Just make a show about Mat and his crazy luck troubles.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What i'm really worried about is that TERFs start latching onto it as a "Feminist Fantasy". I like my Wheel of Time t-shirt, I don't want to have to stop wearing it. When they start putting "male souls" into "female bodies" later on is uh....gonna maybe be a problem with terfs. I think the series is too corny to be successful but who knows.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What i'm really worried about is that TERFs start latching onto it as a "Feminist Fantasy". I like my Wheel of Time t-shirt, I don't want to have to stop wearing it. Kinda my worry too. I came to it late, so my 2016-era initial take on it was, wow this is some "what if women were in charge, WHOOAAAA craaaaazy" brick-wall comedy routine stuff If they lean into the  , even if they studiously ignore even the hint of trans issues the whole Mars/Venus lmao stuff is only going to resonate with a certain kind of person, outside the longtime fans who "get it" historically (which will be a small portion of the audience; the point of a TV show is to expand the fanbase of the IP). And if they don't, it kind of cuts the heart out of the story and the universe, right?
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Mar 17, 2021 20:22
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pogothemonkey0 posted:For me, all the heterosexuality really stood out to me after I listened to the audiobooks over the past year or so. My perspective has definitely shifted from reading them when I was younger and now the books really seem like they're from a different era. They can do some little things like add LGBTQ side characters but all of the core cast is locked in cis hetero relationships so there's not much they can do there.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:05
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Maybe side step the saidar/saidin issue it by having some legends of non-binary channellers that were super awesome in the Age of Legends because they could switch between saidar / saidin with great concentration, but don't have one on screen so you don't have to get into the specifics? Then have a few trans Aes Sedai / Asha'man that identify strongly with one end of the spectrum and they could just channel the appropriate half?? Everyone post your equally bad ideas below I mean you could have it so souls don't always match bodies, we literally see this in the series with Bathamel/Aran'gar. So transwomen still channel Saidar and transmen Saiden. Of course that comes with a billion other gender essentialism issues and a bunch of the plot would have to get thrown out and re-written from the ground up to accomodate.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:14
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pretty much the most charitable reading i was able to give it was that the pattern always spits someone out in the type of body they want and are used to, but that in itself requires just accepting the fact that it's a topic that's not touched on at all over the course of 14 books and that realistically viewing it that way is something that sort of whitewashes it in general in a cheap way that satisfies no one i don't know if i would have wanted the series to have tried and hamhandedly tackle that sort of scenario but it's kind of a moot point now, anyways
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Mar 17, 2021 22:15
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I've been in the room when people have asked Sanderson about this more then once, he always tries to sidestep the poo poo out of it though.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:20
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Its weird because there's at least some stuff in the books that at least gestures towards this stuff. Like the whole reason for the Bore being drilled in the first place is because they discovered a third type of magic that could be theoretically be used by anyone and would move away from the Saidin/Saidar dichotomy. And then it turns out that that's literally Satan tempting people away from the natural order and 
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Mar 17, 2021 22:22
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To the extent this does or doesn't find an audience, I don't think trans issues are going to matter except to a marginal slice of potential viewers. It's useful not to project your obsessions on the general populace when trying to make accurate predictions. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Drone Jett fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Mar 17, 2021 22:22
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socialsecurity posted:I've been in the room when people have asked Sanderson about this more then once, he always tries to sidestep the poo poo out of it though. Well yeah there are absolutely no good answers.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:25
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All you non-believers be gone, The Lord Dragon will lead us to multiple seasons of top quality tv action.
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Mar 17, 2021 22:29
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:All you non-believers be gone, The Lord Dragon will lead us to multiple seasons of top quality tv action. Ok Masema
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Mar 17, 2021 22:41
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socialsecurity posted:I've been in the room when people have asked Sanderson about this more then once, he always tries to sidestep the poo poo out of it though. What is there to answer? The world is as the world was written. That it doesn't comport with the evolution of 21st century social norms is just a fact. There's nothing to do other than accept it or reject it if that's a huge issue for somebody.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:03
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DarkHorse posted:Ok Masema
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Mar 17, 2021 23:08
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How are u posted:What is there to answer? The world is as the world was written. That it doesn't comport with the evolution of 21st century social norms is just a fact. There's nothing to do other than accept it or reject it if that's a huge issue for somebody. Oh I agree but I just don't think he wants to be the one to put a word one way or another, especially as people have gotten on him in the past for poor LGBT representation.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:11
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I’m sure with him being Mormon he doesn’t want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:15
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Drone Jett posted:To the extent this does or doesn't find an audience, I don't think trans issues are going to matter except to a marginal slice of potential viewers. It's useful not to project your obsessions on the general populace when trying to make accurate predictions. 
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Mar 17, 2021 23:32
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Yeah, gotta agree there's massive minefield here. Gender essentialism is just fundamentally baked into the entire mythos. Also all of the trans-bodied people are evildoers created by the evil deity as punishment.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:39
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Jaxyon posted:When they start putting "male souls" into "female bodies" later on is uh....gonna maybe be a problem with terfs. Zoracle Zed posted:Also all of the trans-bodied people are evildoers created by the evil deity as punishment. Isn't it literally one person? I thought it was just Balthamel.
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Mar 17, 2021 23:42
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Zore posted:Its weird because there's at least some stuff in the books that at least gestures towards this stuff. Like the whole reason for the Bore being drilled in the first place is because they discovered a third type of magic that could be theoretically be used by anyone and would move away from the Saidin/Saidar dichotomy. Reasons the True Power is way better than the One Power: Makes the world scream Darkens the sun Undetectable even by other TP channelers Cool eye sparkles/fire chasms Properly used it can slay the great serpent and stop the crazy circular train the world has been riding forever Supports genderfluid channelers
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Mar 17, 2021 23:48
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Vavrek posted:Isn't it literally one person? I thought it was just Balthamel. shush. We've already ordered the pitchforks, and we're soaking the rags for the torches
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Mar 17, 2021 23:56
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ninjoatse.cx posted:shush. We've already ordered the pitchforks, and we're soaking the rags for the torches Ugh, gonna have to wash off this Dragon's fang then.
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Mar 18, 2021 00:29
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Yea ok, but what the gently caress is a dragon, huh?
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Mar 18, 2021 00:31
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Drone Jett posted:To the extent this does or doesn't find an audience, I don't think trans issues are going to matter except to a marginal slice of potential viewers. It's useful not to project your obsessions on the general populace when trying to make accurate predictions. That's a pretty bad assumption to make about any piece of media in this day and age. The series obviously has some issues that align with various odious real world arguments about gender and/or biological essentialism. Doesn't mean they can't faithfully adapt it but I hope they have their ducks in a row as far as constructively addressing criticism in that vein when it arises. There's basically a whole industry around that sort of thing now, and plenty of examples of what happens if you gently caress it up, no reason not to be prepared. Also gently caress terfs, stay away from my favorite series.
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Mar 18, 2021 00:42
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I mean if we're going to have an eschatological fate and magic system based on a completely arbitrary physical/mental/spiritual feature of a bunch of gibbering apes running around wailing on each other with sharp metal objects, why not just remake the whole thing based on like, numerology or astrology or, some people have an extra finger on each hand Saidar is for the people of the sun, saidin is for those of the moon
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Mar 18, 2021 00:50
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Vavrek posted:Isn't it literally one person? I thought it was just Balthamel. There's a lot of gender BS baked in since, I mean, dude was old southern military dude who wrote Conan poo poo and put these together in the 90's around a concept of gender essentialism. I get that people don't want to discuss things like they like from critical gender or race theories but it's a valid discussion. As someone pointed out when you have 2 gender based powers and the third one that's not binary is eeeeevil, there's some, at least subconscious stuff going on there. There's also criticisms from many other standpoints to Jordan's writing, and you can still like something while admitting it's problems.
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Mar 18, 2021 01:07
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I think the concerns over gender essentialism and lack of LGBT representation while valid, are “very online” concerns and won’t matter at all to the general public. And will have little to no impact one way or the other on the success of this show. GOT, The MCU, Harry Potter, Star Wars, (just about every major IP), etc. basically ignore LGBT. And that doesn’t seem to have impacted their success in a negative way at all.
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Mar 18, 2021 02:12
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th3t00t posted:I think the concerns over gender essentialism and lack of LGBT representation while valid, are “very online” concerns and won’t matter at all to the general public. And will have little to no impact one way or the other on the success of this show. None of those shows core tenant was "women are like this 100%" and "men are like this 100%" which can get messy for some people.
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Mar 18, 2021 02:15
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Yeah but they’re all “traditional” stories about “traditional” humans at heart, where you can just do cis hetero romances exclusively and nobody will bat an eye because it’s “normal”. WoT is explicitly centered on a premise of “men and women are basically Jedi and Sith”
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Mar 18, 2021 02:16
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th3t00t posted:I think the concerns over gender essentialism and lack of LGBT representation while valid, are “very online” concerns and won’t matter at all to the general public. And will have little to no impact one way or the other on the success of this show. Oh neat, I see some of the fantasy fandom hasn't changed at all.
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Mar 18, 2021 02:18
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I think the big issue between WoT and GoT/MCU/Harry Potter/etc is that they don't bring up the "inherentness" (I can't think of a better word) of gender like WoT does. Like in WoT if you're born a woman, then you use this magic, and you're stronger at this type of thing and can't sense this sort of weaves, etc. In Harry Potter everything is literally the same between genders aside from the biases that exist in the real world that people frequently ignore anyway. It's an out of sight out of mind sort of thing. In WoT it's no longer out of sight, it is a major plot point and basically rubbed in your face every other page. Women do this and men do that. The difference of abilities that the genders have being so blatant is going to invite discussion, and then that will transfer over to criticism unless it is handled incredibly well (which personally, I doubt, but we'll see). That's not even bringing up the fact that like other people here have said, all the stuff a trans person would encounter in universe feeds right into transphobic rhetoric (AMAB people still have to use the male half of the power, so see, they're not really women at all! They're just men in dresses trying to invade female space!). That's not even getting into the LGBT issues, what with 'pillow friends' being a thing and all. That goes along the homophobic lines too (well, yea, they had lesbian relationships in college but they were just going through a phase! Once they meet a good man they'll go back to being a good straight woman again!). I'll grant you that the discussion won't happen among every group of watchers, but it is going to be a significant jump up from say, the percent of GoT fans who discuss trans issues. I can't use Harry Potter as an analogy there because loving TERFy JK Rowling and all. But yea, every group of people who even tangentially know a LGBTQ+ person is going to notice the issues, because they are right up in your face. Soysaucebeast fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Mar 18, 2021 |
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Mar 18, 2021 02:30
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A poster mentioned above Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus, which very much fits into every single culture in the WoT universe. It's also worth noting that individualism in much of the cultures of the WoT world is also kind of an afterthought compared to how they function in the society they're in. There are a few mentions about stone age tribes of people, who could easily have very different notions of gender, but none of those exist in Randland (the book of bad art says they all merged into the current societies), and are only mentioned in passing for the people of Seanchan. What little we know about them is framed as being "backwards" and "uncivilized".
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Mar 18, 2021 03:12
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socialsecurity posted:None of those shows core tenant was "women are like this 100%" and "men are like this 100%" which can get messy for some people. Not enough to matter.
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Mar 18, 2021 03:50
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ninjoatse.cx posted:A poster mentioned above Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus, which very much fits into every single culture in the WoT universe. It's also worth noting that individualism in much of the cultures of the WoT world is also kind of an afterthought compared to how they function in the society they're in. If you read what Jordan writes a bit closer, you realize all those cultures are wrong about this, however. That's the joke. It's also the One Power. The. One. Power. Jordan writes several times how Saidin and Saidar are linked. It's not really two separate forces . The logical conclusion from this is that gender binary people probably can use both at the same time, or one or the other, depending on where they fall on the line between male and female.
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Mar 18, 2021 08:37
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Jaxyon posted:There's a lot of gender BS baked in since, I mean, dude was old southern military dude who wrote Conan poo poo and put these together in the 90's around a concept of gender essentialism. I'm not disputing any of that. I was making a narrow point about the number of trans characters in the series. I think there's three reasonable answers: 1) There are multiple trans people, and their existence is solely due to the intervention of their master Shai'tan, who created them as a form of punishment. 2) There is exactly one trans person, Balthamel/Aran'gar, who serves as evidence that while a man's soul in a woman's body is not inherently evil (as this is an aspect of the person's character rather than their composition), they are still fundamentally a man in some spiritual sense. 3) There are no trans characters. The Wheel of Time is a series of complete trans erasure. Balthamel/Aran'gar is so unlike any actual trans person's experience that comparisons can only be superficial and meaningless. 1 is factually incorrect just on the question of number of trans people. I think it's what the posts I was quoting implied, and is the correction I was making. There's an arguable point about whether Aran'gar's body is a punishment, a joke, or just a brilliant tactical choice (for infiltrating an Aes Sedai camp). 2 is a very reasonable criticism of the series' gender essentialism. You could easily make it a stronger criticism depending on your style of analyzing fictional works. (Note that I dodge the issue of 100% of trans people being evil; this is the result of actions taken by the author, and could have been otherwise due to the author's choices. I tend to interpret fictional works as views into alternate worlds, rather than artificial constructions made in this world. This means I often excuse or overlook objectionable parts of a work's story if changing them would require changing significant parts of the setting.) 3 is my position. Though as I think on it right now (like, literally as I wrote the sentence that I deleted to write this one), there's an argument you could make that Aran'gar is a transman experiencing gender dysphoria from having been born into the wrong body and who over time overcomes/desists from this.  That hadn't occurred to me before. I usually assumed that, if interpreted as a trans person, Aran'gar would be read as a transwoman per 2.
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Mar 18, 2021 10:13
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