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SpartanIvy posted:I'm trying to research various pieces of code to figure out how I want to get conductors to my new panel box, and am having a hard time. Is that really what code you're under? Or is it some adoption of the IBC that references NEC? In which case you need to read/apply the amendments to the IBC in the legislation that adopted it (or perhaps that one plus all of the amendments each time they've update the version of the codebooks they use) and use the citations from the IBC that are still relevant from the NEC. The way code is adopted/set up is an absolute nightmare. And its difficult to understand for someone without training. Fortunately, it's unlikely you'll be in any situation where that's necessary. A summary of your local code/NEC should be sufficient to do work correctly and to code.
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Apr 2, 2021 14:38
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Rufio posted:The code book isn't going to make your life any easier I don't think. To be honest if you need more home runs, you should probably hire a professional but I guess that isn't what this thread is for. That is more or less my plan for the attic runs but I also need to run wires from the crawl space which is harder than it should be because of the brick sticking out from the wall right below it. I can easily drill through the brick but the lip right under the panel makes connecting conduits to it tricky. The volume of wires that will need to be run is also pretty high and more than I think is reasonable to shove through conduits even if the inspector would look the other way. My whole house is running off 4 14-gauge wires currently. I need to run new citcuits for the water heater, microwave, kitchen gfci, washing machine, etc. It's all easily accessible wiring, but getting it into the panel is the hard part. I am thinking running THWN through conduits from the panel to junction boxs and then convert to romex once inside the attic/crawl space. I think running several smaller conduits makes more sense than running one big conduit so that I don't run into issues feeding multiple wires through on top of others, or into box fill problems in the jboxes. It would also facilitate doing it in stages instead of all at once. My other option of possibly dubious code approval, is to knock out the 2-1/2" conduit ko in the back of the panel, and run romex straight up/down the wall cavity. I've seen this done a lot in my area but I've also read online it's not to code (anymore?). The electrician did it for some existing wires I had in there using a smaller ko. You can see it in the bottom left of the open panel. Code book won't make any of it easy but it will make it safer and help me evaluate options. I'm still planning out the circuits I want and where so I'm not rushing to do anything.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:02
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Motronic posted:Is that really what code you're under? Or is it some adoption of the IBC that references NEC? In which case you need to read/apply the amendments to the IBC in the legislation that adopted it (or perhaps that one plus all of the amendments each time they've update the version of the codebooks they use) and use the citations from the IBC that are still relevant from the NEC. The way code is adopted/set up is an absolute nightmare. And its difficult to understand for someone without training. Yeah, they adopted it at the beginning of this year. quote:The Electrical Code of the City of Fort Worth is hereby revised and amended to With 20 pages of amendments
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Apr 2, 2021 15:05
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That's certainly more straightforward, especially if there are no amendments, but it's still not something that's going to make a ton of sense to someone without training. In fact it may even be counter-productive for some things. You'll probably be best served with a NEC 2020 Quick Card (https://www.amazon.com/NATIONAL-ELECTRICAL-CODE-2020-Quick-Card/dp/1622702522) and the latest Ugly's (https://www.amazon.com/Uglys-Electr...WY5Y303NVJYXQZP).
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Apr 2, 2021 15:09
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You might be better served by something like https://www.amazon.com/Wiring-Complete-3rd-Michael-Litchfield/dp/1631868381 than the NEC codebook. DIY guidebooks will be for NEC 2017 and earlier but you can get the 2020 code changes (mostly GFI requirements) here or at places like ecmweb.com. I think the Black&Decker guidebooks are also pretty highly recommended.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:16
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SpartanIvy posted:Code book won't make any of it easy but it will make it safer and help me evaluate options. I'm still planning out the circuits I want and where so I'm not rushing to do anything. Most of what you need to do is plan distance and outlets, with a smattering of required dedicated circuits. The code includes far more than that. It sounds like what you want to do is a whole home rewire, which means getting things like a dedicated bathroom outlet and microwave appliance runs and cfci than reading the code. Getting it into the panel is the "easy" part. Getting it the other 200' is the pain in the rear end, and conduit isn't going to improve your life. Tl;Dr you're about to make so many holes in your walls.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:19
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H110Hawk posted:Tl;Dr you're about to make so many holes in your walls. This was recently recommended to me by another goon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KL4N25V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It's still a little bit fast even at it's slowest speed, but for the price you can beat it. I'm super impressed. (SpartanIvy you're gonna want one)
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Apr 2, 2021 15:26
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Motronic posted:That's certainly more straightforward, especially if there are no amendments, but it's still not something that's going to make a ton of sense to someone without training. In fact it may even be counter-productive for some things. Cool. I was looking at Uglys but was afraid the reverse was true and that it would just be wrote technical information out of context of the full book. I'll pick these both up. H110Hawk posted:Most of what you need to do is plan distance and outlets, with a smattering of required dedicated circuits. The code includes far more than that. It sounds like what you want to do is a whole home rewire, which means getting things like a dedicated bathroom outlet and microwave appliance runs and cfci than reading the code. My house is also a 900 sqft 2 bed/1 bath so not a lot of distance to cover. Figuring out dedicated outlets and making sure I'm planning for the future, like an EV charger, is very important so I'm spreadsheeting it up. Another instance where code would be good to flip through.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:35
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SpartanIvy posted:Cool. I was looking at Uglys but was afraid the reverse was true and that it would just be wrote technical information out of context of the full book. I'll pick these both up. I'm assuming you know the mechanics of this - how to use cable clamps, how to strip wire, how much to leave/not leave in the box, how to use a marette and attache to an outlet/switch safely and properly. If you've got all that down ugls pretty much has the rest of what you might run into that's not on the quick card already (which is great for choosing conductor sizes, box fill, etc). And for the few things that might not be covered like your EV charger thing you'll most likely want to be able to CTRL-F through a PDF of the NEC rather than flipping through the book.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:37
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Motronic posted:This was recently recommended to me by another goon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KL4N25V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I feel like making holes in the wall with a sander is perhaps the worst possible option. 
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Apr 2, 2021 16:14
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H110Hawk posted:I feel like making holes in the wall with a sander is perhaps the worst possible option. That's not what 20 grit is for?
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Apr 2, 2021 16:26
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I skip the middleman and just use a sandblaster to make holes.
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Apr 2, 2021 16:29
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H110Hawk posted:I feel like making holes in the wall with a sander is perhaps the worst possible option. Beats using a wallpaper steamer.
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Apr 2, 2021 16:31
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Deathwheels to cut deep pile shag carpet is my favorite dumb way I've done things. Careful you don't hit the slab!
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Apr 2, 2021 16:40
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I usually do suggest people cut circle holes in their sheetrock when they need a small window though. It's a lot easier to patch, especially if you aren't handy with mud. Something about straight lines sticking out in our eyes I'm sure.
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Apr 2, 2021 18:46
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SpartanIvy posted:
Fortunately 900sqft with an outdoor panel is best case for rewiring a house. And with a 200A panel and that square footage you're just about guaranteed to never be over load calcs.
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Apr 2, 2021 19:55
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The only thing you need to be worried about most likely is spaces in the panel. And looking at the size you have and the fact that it's 900sqft, that shouldn't be a problem. That size house I think trying to worry about THHN in conduit is going to be more of a headache than you think. What is your total goal here? Rewire everything to 20a breakers? Add more dedicated circuits? Bring up to code? It's probably a good thing that you are overthinking this because homeowners often do the opposite.
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Apr 2, 2021 20:22
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Rufio posted:
Rufio posted:If its that box you posted last page that is surface mounted on the outside of the house, then you only have a few options. From first glance I would probably run another conduit up into the soffit and just push wires through there, much like they did with that sealtight flex conduit. Just use something large so you can bring a few romex without a problem. Maybe even run a few spares up into the attic so you don't have to try and push more wires through later. You can't run romex in conduit outdoors.    A few runs of PVC conduit with THWN to jboxes in the attic and crawlspace is, imo, the best option for this task, could do LTFMC too, but that's costly.
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Apr 2, 2021 20:46
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Word. You are correct
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Apr 2, 2021 21:34
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Rufio posted:What is your total goal here? Rewire everything to 20a breakers? Add more dedicated circuits? Bring up to code?
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Apr 2, 2021 21:49
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How difficult is it to access the crawlspace vs the attic? If you're going to be rewiring everything anyway and even busting out boxes, you could just work only in the attic and abandon the crawlspace wiring.
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Apr 2, 2021 21:56
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Not saying it's a good idea here but why don't I see UF in that list?
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Apr 2, 2021 21:57
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UF uses (typically) THHN/THHW insulation, so does regular cable, the issue with NM in wet/damp locations is moisture wicking up the paper binder and corrosion, whereas UF has a tightly conformal outer coating, that's why I included the specific prohibition against NM cable in damp/wet locations.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:09
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Rufio posted:How difficult is it to access the crawlspace vs the attic? If you're going to be rewiring everything anyway and even busting out boxes, you could just work only in the attic and abandon the crawlspace wiring. I have a very low pitch roof, like 12" of run for every 4" of rise. It's basically impossible to get within 5 feet of the exterior walls of my house from the attic. Also the HVAC is crammed up there which makes part of it mostly inaccessible. Also I'm in Texas and the attic is hot even in the winter. The crawlspace on the other hand is cool and I can get right up to every exterior wall. Additionally, all the outlets are already wired through it, so there's already holes for cables to run through the floor. The only issue is that currently the first outlet in each room/circuit that receives power is fed from the attic. So I would disconnect that wire and run a new supply wire from the crawlspace. The exception being the bathroom and water heater(which shares a wall with the bathroom) and are both attic wired.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:09
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SpartanIvy posted:I have a very low pitch roof, like 12" of run for every 4" of rise. It's basically impossible to get within 5 feet of the exterior walls of my house from the attic. Also the HVAC is crammed up there which makes part of it mostly inaccessible. If the attic wire is already modern 14/2 w/ ground why not just add new 12/2 where relevant and have a mix of 15's and 20's? Unless you're doing indoor bitcoin mining or something seriously amp-intensive leaving the bedrooms as 15-amp circuits, perhaps dedicated to the rooms, isn't going to hurt you at all in reality. Worry about new runs for the kitchen where you have a lot of high draw appliances in a single room. (Fridge, toaster, microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal, coffee maker, you get the idea.) Or where it's required (dedicated CFCI 20A for outlets in the bathroom, separate from the lights.) Or re-purpose the the outlets into lights, etc. (Don't get me wrong, you do you, if you want to haul extra cable around or whatever knock yourself out. I certainly did a bunch of dumb poo poo in my garage only to put storage in all along the walls making it pointless.)
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Apr 2, 2021 22:22
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H110Hawk posted:If the attic wire is already modern 14/2 w/ ground why not just add new 12/2 where relevant and have a mix of 15's and 20's? Unless you're doing indoor bitcoin mining or something seriously amp-intensive leaving the bedrooms as 15-amp circuits, perhaps dedicated to the rooms, isn't going to hurt you at all in reality. Worry about new runs for the kitchen where you have a lot of high draw appliances in a single room. (Fridge, toaster, microwave, dishwasher, garbage disposal, coffee maker, you get the idea.) Or where it's required (dedicated CFCI 20A for outlets in the bathroom, separate from the lights.) Or re-purpose the the outlets into lights, etc. I should have probably mentioned it has no grounds! Original 1950 wiring. You bring up good points though.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:39
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My advice is typically to run 12ga any time you’re putting in new wire because the labor is the expensive part but if there’s perfectly good 14ga with ground and no pressing reason to replace it then leave it. Obviously if the existing wiring is 2 conductor ungrounded that all goes out the window.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:45
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corgski posted:My advice is typically to run 12ga any time you’re putting in new wire because the labor is the expensive part but if there’s perfectly good 14ga with ground and no pressing reason to replace it then leave it. I politely disagree with this, except for general purpose receptacle circuits. Lighting circuits, especially now that LEDs are dominant, don't need a 20 amp circuit, neither does any dedicated circuit under 15 amps. 14 gauge is easier to pull, easier to work with, you can fit more in a box, you can fit more under a nut. Unless the circuit loading calls for it I'll pull 14 any day, especially in a 900sqft house you can light it up like the surface of the sun for 1,440 watts, even with incandescents, and I always like to run a minimum of two lighting circuits just so you don't get plunged into pitch blackness if a squirrel chews through your wire or something.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:05
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SpartanIvy posted:I should have probably mentioned it has no grounds! Original 1950 wiring. You bring up good points though. Ungrounded wires with metal boxes, you love to see that.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:17
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Hey, at least if the hot shorts to the box it won't cause a fire!
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Apr 2, 2021 23:18
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20a/12ga to everything, and every room has a dedicated *separate* receptacle and lighting circuit. Kitchen possibly has 2 receptacle circuits*, in addition to whatever code requires to have a dedicated circuit.  *Edit* With Nema 1-20 receptacles for the 20a blender I'm definitely, one day, going to get angryrobots fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 23:24
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angryrobots posted:20a/12ga to everything, and every room has a dedicated *separate* receptacle and lighting circuit. Kitchen possibly has 2 receptacle circuits*, in addition to whatever code requires to have a dedicated circuit. 2 circuits in the kitchen is an absolute must for me. A dedicated 20 amp lighting circuit for each room is silly. Like, do you also run triple parallel 1000kcmil copper conductors to your 200 amp panel? Because that's the same level of ridiculous. With modern LED lights, let's say you have a really big room, takes 20 lights to light that mother up, that's about 200 watts, or 10% of the circuit's capacity (With an 80% derate!) Or the same as my service example. For a bedroom with, let's say 8 cans and 2 sconces, that would be 5% of the circuit's capacity. It's flat out a waste of time, money, and copper. E: I've run 20A lighting circuits.... for galleries and showrooms with close to 2000 watts of lights per circuit. 2000 watt dimmers are fugly, and they get reeeaaalll warm. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 23:45
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As I was bemoaning even having to deal with 14 wire in the 10 recessed LEDs I just added I was thinking "16 wire and 10 amp breakers is gonna have to be a thing soon for lighting circuits because with LEDs this is just getting ridiculous"
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Apr 2, 2021 23:49
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Elviscat posted:It's flat out a waste of time, money, and copper.  Motronic posted:As I was bemoaning even having to deal with 14 wire in the 10 recessed LEDs I just added I was thinking "16 wire and 10 amp breakers is gonna have to be a thing soon for lighting circuits because with LEDs this is just getting ridiculous" What did you go with? I've seen some of the new ones that use like a 1.5-2" hole for the LED fixture, which is powered by a LV cable from a central power source, basically like outdoor lighting. Those seem neat, and easier to work on later than can lights (which I hate with a passion. Pain to install; pain to work on at any point in the future).
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Apr 3, 2021 00:18
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angryrobots posted:20a/12ga to everything, and every room has a dedicated *separate* receptacle and lighting circuit. Kitchen possibly has 2 receptacle circuits*, in addition to whatever code requires to have a dedicated circuit. Dedicated 20A circuit for every room, yes. Plus a separate dedicated circuit per bedroom for window units if you’re in a house without central air since most of those now insist on a dedicated 15A minimum. Dedicated lighting per room is just silly outside of large commercial spaces however. My house is getting two lighting circuits for the entire finished portion of the house plus dedicated basement lighting solely because I don’t want it to go down if either of the house lighting circuits trip.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:22
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corgski posted:Dedicated 20A circuit for every room, yes. Plus a separate dedicated circuit per bedroom for window units if you’re in a house without central air since most of those now insist on a dedicated 15A minimum. That's a good idea too, we don't use window shakers much around here.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:28
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My plan, which I have not looked into the code of, is to have all lights, ceiling fans, exhaust fans, and an attic outlet on a single 20 amp circuit. Attic outlet is for security cameras and if I need to put a fan up there while I work.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:30
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SpartanIvy posted:My plan, which I have not looked into the code of, is to have all lights, ceiling fans, exhaust fans, and an attic outlet on a single 20 amp circuit. Attic outlet is a great idea, makes plugging lights, fans whatever in way easier. I'd encourage you to split the lighting circuit into two, so if one trips you can find the breaker box in the dark. I'd also encourage you to put wired smoke detectors in while you're up there, I like to put them on a lighting circuit so if they lose power and start chirping at you, you know why.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:35
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I would put my attic fans on their own circuit too but I don't think it is required. You've got that nice big breaker box, don't be shy about adding breakers. Keep in mind you may want to remodel at some point and change lighting or other power demands. Efficiency is good but having a little extra amperage around to tap into at some point is useful.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:50
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angryrobots posted:What did you go with? I've seen some of the new ones that use like a 1.5-2" hole for the LED fixture, which is powered by a LV cable from a central power source, basically like outdoor lighting. Those seem neat, and easier to work on later than can lights (which I hate with a passion. Pain to install; pain to work on at any point in the future). Lotus LRG2s: https://www.lotusledlights.com/recessed-lighting/gimbal/2-inch-regressed-gimbal-led-recessed-lighting 2" LED recessed gimbals, 2.5" rough opening.   Just about ready to prime the drywall patches from the two 6" cans I pulled out that you can see in that pic and the two boxes I removed from the other two pendants in the room. So many shadows, such poor light quality. These have looked great so far in testing. 10 of them in total around the room. And yeah, you can get gigantic low volt extension cables if you want to run them that way. In this case it was just easier to wire them in for lack of a compelling place to put all the AC/DC converters.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:02
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