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Halloween Jack posted:It's really interesting to me the way some silly holds (like the Indian deathlock) have an actual functional version in catch wrestling or other grappling styles. A friend has said he's seen MMA won with the Fuller leglock, which is absolutely not a hold I would like to be in.
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Apr 24, 2021 13:41
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I saw an mma once that ended with a shoot stone Cold stunner it was crazy. Can’t find the video though.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:15
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I watched a guy getting mugged do a DDT in a parking lot and was genuinely disappointed that it didn't immediately end the fight
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Apr 24, 2021 14:46
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forkboy84 posted:Basically yeah, but more to the point, the Inoki lineage of wrestling that runs through Maeda to Rings, Takada to UWF-I & Kingdom, Fujiwara to PWFG & Pancrase & Battlarts got a lot of appeal from the idea that these guys weren't just tough guys but elite fighters. UWFi was already dead and RINGS transitioning to real fights when Takada fought Gracie, that was more Takada cashing out. The birth of Pancrase and other groups hurt, UFC hurt, Anjo getting destroyed hurt, people knew it wasn't real and not only that they knew these weren't even close to the toughest guys. So you got NJPW finishing off UWFi and RINGS seeing the writing on the wall and becoming an MMA company.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:07
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Judging by my vast experience wrestling my cousins growing up, I can say the Figure Four hurts like a motherfucker
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Apr 24, 2021 20:36
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Since People are talking about Shoot Style, and I'm not super sure I know what that means- could somebody break down the different/historical Japanese styles? Like Strong Style vs. Shoot Style vs anything else that might be a thing.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:42
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Sandman McMahon posted:I saw an mma once that ended with a shoot stone Cold stunner it was crazy. Can’t find the video though. 
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Apr 24, 2021 21:15
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Karma Tornado posted:I watched a guy getting mugged do a DDT in a parking lot and was genuinely disappointed that it didn't immediately end the fight Did you tag in??
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Apr 24, 2021 21:31
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Dawgstar posted:A friend has said he's seen MMA won with the Fuller leglock, which is absolutely not a hold I would like to be in. Lazy like a Fox posted:Since People are talking about Shoot Style, and I'm not super sure I know what that means- could somebody break down the different/historical Japanese styles? Like Strong Style vs. Shoot Style vs anything else that might be a thing. * Strong Style is basically NJPW's tagline and can refer to whatever the house style is at the time. So the Choshu/Sasaki/Animal Hamaguchi style is as much Strong Style as Inoki's style, Ibushi's style, Tanahashi's style, etc. * Shoot Style refers to any promotion doing stripped down "realistic" wrestling in the UWF lineage, but there are degrees to it. The UWF/UWFi style was basically the NJPW version of shoot style, with more theatrics, flow rolling on the ground without any defense, suplexes, etc. RINGS was much more realistic and used a lot more people with zero to minimal pre-RINGS pro wrestling experience. PWFG was more UWF-ish with the ability to be offbeat at times. Battlarts ran the gamut from RINGS style to modern junior heavyweight wrestling with modern junior heavyweight moves but done with shoot style pacing. And Pancrase was theoretical shoots under modified UWF rules, but with tons of works mixed in as well as a lot of carrying and fight throwing to get new guys over. If you want to get a feel for how the different shoot style promotions varied, check out the Weekly Pro Wrestling 13 promotion dome show from the same day as WrestleMania XI. They ran the shoot style matches back to back, which made the differences pretty glaring. * Kings Road refers to the old AJPW style—really the '90s style—turned 2000s Pro Wrestling NOAH style with the simmering build into the big bomb throwing stretch run with tight storytelling. * It's entirely a western term as far as I know, and it's fallen out of style but there's also what used to be referred to as "Lucharesu." In other words: The promotions that can be traced to Universal Lucha Libre and Gran Hamada's influence, e.g. ULL/FULL, Michinoku Pro, Osaka Pro, Okinawa Pro, Toryumon Japan, T2P, Toryumon X, Dragon Gate, etc. * The style that headlined most FMW shows back in the day was referred to as Street Fight Style. (The more wild brawling everywhere plunder main events as opposed to the explosion matches.) * Big Japan, FREEDOMS, etc., are, of course, referred to as Death Match Style, but their wrestlers tend to be much better and with more interesting matches than most of the American death match guys, even the ones I like. Alex Colon would be the American who most works a style that resembles what you'd see in BJPW or FREEDOMS, with Eric Ryan being the only other one I'd really consider. * I feel like late period FMW (and then WEW) may have used "Entertainment Style" for their WWF-inspired stuff? I don't remember if DDT has. * Inoki vs. outside martial artists and other matches in that vein were specifically dubbed Different Style Fights. And then there are a bunch of offshoots that you can't necessarily pin down to one existing style, like WAR and Zero-One.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:46
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davidbix posted:Isn't the calf slicer basically a shoot Fuller Leglock? Yeah, pretty much. The idea some BJJ person saw Buddy Fuller work and stole his move amuses me more than whatever the truth probably is.
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Apr 25, 2021 02:26
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davidbix posted:* Big Japan, FREEDOMS, etc., are, of course, referred to as Death Match Style, but their wrestlers tend to be much better and with more interesting matches than most of the American death match guys, even the ones I like. Alex Colon would be the American who most works a style that resembles what you'd see in BJPW or FREEDOMS, with Eric Ryan being the only other one I'd really consider. Which Japanese guys would you recommend in this style? I've mostly only seen Kobayashi and Kasai.
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Apr 25, 2021 11:49
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collocation posted:Which Japanese guys would you recommend in this style? I've mostly only seen Kobayashi and Kasai. Masashi Takeda is the best in the world at deathmatches right now.
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Apr 25, 2021 12:07
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Masashi Takeda is the best in the world at deathmatches right now. Thanks, I don't know if it's among his best, but I'm watching "Death Match - FREEDOMS - Masashi Takeda vs Daisuke Masaoka . Bloodiest Match I have ever seen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLTOLgoa_A8 to check him out. It's pretty insane. I've never seen the other guy before either, but I keep on hoping that he won't kick out because nothing good seems like it's going to come from kicking out.
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Apr 25, 2021 12:25
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Takeda would probably be the best at the world at whatever form of wrestling he wanted to do, to be entirely honest. Your point about "Strong Style" not meaning a whole lot more than 'whatever New Japan does' is a good one I think: and I think that often becomes a thing with these branded styles. Modern All Japan sometimes uses "Kings Road" or similar things to market themselves even though the link to the 90s is tenuous at best - their secondary heavyweight tournament is called the "Royal Road" as an example of this. Modern New Japan in closer stylistically to 90s All Japan than 90s New Japan but to say that New Japan is a "Royal Road Style Promotion" would be silly since there's more to it than that. I think DDT use "DDT Style" but that doesn't really clarify a whole lot. It does show that these stylistic things can be very hard to define though: DDT do a lot of comedy and gimmick match stuff that would fit the "entertainment style" definition but with a few exceptions their big K-OD Title matches are as serious and generally gimmick-free as most other puro companies and so it might not fit those. Big Japan is sort of the same where the structure of the promotion is that you have Death Match guys that do deathmatches and then the Strong Division guys that, well, don't. It also feels to me that the in-ring style of all of these places has sort of converged but I might be wrong there.
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Apr 25, 2021 13:57
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I saw a Japanese death match in which two of the competitors were dressed as c3po and R2D2 - was this some kind of fever dream?
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Apr 25, 2021 13:58
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Manwithastick posted:I saw a Japanese death match in which two of the competitors were dressed as c3po and R2D2 - was this some kind of fever dream? Without looking it up, probably not. BJW once ran a show themed around Macbeth. They're a promotion that thinks outside the box. Might have also been M-Pro?
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Apr 25, 2021 13:59
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There's also a difference, in my opinion, between Strong Style as in New Japan main event style, and Strong Style as in NEVER Openweight match style. It's the difference between, say, Ibushi vs Jay White and Shingo vs Jeff Cobb.
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Apr 25, 2021 14:04
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Manwithastick posted:I saw a Japanese death match in which two of the competitors were dressed as c3po and R2D2 - was this some kind of fever dream? Probably the most recent Great Space War?
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Apr 25, 2021 14:20
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Sounds like Great Space War volume 10 https://youtu.be/vFV4KGmdooM
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Apr 25, 2021 14:24
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Didn't CHIKARA try to call themselves 'lucharesu' at one point? I remember on a SHIMMER promo where they first started brining in joshi wrestlers Allison Danger cut a promo calling the promotion 'the finest in American joshi' which, you know, I get what she meant but at the same time is pretty funny.
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Apr 25, 2021 14:48
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They got that from UWA, Osaka Pro and M-Pro
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Apr 25, 2021 14:57
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How do wrestlers talk to each other in the ring with giant crowds screaming at them? How can they hear each other? Is this one of those 'Chris has bad audio processing issues' things?
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Apr 25, 2021 16:02
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ChrisBTY posted:How do wrestlers talk to each other in the ring with giant crowds screaming at them? How can they hear each other? Is this one of those 'Chris has bad audio processing issues' things? Isn't that what chinlock spots are for? Also if there is a giant crowd screaming I'd imagine you can be pretty loud yourself without the audience really noticing.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:04
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from watching training videos, my impression is also that, while talking happens, there's a lot of physical cues and signals used as well. iirc i watched a video of kenny omega doing a one-off training session, and had people do rope-running spots. The type of spot they'd do (leapfrog, clothesline, bypass, whatever) was basically entirely down to the physical position the leader was in. I can't remember if it was the runner or the person standing in the middle, but one of them basically controlled the whole bit without saying a word. There's also stuff like tapping or squeezing, i.e. to signal readiness, that you can sometimes catch if you pay super close attention. NEDIT: that is to say, i think this is part of what wrestlers mean when they discuss "calling a match in the ring". Not entirely audible calls.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:54
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collocation posted:Which Japanese guys would you recommend in this style? I've mostly only seen Kobayashi and Kasai. Kasai, Takeda, Toru Sugiura, Takayuki Ueki, Yuko Miyamoto are some of the standouts. But I tend to watch Freedoms more than anyone else. Just from a time perspective mainly.
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Apr 25, 2021 17:12
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Procrastinator posted:from watching training videos, my impression is also that, while talking happens, there's a lot of physical cues and signals used as well. iirc i watched a video of kenny omega doing a one-off training session, and had people do rope-running spots. The type of spot they'd do (leapfrog, clothesline, bypass, whatever) was basically entirely down to the physical position the leader was in. I can't remember if it was the runner or the person standing in the middle, but one of them basically controlled the whole bit without saying a word. There's also stuff like tapping or squeezing, i.e. to signal readiness, that you can sometimes catch if you pay super close attention. I imagine this is also why going between different sized rings in cross-promotional stuff screws people up so badly. If you're used to one thing happening when the opponent is a foot away from you and now there's a foot of difference to the ring, it probably buggers all your timing.
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Apr 25, 2021 18:18
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Cerebral Bore posted:Isn't that what chinlock spots are for? NOW! NOW! SHINSUKE, NOW!
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Apr 25, 2021 18:26
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Procrastinator posted:from watching training videos, my impression is also that, while talking happens, there's a lot of physical cues and signals used as well. iirc i watched a video of kenny omega doing a one-off training session, and had people do rope-running spots. The type of spot they'd do (leapfrog, clothesline, bypass, whatever) was basically entirely down to the physical position the leader was in. I can't remember if it was the runner or the person standing in the middle, but one of them basically controlled the whole bit without saying a word. There's also stuff like tapping or squeezing, i.e. to signal readiness, that you can sometimes catch if you pay super close attention. There's also a lot that gets boiled down to a couple of words. You don't need to say "Run to the ropes, I'll do a leapfrog then a dropdown then a clothesline" - you can get it across with "Leapfrog, dropdown, take a line". You also don't need to say it all at once if you're building to a spot.
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Apr 25, 2021 18:28
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Ganso Bomb posted:There's also a lot that gets boiled down to a couple of words. You don't need to say "Run to the ropes, I'll do a leapfrog then a dropdown then a clothesline" - you can get it across with "Leapfrog, dropdown, take a line". You also don't need to say it all at once if you're building to a spot. Although shorthand can go wrong. In his first book Foley talks about working with Sam Houston who simply told him ‘watch the elbow.’ Take it? Duck it? Even years later Mick never figured it out. I believe he then bumped for a move that never came, or at least never connected.
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Apr 25, 2021 19:10
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davidbix posted:A bunch of awesome Thank you for that great response! Puro is such a blind spot for me in terms of my wrestling knowledge- looks like I've got some old matches to watch.
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Apr 25, 2021 19:13
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Dawgstar posted:Although shorthand can go wrong. In his first book Foley talks about working with Sam Houston who simply told him ‘watch the elbow.’ Take it? Duck it? Even years later Mick never figured it out. I believe he then bumped for a move that never came, or at least never connected. True - it's easy to know what everyone means when you're training with a group of people but there's a lot of region-specific terminology or just weirdness that could get confusing in the moment.
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Apr 25, 2021 19:20
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Dawgstar posted:Although shorthand can go wrong. In his first book Foley talks about working with Sam Houston who simply told him ‘watch the elbow.’ Take it? Duck it? Even years later Mick never figured it out. I believe he then bumped for a move that never came, or at least never connected. Somewhat related, Foley was excited to work with Terry Funk because he had the best punches in the business and he wanted to see how he did it up close. Turns out Funk was just actually punching people. I'd love a behind the scenes thing with wrestlers mic'd up and doing a regular match. Cena used to come close to that.
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Apr 25, 2021 19:25
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Dawgstar posted:Although shorthand can go wrong. In his first book Foley talks about working with Sam Houston who simply told him ‘watch the elbow.’ Take it? Duck it? Even years later Mick never figured it out. I believe he then bumped for a move that never came, or at least never connected. "Beeboo Crawshanks"
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Apr 25, 2021 19:31
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SirDippingSauce posted:"Beeboo Crawshanks" well that was less short-hand going wrong and more Jericho mishearing Shelton saying "T-Bone Suplex"
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Apr 25, 2021 19:37
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Somewhat related, Foley was excited to work with Terry Funk because he had the best punches in the business and he wanted to see how he did it up close. Who has the best worked punches? Is it Lawler? https://twitter.com/allan_cheapshot/status/949442460371111937
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Apr 25, 2021 19:44
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Vader, but that might fall into the Terry Funk category of whether he was just punching people legit
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Apr 25, 2021 19:54
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I'm still bewildered how terminator Kota threw those punches at Okada at last year's Wrestle Kingdom and didn't kill him.
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Apr 25, 2021 20:26
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Isn’t Memphis in general known for the best-looking worked punches?
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Apr 25, 2021 21:01
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jesus WEP posted:Isn’t Memphis in general known for the best-looking worked punches?
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Apr 25, 2021 22:25
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Scott Hall had great punches
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Apr 25, 2021 22:35
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