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Silly Newbie posted:Oh hey, the end of the second Fencer book by KJ Parker Think of it this way: in the first two books Bardas is presented as someone with a normal system of morals and ethics well within the baseline of his society, while his brother Gorgas is a sociopath. At the end of The Belly of the Bow, Bardas learns that his brother was not only responsible for the sack of Perimadeia, he had done so as part of a series of manipulations to get the family back together. Bardas, seeing the untold death and destruction Gorgas has wrought with his actions, decides that Gorgas needs to face some sort of punishment for his crime, and thus set his mind to hurting his brother in the most personal, intimate manner possible. Unfortunately, since Gorgas is a sociopath, the act means nothing to him, and he forgives Bardas. I see the that part of the story as a comparison of the evils committed by the moral and amoral. Cold utilitarian calculation can destroy millions in the name of accomplishing an objective, but passions and ideals of traditional morality can foster exquisite cruelties in the name of righteousness. I suppose that also gets to the Parkerian absurdity at the heart of the Fencer trilogy. To paraphrase Farah Mendelson in her Rhetorics of Fantasy, by the end of the trilogy millions have been killed and displaced, great cities have been laid to ruin, the entire history of the world has been changed forever...all so one brother can make up a family quarrel with another. And it doesn't even work.
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May 19, 2021 10:34
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Marshal Radisic posted:Think of it this way: in the first two books Bardas is presented as someone with a normal system of morals and ethics well within the baseline of his society, while his brother Gorgas is a sociopath. At the end of The Belly of the Bow, Bardas learns that his brother was not only responsible for the sack of Perimadeia, he had done so as part of a series of manipulations to get the family back together. Bardas, seeing the untold death and destruction Gorgas has wrought with his actions, decides that Gorgas needs to face some sort of punishment for his crime, and thus set his mind to hurting his brother in the most personal, intimate manner possible. Unfortunately, since Gorgas is a sociopath, the act means nothing to him, and he forgives Bardas. I see the that part of the story as a comparison of the evils committed by the moral and amoral. Cold utilitarian calculation can destroy millions in the name of accomplishing an objective, but passions and ideals of traditional morality can foster exquisite cruelties in the name of righteousness. From what we know of his time in the military, Bardas was involved in the slaughter of non-combatants. He wasn't going around indiscriminately killing for fun, but he had shown himself to have little compunction about getting involved in killing innocents when it's judged as being needed.. Hell, his career as of the time we're introduced to him in the books is legally fighting people to the death for money. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 12:04 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 12:02
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Little help please goons. My dad's birthday is coming up and he likes sci fi books of pretty much all kinds so I'm not picky. As I cant really read the whole thread what's some of your fav sci fi released in say the last 18 months as he hasnt really put anything new onto his kindle in a while. Can be anything as dense as Dune or light like The Martian. Thanks.
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May 19, 2021 21:12
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Just Chamber posted:Little help please goons. My dad's birthday is coming up and he likes sci fi books of pretty much all kinds so I'm not picky. As I cant really read the whole thread what's some of your fav sci fi released in say the last 18 months as he hasnt really put anything new onto his kindle in a while. Can be anything as dense as Dune or light like The Martian. Thanks. The Murderbot Diaries.
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May 19, 2021 22:25
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Gats Akimbo posted:Have you read the 3 post-trilogy books? Nah, are they worth checking out? Was feeling a little tired of austere greatness by the end of the of the series.
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May 19, 2021 22:31
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pradmer posted:
I heard through the first two of the audiobooks of this trilogy. It wasn't good and will probably be one of the rare cases, where I stop before finishing a series.
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May 19, 2021 22:31
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I finished Project Hail Mary, the new Andy Weir book. I'd say it was pretty good. It's still a lot of competence porn, with a different scope and some more sci-fiey elements.
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May 19, 2021 22:44
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ToxicFrog posted:The Murderbot Diaries. This looks great thanks. If anyone has any other suggestions for good recent sci fi please share 
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May 19, 2021 22:49
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Best Served Cold (First Law) by Joe Abercrombie - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002GUK7JQ/ Dark Matter by Blake Crouch - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0180T0IUY/ King of Thorns (Broken Empire #2) by Mark Lawrence - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0072NWJ3Y/ Skyward by Brandon Sanderson - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BJLB5LY/ Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007UH4D3G/ Red Rising by Pierce Brown - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CVS2J80/ Skin Game (Dresden Files #15) by Jim Butcher - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HUVUSZ4/ Eragon (Inheritance #1) by Christopher Paolini - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FBJCK8/
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May 19, 2021 22:54
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Just Chamber posted:Little help please goons. My dad's birthday is coming up and he likes sci fi books of pretty much all kinds so I'm not picky. As I cant really read the whole thread what's some of your fav sci fi released in say the last 18 months as he hasnt really put anything new onto his kindle in a while. Can be anything as dense as Dune or light like The Martian. Thanks. A Memory Called Empire was published in 2019. It's also very good. If he somehow has read that already: the sequel was published March 2021.
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May 19, 2021 22:58
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Optional Retirement Plan by Chris pourteau was pretty good. Basic plot is a hitman on the moon starts accidently spoiling secrets he shouldn't because of a brain problem, gets a hit put out on him, decides that he doesn't appreciate it and proceeds to make his feelings known. There Is No Antimemetics Division was pretty good too. It's scp fiction basically. Great read though if he's into that. I loved it. The Arcadian series by Greig Beck is pretty cool. It's like if Captain America was shot in the head instead of given mega steroids, and gained weird rear end abilities and fought weird poo poo ranging from Lovecraftian monsters to a crazy Iranian leader who figured it how to make black holes as a wmd. Sci Fi but not in space.
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May 19, 2021 23:00
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:There Is No Antimemetics Division was pretty good too. It's scp fiction basically. Great read though if he's into that. I loved it. I was gonna recommend this and their book Ra as well. Good stuff. I'm halfway through Steel Frame and that's pretty good so far
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May 19, 2021 23:20
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tokenbrownguy posted:Nah, are they worth checking out? Was feeling a little tired of austere greatness by the end of the of the series. They get much less austere and more human.
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May 20, 2021 00:14
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StrixNebulosa posted:A friend of mine recently asked: Quite a few pages back and a long time ago but wanted to say thanks for this, I was looking for a series in this vein and am enjoying the Black Company books.
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May 20, 2021 02:28
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to tidy this up from a discord chat log sorry.
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squirrelzipper posted:Quite a few pages back and a long time ago but wanted to say thanks for this, I was looking for a series in this vein and am enjoying the Black Company books. 
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May 20, 2021 02:38
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Black company is one of my all time favorites but I'd recommend that after book three or four you implement dune rules
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May 20, 2021 03:27
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Just Chamber posted:This looks great thanks. If anyone has any other suggestions for good recent sci fi please share The light brigade by Hurley for recent stuff
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May 20, 2021 03:37
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SFL Archives Vol 21a has been good. There is so many discussion threads in it SFL Archives Vol 21a that deserve reposting in full, from the GRRM being extremely mad about SLIDERS, the people posting about a 1990's bi-monthly rave slash BDSM themed SFF convention, to more Daniel Keys Moran stupidity cropping up, other non-SFF rave convention drama, to a heated discussion about 1990's fandom that is kicked off by the resident TOR book editor in the SFL Archives using the scarlet A word (autism) to describe SFF convention goers/SFF fandom culture.
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May 20, 2021 04:19
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Black company is one of my all time favorites but I'd recommend that after book three or four you implement dune rules Oh and for the love of god, skip Port of Shadows. Though I like some of the later books
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May 20, 2021 07:51
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Walh Hara posted:A Memory Called Empire was published in 2019. It's also very good. If he somehow has read that already: the sequel was published March 2021. It's my favourite newly released ongoing series, I'd recommend it to anyone who's looking for good sci fi. There's good world building, the characters aren't made of cardboard and there's a good blend of action and intrigue so it'll likely do something for the reader even if you usually only read one or the other.
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May 20, 2021 12:05
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tokenbrownguy posted:Nah, are they worth checking out? Was feeling a little tired of austere greatness by the end of the of the series. Like mllaneza says they get a lot less like that at that point. Tehanu is "retired ex-wizard trying to figure out non-celibate relationships and deal with his gf's adopted daughter's abusive psycho family", Tales of Earthsea is some fun short stories (well, apart from Dragonfly because my god Irian is boring) and The Other Wind is, well, let's say enjoyed by people who aren't me. (Though I do like Seserakh.)
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May 20, 2021 12:59
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Earthsea is like Dune, when the fun stops stop. UK readers: a reminder that The Tyrant Baru Cormorant is now out in physical form on the correct side of the pond.
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May 20, 2021 13:12
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So Kentaro Miura, creator of the most impressively illustrated fantasy comic Berserk, died this month. His work influenced everything from Final Fantasy 7 to Dark Souls to Avengers Endgame to Between Two Fires, etc, etc. If you like fantasy I highly recommend checking out his illustrations. 
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May 20, 2021 15:04
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Jedit posted:Earthsea is like Dune, when the fun stops stop. I was irrationally upset when I saw they had been released in the UK but the book names were missing "Baru Cormorant" and the cover art for them screams "generic fantasy novel" instead of the cool stuff it was originally (haven't read any of them but I will soon I promise)
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May 20, 2021 15:30
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Jedit posted:Earthsea is like Dune, when the fun stops stop. This has been true since August 11th, 2020 though?
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May 20, 2021 15:54
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https://twitter.com/craig_schaefer/status/1394672835457699848 craig...
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May 20, 2021 21:58
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Matter (Culture #7) by Iain M Banks - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VMHI98/ The Library at Mount Char by Scott Hawkins - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRQRWAA/
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May 20, 2021 22:13
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The Glumslinger posted:Oh and for the love of god, skip Port of Shadows. Didn't know that port of shadows was a thing tbh. And yeah I read the whole story and finished it but some of the Sleepy parts... Sheeesh
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May 20, 2021 22:21
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It’s been a few months, I was wondering what was up.
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May 20, 2021 22:40
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------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1996 17:30:17 -0500 From: kecooper@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen E Cooper) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture These questions are primarily for the oldtimers and history-minded among us, although everyone should feel free to discuss (like I could stop you): Has Fandom always been a place where people who are "different" can come together and find acceptance? Or is it more accurate to say that Fandom is where there are interesting people and ideas? Is the fannish openness to alternative lifestyles a core value of Fandom, or is it merely a consequence of having about the sorts of people to are attracted to Fandom? Karen ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1996 20:04:49 -0400 From: pnh@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Karen E Cooper (kecooper@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote: >Has Fandom always been a place where people who are "different" can come >together and find acceptance? Fandom has always been a place where _some_ people who are "different" can find acceptance. "Difference," per se, is not enough. >Or is it more accurate to say that Fandom is where there are interesting >people and ideas? "Science fiction is a literature of ideas. About three of them." - Anne Laurie Logan >Is the fannish openness to alternative lifestyles a core value of Fandom, >or is it merely a consequence of having about the sorts of people to are >attracted to Fandom? The latter, I'd say. Fandom is a particular cohort, a place where some particular communities overlap. It isn't an ideology. Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@tor.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 1996 06:25:27 GMT From: cyohtee <cyohtee@tezcat.com> Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture I believe that, in general, our ability to enjoy Science Fiction and Fantasy better facilitates our ability to accept people who are different than we are. There are very few Xenophobes who would ever want to read Science Fiction or Fantasy. Spirits forbid they would have to contemplate the horrors of an alien species or a Centaur. Thus, we are already more open to accept those with alternative lifestyles. If we can accept Blue Men from Zaltar, then we can easily accept the far more mundane concepts (comparatively) of Homosexuals, crossdressers, nerds, geeks, blacks whites, Satanists, pagans, etc.. The Fannish Community is an open, friendly place for the most part. Yes we have our share of "Idiot Cousins", bigots and assholes, but for the most part if you are willing to accept us for what we are we will accept you for what you are too. I don't know if I qualify as an old-timer or not. I have only been attending conventions for about 19 years, and there are people who have been around a lot longer than me. As for whether Fandom is more accepting of people who are "Different" or whether Fandom is where the interesting and intelligent people are, I would have to say... BOTH. It all depends on your point of view. cyohtee@tezcat.com ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 1996 10:01:34 -0400 From: hlavaty@panix.com (Arthur Hlavaty) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Karen E Cooper (kecooper@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote: >Has Fandom always been a place where people who are "different" can come >together and find acceptance? [...] >Or is it more accurate to say that Fandom is where there are interesting >people and ideas? It's a combination of these. To me the ideal of fandom is that it is a society which places a premium on interesting ideas to the point of being willing to ignore difference in race, creed, nationality, sexual preference, appearance, table manners, etc.. Arthur D. Hlavaty hlavaty@panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:38:48 -0600 From: romm@winternet.com (David E Romm) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture kecooper@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Karen E Cooper) wrote: >Has Fandom always been a place where people who are "different" can come >together and find acceptance? No. Fandom has its own subculture, and within the subculture the rules can be very strict. There are few set rules, but we can tell when someone has Trangressed The Unwritten Law. The flip site to that is that fannish rules are not the same as mundane rules. If you're different _from society_, that will not be held against you. Much. >Or is it more accurate to say that Fandom is where there are interesting >people and ideas? They're interesting to me. That's all that really matters... to me. >Is the fannish openness to alternative lifestyles a core value of Fandom, >or is it merely a consequence of having about the sorts of people to are >attracted to Fandom? We're not all that open to alternative lifestyles, actually. How many blacks/hispanics/asians are there in fandom? How many Lutheran housewives (ala the reunion in the same hotel at a 4th St. years ago)? How many BMX Bikers, Debaters, HS Football coaches, Amway dealers, politicians or insurance salesmen? We don't deal with Act-up or PETA or Operation Rescue. If a fan is involved with any of these, their 'mundane' life will be subsumed into their fannish life, at least around other fen. Fandom is a meritocracy, within certain bounds of what will generate egoboo. Selling $1,000,000 worth of insurance won't generate egoboo, but writing about hitchhiking to a con will. Fandom is open in many respects, and closed in others. I don't have a problem with this. There are other subcultures that are a lot of fun for its believers. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1996 22:05:25 -0400 From: nancyl@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Karen E Cooper <kecooper@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote: >Has Fandom always been a place where people who are "different" can come >together and find acceptance? I suspect it's a rather specific kind of differentness rather than differentness in general, but fandom's been a haven for *something* at least since the early seventies, which is when I got into it. >Or is it more accurate to say that Fandom is where there are interesting >people and ideas? Both. >Is the fannish openness to alternative lifestyles a core value of Fandom, >or is it merely a consequence of having about the sorts of people to are >attracted to Fandom? I think it's a consequence and I also believe that fandom is shaped by being essentially a hedonist sub-culture. Nancy Lebovitz nancyL@universe.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1996 04:06:26 GMT From: kathbob@ix.netcom.com (Robert J. Berlien/Kathryn J. Routliffe) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture And the discussion's going nicely. I'd just like to add that I can usually spot a fan when I see or speak with one. Modes of dress, even speech patterns are indicators. When I was working in retail I'd often buttonhole customers I suspected of being fen and ask them if they indeed were. I was right about 85% of the time; sometimes the answer has been "Yeah! How'dja Know?" Sometimes it's "Yes, I read SF... Conventions? No, never been to one." I can spot fen who don't know they're fen. Bob Berlien kathbob@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1996 06:54:18 -0400 From: pnh@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture I've had the same experience. What's disturbing is that, whatever it is that sets off my radar in this regard, I get exactly the same signal from adult, life-functional borderline autistics. Well, autism is a disorder in which one of the symtoms is great difficulty grasping the social rules by which others operate. And science fiction and fantasy stories have a tendency to be stories in which the rules of the world at hand are carefully, and fairly explicitly, spelled out. I'm not seriously asserting that fandom is a condition of extremely mild borderline autism. But it's spooky how far you can go with the assertion, and how much sense it keeps making. Particularly at 2 am in the con suite, when you're surrounded by people who have obvious difficulty modulating their voices, who move strangely, who don't seem to quite inhabit their bodies or be comfortable with touch, and yet who are obviously also benevolent and intelligent and functional. This is the kind of assertion that always provokes lots of literal-minded counterargument on Usenet. Instead of thrashing about with whether it's literally true (since it probably isn't), can we take it as a jumping-off point for discussing the observation that there really do seem to be identifiable "fan" behavior patterns, like (for instance) the extremely common "fannish accent" of poorly modulated, slightly quacking speech? And discuss why this might be the case? Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@tor.com ------------------------------ 1,, Mail-from: From sflovers Wed May 15 09:36:59 1996 Return-Path: sflovers Received: (from sflovers@localhost) by sflovers.rutgers.edu (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA21943; Wed, 15 May 1996 09:07:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:07:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199605151307.JAA21943@sflovers.rutgers.edu> From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu> Errors-To: sf-lovers-errors@rutgers.edu To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS Precedence: list Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V21 #191 Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-MISC@rutgers.edu *** EOOH *** Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:07:36 -0400 From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu> Errors-To: sf-lovers-errors@rutgers.edu To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS Precedence: list Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V21 #191 Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-MISC@rutgers.edu SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 15 May 1996 Volume 21 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Fannish Culture (11 msgs) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 11:50:51 GMT From: awnbreel@panix.com (Michael R Weholt) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture pnh@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote: >... can we take it as a jumping-off point for discussing the observation >that there really do seem to be identifiable "fan" behavior patterns, like >(for instance) the extremely common "fannish accent" of poorly modulated, >slightly quacking speech? And discuss why this might be the case? It's so funny you should mention this. A while back I heard that Octavia Butler was going to be interviewed on WNYC here and, as I like her work, I tuned in with Anticipation (Bated Breath being busy that day). Anyway, when the interview began I was stunned, *stunned* to hear her speaking in what I would call the quintessential "Fannish Accent". I don't know why this so thoroughly surprised me, but I remember thinking at the time, wow, there really *is* an accent among SF fans. Course, I've never been to a con so what might seem obvious to you'all came as a minor epiphany to me. I can't really account for it, and I don't mean to insult anybody, but I do remember pondering the question specifically while listening carefully to the accent. It feels to me like there is a tremendous amount of "consideration" going on behind the words ... a tremendous amount of weighing the possible effects of what one is about to say. Will it be regarded as witty? Informed? Old-hat? Granted, in the case at bar, Ms. Butler was being interviewed on the radio so, of course, she was giving great consideration to her words, but maybe that serves to explain rather than taint the evidence. I.e., maybe the accent comes from the fact that the people who "have it" feel as if they are always being interviewed, or that there is some heightened level of performance going on. In any case, it seems extremely "self-aware" to me, or perhaps "heavily copy-edited on the fly". The other thing I noticed, over and over, was that "verbal tic" that comes whenever one ventures a joke: one slips in the bon mot, then immediately slips in after it a small and quick "but, uh ... " or something similar, followed by a quick sniffing up of the surrounding air that seems to signal "I'm willing to take this joke back if it's not funny", or (should the auditor find the remark amusing) it functions as a verbal "tophat", ba-ding-boom. But, uh ... (*sniff*) ... Michael R Weholt awnbreel@panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:37:15 +0800 From: Leigh Edmonds <ledmonds@echidna.cowan.edu.au> Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture On 23 Apr 1996, Arthur Hlavaty wrote: >To me the ideal of fandom is that it is a society which places a premium >on interesting ideas to the point of being willing to ignore difference in >race, creed, nationality, sexual preference, appearance, table manners, >etc. I don't know if I'm willing to pass on table manners... In reality, while fandom likes to think that it has no cultural biases you only have to look at the people who go to conventions to see what the rules of entry and behaviour are. They might not be middle-America values, but they are offshoots of it. Leigh Edmonds ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1996 16:04:50 GMT From: janiceg@Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture I'd like to throw another observation into the pot: I think many fans have a problem judging personal space - that is, they tend to get much closer while speaking to another person than is the norm. As for *why* there might be identifiable and common traits, that's certainly a lot tougher than identifying them. I think it might be the same conundrum as we observe here in Silicon Valley about Marketing people: are there certain personality types who are drawn to being suits, or is it that once you become a suit, you develop certain personality traits to fit in? Janice Gelb janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:50:22 GMT From: aahz@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Janice Gelb <janiceg@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote: >As for *why* there might be identifiable and common traits, that's >certainly a lot tougher than identifying them. I think it might be the >same conundrum as we observe here in Silicon Valley about Marketing >people: are there certain personality types who are drawn to being suits, >or is it that once you become a suit, you develop certain personality >traits to fit in? Judging by the several tech support people I know who've moved into marketing/sales, I think it's a bit of both. Aahz@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1996 20:43:16 GMT From: nrider@us.oracle.com (Anne B. "Nonie" Rider) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture romm@winternet.com (David E Romm) wrote: >We're not all that open to alternative lifestyles, actually. How many >blacks/hispanics/asians are there in fandom? As many as were interested in it, last I knew. I certainly know plenty of all three, but you're right they're not in proportion to the rest of society. It's not that fandom is hostile to these groups, at least where I've been. It's that fandom just doesn't care one way or the other. Some ethnic folks just aren't attracted to fandom and its interests in the first place. Others are put off when their special interests aren't addressed. I've seen the same happen in gaming. Overall, fandom is friendly if you're primarily interested in fandom, at least while you're there. It's not that friendly to folks who want to focus on active politics (except as concerns electronic freedom), religion (especially non-pagan), or hobbies that don't overlap with fannish interests. Hmmm. Twenty years ago, I'm not sure I'd have predicted the punk, piercing, or leather crowds, although they do tie in with some of fandom's fondness for costumes and shock value. I wonder what the trends will be in the next few decades? I can see it now: panels on "Fandom and Carpentry," "Women with One-Syllable Names in SF," and a deep fascination with liquid-filled watchbands. Nonie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:25:18 -0600 From: romm@winternet.com (David E Romm) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture kathbob@ix.netcom.com(Robert J. Berlien/Kathryn J. Routliffe) wrote: >I'd just like to add that I can usually spot a fan when I see or speak >with one. Modes of dress, even speech patterns are indicators. Yes, but that works for many groups. A little knowledge of NLP helps; watch the eyes. Being into massage, I look at posture and arm movements for clues. Fans tend to be high self-monitors, and yet are curious about their environment as they wander through life. I'm not sure I could describe what to look for subjectively. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:53:53 GMT From: alison@fuggles.demon.co.uk (Alison Scott) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture pnh@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) wrote: >I've had the same experience. What's disturbing is that, whatever it is >that sets off my radar in this regard, I get exactly the same signal from >adult, life-functional borderline autistics. > >Well, autism is a disorder in which one of the symtoms is great difficulty >grasping the social rules by which others operate. And science fiction >and fantasy stories have a tendency to be stories in which the rules of >the world at hand are carefully, and fairly explicitly, spelled out. > >I'm not seriously asserting that fandom is a condition of extremely mild >borderline autism. But it's spooky how far you can go with the assertion, >and how much sense it keeps making. Particularly at 2 am in the con >suite, when you're surrounded by people who have obvious difficulty >modulating their voices, who move strangely, who don't seem to quite >inhabit their bodies or be comfortable with touch, and yet who are >obviously also benevolent and intelligent and functional. > >This is the kind of assertion that always provokes lots of literal-minded >counterargument on Usenet. Instead of thrashing about with whether it's >literally true (since it probably isn't), can we take it as a jumping-off >point for discussing the observation that there really do seem to be >identifiable "fan" behavior patterns, like (for instance) the extremely >common "fannish accent" of poorly modulated, slightly quacking speech? >And discuss why this might be the case? Well, I think this is an interesting topic to knock about. Firstly, I'm by no means certain that it's not literally true, or quite close to being literally true. Certainly when I was a small child there were health workers concerned that I showed some symptons consistent with some forms of brain damage. My mother tells this tale as a joke now - they stopped worrying when I was about 18 months old, by which time there was no doubt I was a very bright kid. The lack of physical co-ordination didn't actually go away or anything, though. Also, I'm perfectly aware that I only function in "normal" society by means of a set of learned responses to situations which many people tackle intuitively. I learnt pretty early on that tackling things intuitively was never going to be a likely approach for me. This was brought sharply into focus when I managed a large number of staff. I'm an adequate manager; good in some respects, passable in most, poor in some. But over and over again, I found myself using my brain to tackle a staff problem that more natural managers just used their guts for; I found the business of staff management astonishingly hard work as a result. And then I got the job I'm doing now, where I'm working with a lot of people whose primary skill is a curiosity of mind. The peculiar thing is, a good minority of the people in our office would be picked up by your fan antennae; all the same oddities are there. I'm the only SF fan, though there are plenty of SF readers. Looking around in fandom, there are relatively large numbers of people who are less good at functioning in everyday society than I am, and a somewhat smaller number who are clearly incapable of functioning in everyday society, and for whom fandom represents their only society. There are also many people for whom this is not a problem at all, or course. And I do think it's very much a matter of not coping with the rules that society sets, or, to be more precise, not picking up those rules intuitively and having to carefully construct them from observed behaviour. Alison Scott alison@fuggles.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1996 23:55:59 -0500 From: whitroth@miso.wwa.com (mark) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Mark starts up on one of his favorite hobbyhorses (usually ridden on Sunday afternoon in the Con Suite)... I've been saying for a few years now that fandom is not only a subculture (that's been recognized since the sixties, and not just by fen), but that it's approaching a culture in its own right. Now, before I go on, I've got to give a def. of culture: a 'culture' has its own understanding of the world, of What It's All About - a worldview. Now, any member of that culture may accept *or* *reject*, either in part, or in whole, that worldview but, it is *that* *worldview* that their view of the world is based on. Oh, and while I'm at it, the dividing line between subculture and culture is when > 50% of the new members of the culture are folks who have been brought up within the culture (i.e., kids), rather than converts. It is based on the things that make up the "Std. Western Worldview" (though at this point in time, I'll argue that such a thing no longer exists, having been so fragmented as to be a meaningless phrase), as *all* cultures are based on wherever they evolved, but that there are significant differences. For example: personal space. Most fen seem to be comfortable at smaller personal spaces than the English-based 6-8 feet. Touching is *very* different than the British-based US norm: I mean, you walk into a non-fannish group, and see someone giving someone else a massage, and you *know* you'll hear gossip about whether they've been to bed together yet. Or how many *guys* hug, when they meet, and haven't seen each other in a while? Then there's the idea that the relationships between folks should make sense. This, in fact, is probably why most of us didn't do well in the mundane world, at least as kids: the others acted in weird, pointless, and often downright self-defeating ways. "Why on earth did she say 'no', when she really, really likes him?" And of *course, there's the thing in fandom that, as long as you're not totally obnoxious, the *more* you know, the *more* folks want to talk to you. Oh, yes: youse guys *read*. You're right out there with the Unabomber for *WEIRD*. A few years back, some folks we were just getting friendly with came to our place for the first time. As I showed her around the house, we got to the library. She looked, incredulous, then called her husband in. They'd never seen anything like in, in someone's house... and these weren't out-of-it folks, he was a high-up honcho in some company, and good enough that when he got another job as a VP somewhere in the NW, they moved him. And they'd never seen a private library. Remember that great line in Time After Time, when Mary <sigh> Steenbergen has invited Malcolm MacDowell (as H.G. Wells) to her apt., and as she makes dinner, he looks around, and asks, "Where are your books?", and she answers, "There's some magazines under the tv"... I think that we are the evolved, and last children of the twenties, when there was a view that we *could* make things better, that we *could* improve our lives, and those of our kids, with technology (used carefully), and that the only Golden Age was the one that we were helping to build. And I'm drat glad of most of a life in fandom. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 12:35:42 GMT From: "David G. Bell" <dbell@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture janiceg@Eng.Sun.COM "Janice Gelb" writes: >I'd like to throw another observation into the pot: I think many fans have >a problem judging personal space - that is, they tend to get much closer >while speaking to another person than is the norm. It seems the classic story about this is the way that British diplomats in the Middle East watch American diplomats backing away from the Arabs at Embassy parties - there are differing standards of personal space in different cultures. So if fans do get closer than the American standard, is it 'a problem judging personal space' or just a different culture? And is the American standard uniform anyway? David G. Bell ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1996 22:18:07 GMT From: janiceg@Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture Well, it is in the United States or it wouldn't be the standard :-> Whether fans get closer than the norm in other countries is a question I can't answer and I probably should have been more specific in my observation: "American fans tend to get much closer while speaking to another person than is the American norm." Better now? Janice Gelb janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:40:16 -0600 From: romm@winternet.com (David E Romm) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: [FANHIST] Changes in Fannish Culture whitroth@gagme.wwa.com (Mark) wrote: >Oh, and while I'm at it, the dividing line between subculture and culture >is when > 50% of the new members of the culture are folks who have been >brought up within the culture (i.e., kids), rather than converts. This subject came up in, of all places, the Minicon Post-Mortem during a conversation on Child Care vaguelly related to the thread from this newsgroup. One of the parents was saying that her kid grew up in conventions without Child Care. Fandom is generally open and accepting (within the ranges mentioned in another post) and age is not one of the critical factors. (Of course, the kids disagree...) For the most part, any kid who's old enough (read, 'mature enough') to hang out at cons without parental supervision is likely to absorb the culture and do very well. Children who need adult supervision are another matter, as are adults who need adult supervision and adults who need children's supervision. Still, the trick to Child Care is not to separate the kids from the con more than necessary. I think Minicon is doing a pretty admirable job with Programming especially for children, such as musicians doing concerts (e.g. Reed Waller). Kudos to Hilary Posner, Head of Children's Programming! ------------------------------ Copyright 1996 SF-Lovers. Individual messages copyrighted by their author and are solely the opinion of that person and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of any other person or organization. For administrative matters (subscribe, unsubscribe, etc.), send mail to: sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu Back issues of SF-Lovers Digest are available via anonymous ftp on sflovers.rutgers.edu in the directory pub/sfl. This directory also has episode guides and other sf-related material. All files are available via interactive ftp, via WWW/Web (URL: http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/) and through a mail server at: sf-lovers-ftp@sflovers.rutgers.edu Send the word "help" to sf-lovers-ftp@sflovers.rutgers.edu in a message by itself for information on how to use the mail server. To get a list of what's available use the command "get 00Index". Commands should always go into the body of the message since the "Subject:" line is ignored. Problems or questions about the ftp mail server should be sent to the administrative address noted above. End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************
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May 21, 2021 01:24
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Is it finally over?
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May 21, 2021 01:51
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quantumfoam posted:I think Minicon is doing a pretty admirable job with Programming especially for children, such as musicians doing concerts (e.g. Reed Waller). I assume this is the same Reed Waller who drew the furry porn comic Omaha the Cat Dancer. (I hasten to add that I am in no way implying that Waller is unsafe around kids; I have never heard a bad thing about him. I'm just amused by the juxtaposition.)
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May 21, 2021 06:34
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That was quite a snapshot. These days it feels as if fandom has split and polarised groups far more than it brings them together. You don't have to get more than mildly interested in something before becoming aware of a small herd of belligerent people trundling around in the distance, proclaiming various others are "doing it wrong" Or perhaps I've just been unlucky. Maybe my pheromones summon self-appointed keepers of whichever particular flame is currently piquing my interest.
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May 21, 2021 07:35
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Nah all these so called communities at the end of the day are defined by excluding others from the community and going on furious social media morality campaigns against them.
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May 21, 2021 07:43
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the extremely common "fannish accent" of poorly modulated, slightly quacking speech
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May 21, 2021 07:47
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Finally had time to start reading the Murderbot novellas and them being short is great when I'm still dealing with a baby who likes to stay up until I have barely enough focus to read. Not feeling The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet yet but going to push through to 100 pages before I give up on it as it should be exactly the kind of thing I love and most of my problems are just minor quibbles. Hope I'm not just being too picky now because usually I'm too forgiving and I like that better as I get to read more fun trash The Glumslinger posted:Oh and for the love of god, skip Port of Shadows. I am pretty sure Port of Shadows will make more sense when we get the other book as there has to be a bunch of time travel body possession shenanigans going on, but until then it reads more like alt universe fanfic
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May 21, 2021 07:48
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GRRM being extremely not-mad about SLIDERS the tv-series versus his DOORWAYS tv-series pilot. Gharlane of Eddore has been a long time "get off my SFF lawn/old SFF fen yeller at clouds" style personality/poster (with a 16 kg Wizards staff tricked out with modular LEDs/modular speakers/embedded MIDI synthesizer that wows slash annoys people at SFF conventions) in the SFL Archives. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 1996 23:53:52 GMT From: gharlane@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: "DOORWAYS," was Re: Sliders Rtk@gnn.com (Rae-Ann) writes: > I've seen a lot of mention of this "Doorways"; what is it? "DOORWAYS" was a TV series that George R. R. Martin created about half a decade back. There was a pilot film shot, and it's not bad. It's never been aired on TV in the U.S., although it did a few movie theaters in Europe, and has been on TV there, and is rentable on tape outside the U.S. Here are George R. R. Martin's comments on the subject of "SLIDERS" and "DOORWAYS." Mr. Martin has specifically given permission for this entry to be copied on other networks. SFRT II RoundTable Category 15, Topic 18 Message 244 Mon Apr 17, 1995 G.MARTIN15 [GRRM] at 22:11 EDT I had vowed not to discuss the DOORWAYS/SLIDERS situation any further, but a great deal of rumor and misinformation is getting passed around here, and the more things get repeated, the more distorted they become. GEnie and the Internet obviously function like the old game of "telephone" here, with people paraphrasing bits of news they've heard, and the facts malforming further with every repetition. So... sigh... let me set some facts straight. I have never been asked to write for SLIDERS. For obvious reasons... at least they are obvious to _me_. My reply, if asked, would likely be unprintable. Tracy Torme, the writer/creator of SLIDERS, was never involved in DOORWAYS, nor did he ask to write for the show... at least not directly. At the time when it appeared that DOORWAYS would be on the ABC Fall 1993 schedule, Torme's _agent_ approached me while I was visiting my own agent (we are both represented by ICM) and said that his client had read the script, loved the concept, and would be interesting in writing for the show if we went to series. A mutual friend (named Harlan Ellison) has subsequently told me that Torme says he has "never" read the DOORWAYS script and never expressed any interest in writing for it. I have no way of knowing, one way or the other. I have a great deal of respect for Harlan and if he says that Torme says this, I believe that Torme says this. It was not Torme who approached me: it was Torme's agent, speaking on behalf of Torme. I have been in the business long enough to know that agents sometimes, well... embroider if they smell a job. At any rate: I was never involved in any aspect of Torme's show and he was never involved in any aspect of mine. DOORWAYS was pitched to the Fox network on the same day it was pitched to ABC; at that time, the Fox execs told me they loved it, it was very original, they'd think about it. ABC bought it before they finished thinking. Almost two years later, when DOORWAYS was complete, we showed the pilot to Fox after ABC chose to go with LOIS & CLARK. Fox passed at that time. The six back-up scripts were also shown to Fox, but I have no idea whether they read them. DOORWAYS has been released in many foreign countries on video, but not in the US. Nor has ABC screened it. Someone above posted that they had scheduled it for ninety minutes but cancelled it when they realized it was two hours long. This is _almost_ correct, except for the lengths. ABC paid for and has the rights to telecast the ninety-minute version. They scheduled it for a _one hour_ slot, well over a year ago, and had to pull it. Ninety minute slots are very hard to program. A two-hour version of DOORWAYS does exist; that is the version released in Europe, Mexico, Australia and elsewhere on video. ABC does not have rights to that version, as they paid only for the ninety-minute and refused to up the ante when we ran over budget and Columbia asked them for more money. I hope that DOORWAYS will someday be seen, but I can't say how or when. The chances of it becoming a series are extremely remote. It pains me vastly to say that, since I believe DOORWAYS is as good as any work I have ever done, and had it aired, it would have bid fair to be one of the best SF series in the history of television. The writing was drat fair too. We had six back-up scripts ordered - a very high number, ABC was _very_ gung-ho about this show once - by some very fine writers, including Michael Cassutt, Edward Zuckerman, and Steve deJarnett, and our lead actors were sensational. George Newbern is a very fine and likeable young actor, as those who have seen in FATHER OF THE BRIDE and DESIGNING WOMEN and his many other roles can testify. And Anne LeGuernec was simply magic, a French actress utterly unlike anyone on television. If DOORWAYS have gone, I believe Anne would have become a major star. SLIDERS is utterly unlike DOORWAYS in its characters, stories, tone, and general intelligence level. SLIDERS is relentlessly dumb; DOORWAYS tried at least to be smart. DOORWAYS had humorous moments - I believe humor is essential in television but, we strove to be witty and quirky, and the main thrust of the show was drama and action/adventure. SLIDERS has a lot more humor and that humor is broader, louder, and, well, dumber. If we were trying for a touch of Woody Allen, they are trying Benny Hill. That's a very crude metaphor, but it gives you the idea. They are two very different shows, but the _concept_ is pretty much identical. Each week the lead characters travel to another alternate world. Unfortunately, in television, concept is all. If I did a show about a pair of FBI agents investigating paranormal activity, the characters and tone would likely be utterly different from X-FILES, but the series would still never get on the air, because the executives look only at the concept. In that sense, SLIDERS has effectively killed whatever small chances I have remaining to launch DOORWAYS... but those chances were one in a million anyway. I said that the concepts were "pretty much" identical. There _is_ a small difference. In DOORWAYS, the heroes were being pursued by a bad guy from Cat's original world. On SLIDERS, I guess they are just adventuring around, without the pursuit element. Alas, in the judgment of people I trust, the distinction is not sufficient to distinguish the two shows in the minds of executives. There is currently no lawsuit. At one point I strongly considered suing, and a number of lawyers felt I had a good case, but I was finally put off the thought of the time and money involved. Subsequently, I have been told that Torme was "thinking and talking" about SLIDERS well before I did DOORWAYS. If indeed he could produce sufficient witnesses to prove that, he would likely win in court... and it would be wrong of me to file. If he could not prove it, my lawyers say I would likely win. I am presently disinclined to gamble $50,000 to $100,00 on the result. I have met Tracy Torme only once in my life, at a panel we were both on at the Writer's Guild. I have no idea how truthful he is. We have one mutual friend who assures me that Torme is a "stand-up guy" who would never do anything unethical. We have another mutual friends who thinks, well, quite otherwise. Me, I don't know what to think. I will go back and check and see if I've corrected all the mistatements. If not, I'll add a few further remarks to get the facts straight. If so, however, let this be my last word on the subject. I know that people are curious, and I do appreciate all the support I've gotten from friends, but I feel like a recently bereaved mother whose friends keep saying, "So, could you tell us again how your baby died?" I will be glad to discuss DOORWAYS, but I am sick unto death of SLIDERS. I hope it goes away soon. GRRM [That's the end of GRRM's comments; this is me typing again.] I recently got to see a version of the "DOORWAYS" pilot film again. Then I went home and dug out my tape of the pilot movie for "SLIDERS," so I could compare them with both fresh in mind. The difference is huge; "DOORWAYS" had a couple of very interesting, sympathetic characters. They were well-written and well-acted. The movie was obviously done a *MUCH* smaller budget than the "SLIDERS" pilot, but it's something you want to see again, and you want to see more of the characters. Remember scripts like "MASQUES," that George R. R. Martin did for "BEAUTY AND THE BEAST?" Well, he'd gotten better. Even shooting a low-budget pilot movie, under great time pressue and stress, he'd gotten better... "DOORWAYS" is capable of competing, on an equal footing, with material shot on a budget vastly larger; and demonstrates what WOULD have been a wonderful series with great imagination and potential. Mr. Martin's comments are professional, and non-inflammatory; he does not seek to start a flame war or a huge discussion filled with non-productive bile and spite, because he knows that kind of negativity just doesn't get any MORE movies and TV shows written and into production. But having seen the two pilot movies, and looked at the dates on them; and having seen elements of many classic SF stories, prose and script, used in Mr. Torme's products in the past, I honestly feel that Mr. Martin has been ill-served by his so-called "peers" and competitors. GRRM has proven, time and time again, that he can *produce* decent material out of thin air, on a tight budget, with original concept and treatment. The work he did with Ron Koslow on "BEAUTY AND THE BEAST," his movie version of "NIGHTFLYERS" (made on considerably less than the cost of most major TV shows!), the work he did on the new "TWILIGHT ZONE..." GRRM's track record speaks for itself. I have respect for Tracy Torme's work, too; while invariably highly derivative, it *is* normally competent, and I'll always be pleased at the way he sneaked the "BlueGills" into Goddenberry's sweetness and light universe, and steamed G.R. off so badly that we never heard of BlueGills again... But working in the field, even working WELL in the field, doesn't give you a license to re-write other people's work, or to market their concepts, and from where I sit, it *appears* that's what he did... Parallel time tracks are old-hat in SF; travel between them is a hoarily ancient concept. But a TV series based on jumping to a new parallel world each week, now THAT's a fairly recent schtick, and if we're to believe Torme's agent, one that MARTIN came up with first... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 1996 00:17:38 GMT From: gharlane@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: "DOORWAYS," was Re: Sliders Just discovered I had some other G.R.R.M. comments on file, copied (with the author's permission) over from "GENIE." George R. R. Martin was queried on GENIE, and responded with the following, and permission to repost it here: SLIDERS: well, people will think what they want to think, but let me say a few things. A lawsuit is still an option, and will remain one for some time. I am not proceeding right now, but I could go ahead tomorrow, or next week, or six months from now, if I choose. I may do just that, depending on other factors. I am trying to purchase a large and rather expensive piece of land, as most of you know. You also know of the difficulties I've had there. Doing an expensive land purchase and an expensive lawsuit simultaneously would have stretched me pretty thin... but if the land purchase falls through, as it threatens to do, well... Of course, I would much prefer that SLIDERS die all by itself, and I think the chances of that are good. Whether or not you believe it is original, it is undeniably _awful_: badly written, badly acted, and aimed at the lowest common denominator. Parallel worlds for morons. If there is any vestige of taste remaining in the TV viewing audience, SLIDERS will be gone within six episodes. It makes SPACE RANGERS look like MASTERPIECE THEATER by comparison. The notion of alternate worlds is indeed common in books... but _not_ in television. Also, most alternate world stories involved a single parallel Earth. The only previous alternate world show in TV history, the short-lived OTHERWORLD (I _think_ that was the title) was of that nature. DOORWAYS was designed around a format that took the characters to a different alternate earth every week, a concept that was absolutely new for television. I had various expert witnesses lined up to testify to that, including network and studio executives, and even the SFRT's own Bill Warren, with his encyclopedic knowledge of SF television and film. SLIDERS has the same format, and its "creator" is a writer whose agent once approached me to inquire about a staff position on DOORWAYS if it went to series. The agent told me the writer had read my script and "loved" the idea. Indeed he did... So what you have is this. In the entire forty-year history of network television, there had been exactly _one_ previous parallel world show, and there had _never_ been a series pilot that proposed taking a set of characters to a different alternate world every week. DOORWAYS was the first. A year later comes a second, SLIDERS, with the same series format, created by a writer who read the DOORWAYS script and wanted to write for DOORWAYS. Perhaps this was purely a coincidence. I shall let the folks on Internet make up their own minds, but I know what _I_ think. (( OH, and for what it's worth, the Fox network was pitched DOORWAYS in the concept stage, and were quite interested, although ABC moved faster. They did _not_ tell me, "Oh, this is a common idea, we get variants pitched to us every week." They _did_ say, "Wow, this is something really different and unique, we don't have anything like this.")) ------------------------------
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May 21, 2021 07:58
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Young me really liked SLIDERS and the description of the plot of DOORWAYS on wikipedia sounds awful.  Also quote:GRRM has proven, time
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May 21, 2021 09:05
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Yeah these 1996 snapshot-in-time discussions I've reposted here sure have been something. Patrick Nielsen Hayden, 1990's TOR Books editor, has consistently been a edgelord dick ever since he started posting in the SFL Archives and is the primary reason I've grown extremely sour on TOR Books ever since I started this SFL Archives readthrough attempt. I hope to gently caress that dude is gone from the SFF industry but in my heart I know he's probably still attached to the SFF industry like a Lyme disease infested tick. There also is a 4 or so message discussion about whatever the 1990's rave slash 21+ yrs old adults only entertainment expo thinly disguised as a quarterly SFF Convention called MOC is that I'm on-the-fence about reposting to the internet in 2021. One club kid poster raved about the MOC parties/adults only extreme content at MOC, another poster was there for the SFF stuff at MOC and not the fake boobs/slave auctions/adults only content, and a third poster gave a vendors/merchant view of attending and selling stuff at MOC. quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 14:14 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 14:07
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quantumfoam posted:Patrick Nielsen Hayden, 1990's TOR Books editor, has consistently been a edgelord dick ever since he started posting in the SFL Archives and is the primary reason I've grown extremely sour on TOR Books ever since I started this SFL Archives readthrough attempt. I hope to gently caress that dude is gone from the SFF industry but in my heart I know he's probably still attached to the SFF industry like a Lyme disease infested tick. He seems to have mostly taken a back seat to his wife lately. Hard to get rid of an editor who's won three Hugos for the job, though.
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May 21, 2021 14:19
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