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MassRafTer posted:It really wasn't going fine. They completely wrecked his momentum after the Flair feud. But he was huge coming into WCW, his match with Flair was big business. But the turns and getting shoved into the midcard really, really hurt him. He went from a difference maker to a guy very quickly and listing off his title runs, especially "being a two time champ" really completely misses the point. Look at the two reigns! I'm not saying he was handled well in WCW, he was clearly not, but his career wasn't wrecked or anything like that. He was still a top guy before he was injured.
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May 27, 2021 19:48
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BodyMassageMachine posted:“Commissioner Bret”
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May 27, 2021 20:06
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Nick Jr. Face posted:I will forever remain pissed off about Owen's death because it never had to happen. I know he's saying this in hindsight, but I'm fairly certain Bret said he would have talked Owen out of doing the stunt.
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May 27, 2021 20:20
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Everything I've ever read about Bret makes me believe that he would've dropped the belt after Survivor Series, that he was being truthful about not wanting to drop it in Montreal. It was clear that the WWF couldn't have both Michaels and Hart, so in this scenario, HBK goes to WCW and joins the nWo. Montreal screwjob happens, but it's HBK who is in the Sharpshooter while Vince bellows "ring the loving bell." You get Mr McMahon, who goes all-in on the Hart Foundation, and maybe they all get some gold to carry around - Owen/Bulldog have the IC, Euro and Tag Titles, Anvil takes the Hardcore belt off of Mankind, and Bret is WWF champ. Austin still is the chosen one, who then takes on Bret at WMXIV in a re-match of the Submission match the year prior, with the story going full-circle - good guy Austin finally beats Hart. Bret stays at or around the main event scene, probably helps younger guys get over (probably with Test aligning with the Hart Foundation when he turns up). Owen never does that loving stunt, and Bulldog doesn't end up with a hosed up spine that gets him hooked on painkillers.
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May 27, 2021 20:21
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Red posted:I know he's saying this in hindsight, but I'm fairly certain Bret said he would have talked Owen out of doing the stunt.
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May 27, 2021 20:39
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Micheals going to WCW would be super interesting as him in the NWO with Nash/Hall would be big money and probably why Vince sided with Shawn over Brett But also you could easily see Hogan/Micheals just exploding in the locker room in WCW and Shawn with WCW drug/booze culture would also be...unwise
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May 27, 2021 20:39
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The long term fallout from the HBK to WCW alt-history would be huge. Does HHH take the Davey’s role and follow Shawn? Even if he stays, does he get the Steph angle if he’s on the losing side of the Kliq/Hart passing match?
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May 27, 2021 21:01
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Nick Jr. Face posted:Apparently Owen was hesitant to do it even till the day of, but did it anyway because he feared facing repercussions from Vince. He did one rehearsal and that was it, and had to specifically avoid doing it for several hours because the original idea is he’d have a “Mini Blazer” strapped to his front, which would have been Max Mini under a hood; because he absolutely did not want to have to be responsible for another human being in that situation, he hosed around Kansas City until he had to be at the building, at which point the Max Mini idea had been tossed due to not having enough time to rig both guys and rehearse it. When he showed up, they demanded he at least do a rehearsal; with Owen wearing regular street clothes, it went fine. But that’s when I believe Dunn and McMahon decided he was too slow getting out of the harness, and they wanted him to pratfall from like five feet off the mat, so they asked the rigger if he had a quick release. Rigger said sure. That, of course, turned out to be the boating gear that would snap open with like a pound of pressure. Y’know, the sort of pressure like a guy’s chest expanding as he rolls his shoulders back to readjust a cape he’s wearing. When you add in that Owen, supposedly, screamed “move” at Chioda as he tumbled down, that dude saved two other people’s lives the same day he died. One of which as he fell to his own doom, one of whom would have been falling with him if Owen wasn’t smart enough to avoid the Kempler Arena all day. He really was the best Hart brother.
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May 27, 2021 21:08
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This Owen talk is making me feel  Aside from his trilogy with Bret, what are Owen's best matches? People sometimes point to his WrestleMania match with Hunner but I just remember that being an average match on a terrible card. I liked him in his first tag title win with Yoko against The Smoking Gunns because even though he wasn't the major focus of the match, he scored the pin in a hilarious way and acted like he did it all himself. I remember being really into his match on Raw with HBK and being really annoyed that the match ended with that injury angle. Come to think of it, HBK and Owen had really good chemistry any time they wrestled.
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May 27, 2021 21:30
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Kosmo Gallion posted:This Owen talk is making me feel Owen/Davey in Germany in the European Title finals is always going to be one of my favorites. They had another match on RAW a bit later on which ended with the reformation of The Hart Foundation (loving perfect Bret on display here, hugging his family and shooting a disgusted look to the crowd at the same time) which is my emotional favorite, I guess, because it kicks off what was my favorite era of Bret of all time. But, the Germany match is technically better.
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May 27, 2021 22:07
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Kosmo Gallion posted:This Owen talk is making me feel Off the top of my head (and searching for a few dates) - His WrestleMania X match with Bret is probably his best match. - SummerSlam 1994 is good, despite the limitations of the cage. - KotR 1994 vs. 1-2-3 Kid is really, really good, even though it's super short. - I like IYH: Final Four, with Owen/Bulldog vs. Furnas/LaFon - vs. Shawn for the WM12 title shot at IYH6 - vs. Rocky Maivia on Raw (4-28-97), where Owen wins the belt - Bulldog/Owen beat Sid/Shawn on Raw (11/11/96) - Lion's Den match vs. Shamrock, SummerSlam 98 - Fully Loaded '98 has the Hart Dungeon match with Shamrock; it's a neat idea, but a bit short, and plays to Owen's strengths - That match with Austin at SummerSlam '97 He has a ton of matches with Bret through '94 and '96 that are all good, and every match he has against Davey Boy is good, too. He always worked well with Shawn, Austin, and, well, most everyone. The only 'meh' match I can think of off hand is the tournament final against Faarooq that Austin interfered in, but Faarooq/Simmons just wasn't a good wrestler, so.
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May 27, 2021 22:18
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Shawn's match with Owen prior to Wrestlemania in 1996 was pretty drat good, with the concussion storyline driving it. Liger and Owen also had an NJPW barnburner in 1991.
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May 27, 2021 22:26
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anakha posted:Shawn was actually cutting an anti-Hogan promo in Montreal, referenced Bret, and said he'd screw him again given the chance. Perfect timing for the music to hit. I think I conflated that moment with the time he actually brought out Bret to bury the hatchet, then half-teased a superkick just to gently caress with people.
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May 27, 2021 23:39
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The Cameo posted:He did one rehearsal and that was it, and had to specifically avoid doing it for several hours because the original idea is he’d have a “Mini Blazer” strapped to his front, which would have been Max Mini under a hood; because he absolutely did not want to have to be responsible for another human being in that situation, he hosed around Kansas City until he had to be at the building, at which point the Max Mini idea had been tossed due to not having enough time to rig both guys and rehearse it. When he showed up, they demanded he at least do a rehearsal; with Owen wearing regular street clothes, it went fine. But that’s when I believe Dunn and McMahon decided he was too slow getting out of the harness, and they wanted him to pratfall from like five feet off the mat, so they asked the rigger if he had a quick release. Rigger said sure. * The quick release had been decided on in advance. The pratfall was a byproduct of the quick release, not the other way around. (I'm guessing you may have been thinking of how Martha said on Dark Side that she thinks they actually used the more secure locking carabiner for the rehearsal since it seems weird that, according to witnesses, he forgot to release himself during the rehearsal and was walking around tethered to the rafters. I get where she's coming from, since why would he forget to pull the release cord that the rigger fashioned for the snap shackle? It feels like it makes more sense that he'd forget to reach up and twist off the carabiner than it would if he forgot to pull the cord on his shoulder.) * Jim Korderas is the referee who Owen almost landed on. I've absolutely wondered how differently things would have gone in the aftermath if Mini (whose survivors' guilt and PTSD was apparently a factor in his alcoholism) and/or Korderas were also killed in the accident. WWE is teflon, but how teflon would they be if their negligence killed THREE performers in a single accident?
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May 27, 2021 23:54
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Owen vs Vader from Bad Blood 1997 is about ***1/2 and definitely worth checking out. Blue Blazer vs Mr. Perfect from WrestleMania 5 is also a fun sprint.
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May 28, 2021 00:00
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Harts and Steiners is a great tag match.
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May 28, 2021 00:44
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Micheals going to WCW would be super interesting as him in the NWO with Nash/Hall would be big money and probably why Vince sided with Shawn over Brett Yeah, HBK and the Outsiders in the nWo could have been big money, but there's no telling how sustainable it would have been. WCW was also busily putting in place various reasons why people would turn away from the promotion within a few months of their most successful PPV. In all likelihood, WCW would absolutely have squandered HBK, like they squandered everything else.
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May 28, 2021 09:59
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HBK would have been dead in six months if he'd gone to WCW and began drinking and popping pills unchecked with Scott Hall. Also there'd be no Vince McMahon to emotionally abuse and manipulate to get what he wanted all the time, so he would have fallen prey to a bigger fish (Hogan).
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May 28, 2021 11:18
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Kosmo Gallion posted:HBK would have been dead in six months if he'd gone to WCW and began drinking and popping pills unchecked with Scott Hall. Also there'd be no Vince McMahon to emotionally abuse and manipulate to get what he wanted all the time, so he would have fallen prey to a bigger fish (Hogan). Given how Nash and Hall fell off the Hogan friend train, the resulting power bloc of a hypothetical HBK/Nash/Hall would have made things even more of a train wreck behind the scenes.
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May 28, 2021 12:36
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Dawgstar posted:Given how Nash and Hall fell off the Hogan friend train, the resulting power bloc of a hypothetical HBK/Nash/Hall would have made things even more of a train wreck behind the scenes. I wonder if we’d have gotten Goldberg and main event DDP in that scenario.
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May 28, 2021 20:42
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Vagabundo posted:I wonder if we’d have gotten Goldberg and main event DDP in that scenario. I feel like I've read DDP was elevated for a lot of reasons (hard work, well liked, friends with Bischoff, safe/easy to work with), but he was also more than happy to work with and put over Goldberg. I feel like I've also read that he liked to plan/map out his matches in detail. Usually, that might irritate some people, but then, with all the backstage poo poo in WCW, it was probably a relief to know exactly what you were getting in a match for once. Edit: I swore, back then, there was always a weekly story about someone bitching about having to job to Goldberg, or just refusing outright. I think I remember Brian Adams getting a main event of a show because he was the biggest name they could find that night willing to job. (Edit2: Yep, 27July title shot on Nitro) Red fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 20:56
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Red posted:I feel like I've read DDP was elevated for a lot of reasons (hard work, well liked, friends with Bischoff, safe/easy to work with), but he was also more than happy to work with and put over Goldberg. Mapping out a match with Goldberg seems like a pretty good idea, too.
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May 28, 2021 21:10
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Vagabundo posted:Yeah, HBK and the Outsiders in the nWo could have been big money, but there's no telling how sustainable it would have been. WCW was also busily putting in place various reasons why people would turn away from the promotion within a few months of their most successful PPV. Is an eventual WCW Hogan/HBK match as bouncy as their SummerSlam one?
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May 28, 2021 21:54
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Silly Burrito posted:Is an eventual WCW Hogan/HBK match as bouncy as their SummerSlam one? Late 90s Shawn was probably too drugged up to be that subtle.
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May 28, 2021 22:11
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Silly Burrito posted:Is an eventual WCW Hogan/HBK match as bouncy as their SummerSlam one? Hogan is/was a thin-skinned egomaniac shithead, so I wonder if he'd have even deigned to work with Shawn in any meaningful capacity. It would have been an extremely entertaining match, but for different reasons than the 2005 one. But, for a multitude of factors, many of which are "WCW was a loving nightmare hellscape political landmine of politics and incompetence" and "HBK was a drugged-up mess," I'd imagine HBK in WCW would have ended up being a bust.
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May 28, 2021 22:49
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Vagabundo posted:But, for a multitude of factors, many of which are "WCW was a loving nightmare hellscape political landmine of politics and incompetence" and "HBK was a drugged-up mess," I'd imagine HBK in WCW would have ended up being a bust. That's the fun part of this fantasy booking. Just how many ways could Michaels in WCW have gone horribly wrong? We haven't even considered the more mundane, yet equally plausible, Michaels exacerbates his back injury on something stupid like a trap door or on ungimmicked prop in a junkyard match. It also popped into my head that if Michaels appeared in 1996-97, he'd have an equal chance of being buried by Roddy Piper.
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May 28, 2021 23:08
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HBK going to WCW and Bret staying in the WWF would’ve just meant WWF winning the war way sooner than they did.
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May 28, 2021 23:21
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Austin gets the belt at WrestleMania 14 no matter what.
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May 28, 2021 23:40
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RC and Moon Pie posted:That's the fun part of this fantasy booking. Just how many ways could Michaels in WCW have gone horribly wrong? Oh absolutely, everyone can come up with a wild and stupid way that WCW would have squandered HBK, and they'd all be equally valid and possible.
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May 29, 2021 00:21
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Vagabundo posted:Oh absolutely, everyone can come up with a wild and stupid way that WCW would have squandered HBK, and they'd all be equally valid and possible. 1. Let's say Shawn, after the dressing room hair pull fight, goes to Vince, and says, "It's him or me. You fire him, or I quit." Vince sides with Bret, and Shawn quits. This is in Hartford CT, on June 9, 1997, for Monday Night Raw. 2. The next week Nitro's main event saw Lex Luger and The Giant beat Hogan and Rodman by DQ (Chicago, IL). In reality, there's no actual match - the nWo destroys the Giant, and the fans respond by throwing trash. In our alternate history, we'll say that as the nWo is about to clobber The Giant, Shawn Michaels appears, and looks to have Giant's back; but, naturally, Shawn superkicks him to join the nWo. 3. The following week originally had DDP take on Scott Hall; Shawn helps Hall beat Page, and Nash comes in to help. 4. As time goes on, Hogan tends to side mostly with celebrities (Rodman), suck-ups (Vincent, Bischoff), or old cronies (The Disciple). Hall and Nash, however, have Shawn, and the nWo slowly begins to divide as WCW stars apologize to Sting, and rally behind him to start beating the nWo. Shawn, Hall, and Nash declare the nWo "Kliq" has always been the strong part of the nWo, while Hogan's "Hollywood" side insist Hogan's always been the true power; this rivalry goes on and on until Sting finally gets his title match in a triple threat with Hogan and Shawn. In the big match, Sting looks to have the belt won as he runs wild on both men, until - Shawn/Hogan reveal they were in cahoots all along, with their pocketed ref, and destroy Sting. Hogan pins Sting with his pinky, and does nothing for the next few months while Shawn and Sting have a series of matches. Sting eventually wins the feud, and Shawn is fired a few months later. 5. Shawn and Hogan never get along backstage, and Shawn's drug problems eventually get him fired, and he likely fucks himself up in a car crash. WCW still dies, and the WCW/WWF/ECW InVasion still sucks. 6. In the WWF/E, Austin still becomes a star, and Bret is his on-ramp. However, Vince slowly becomes the big villain, and cycles through a series of corporate champions before revealing his pick for Austin's replacement - The Rock. Rock wins the title in a tournament final where the special ref Shane turns on Bret, making the Hitman a hero again. He and Austin patch things up as they fight McMahon's cronies for the next year. Bulldog lives, because he doesn't gently caress up his back on Warrior's trap door and get hooked on poo poo. Owen lives, though he never works with Austin; he does retire to become a schoolteacher. Bret probably wrestles longer than he should, but still continues to turn in good matches; he eventually quits when he's had enough of HHH's politics, since Owen is gone, Rock is making movies, and the direction of the company is still moving away from what he's comfortable with, what with HHH having sex with a fake corpse on TV.
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May 29, 2021 04:10
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Vagabundo posted:Oh absolutely, everyone can come up with a wild and stupid way that WCW would have squandered HBK, and they'd all be equally valid and possible. Within six months of his signing we get Shawn Michaels, Cruiserweight Champion.
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May 29, 2021 05:25
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Claytor posted:Within six months of his signing we get Shawn Michaels, Cruiserweight Champion. Oh man, I wish we got HBK vs Juventud around 1999 or 2000, but both borked on drugs on Nitro. pseudodragon posted:The long term fallout from the HBK to WCW alt-history would be huge. Does HHH take the Davey’s role and follow Shawn? Even if he stays, does he get the Steph angle if he’s on the losing side of the Kliq/Hart passing match? I imagine HHH would have followed HHH out the door. That does raise questions about where Chyna ends up. Does she go too, or does she stick around and get paired with someone else? There was a mention of nWo Kliq, so I can see that replacing the nWo Wolfpac in this scenario - HBK, Nash, Hall, HHH and Waltman sauntering down to the ring with the nWo theme with some lovely soundbite on loop. On the other side, nWo Hogans - Hogan, Giant (Andre Jr), Randy Savage (Megapower that isn't Hogan), Konnan (Mexi-Hogan) Disciple (Megamaniac that isn't Hogan) and Luger (Diet Cola Hogan). Imagine having to manage that collection of fragile egos. What a loving headache. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 05:44 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 05:30
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Vagabundo posted:Oh man, I wish we got HBK vs Juventud around 1999 or 2000, but both borked on drugs on Nitro. Xanax on a Pole Match
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May 29, 2021 05:36
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Vagabundo posted:I imagine HHH would have followed HHH out the door. I can't imagine this happening, but I'll defer to your expertise
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May 29, 2021 06:17
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SG Bamboo posted:I can't imagine this happening, but I'll defer to your expertise his nose made the departure first, it just took a while for his quads to catch up
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May 29, 2021 06:26
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SG Bamboo posted:I can't imagine this happening, but I'll defer to your expertise Yeah, I totally meant this, and definitely not HBK. titties posted:his nose made the departure first, it just took a while for his quads to catch up
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May 29, 2021 06:54
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What if Shawn hadn't been forced into retirement the first time? Does his politicking prevent things from playing out the way they did with key wrestlers? His drug use and increasingly erratic behavior could've thrown a wrench into a lot of things. Vince got rid of him when he was in a non wrestling role, would he have been willing to pull the trigger if he was still working matches?
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May 29, 2021 12:30
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Zombie Lemur posted:Vince got rid of him when he was in a non wrestling role, would he have been willing to pull the trigger if he was still working matches? If Vince were a farmer, every plow horse would've died in the field, if that helps.
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May 29, 2021 14:57
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I don't think there was any stopping Stone Cold winning the title and reversing WWF's fortunes. If Michaels was around he probably would have filled in as Austin's opponent for some 98 B- PPVs (Unforgiven, Over The Edge) and probably would have left anyway. Vince didn't "need" him anymore; there were four or five acts that would have been more over than Michaels at that point.
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May 29, 2021 15:11
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Kosmo Gallion posted:I don't think there was any stopping Stone Cold winning the title and reversing WWF's fortunes. If Michaels was around he probably would have filled in as Austin's opponent for some 98 B- PPVs (Unforgiven, Over The Edge) and probably would have left anyway. Vince didn't "need" him anymore; there were four or five acts that would have been more over than Michaels at that point. Yeah. Shawn was proof that you have to go away for people to miss you.
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May 29, 2021 15:18
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