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Really a fun non-cop way to do it would be to just have Momo bribe villains she runs into so they stop fighting. Just make em a gold bar and tell them to stop knocking over the 7-11. Everybody gets one.
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Jun 9, 2021 19:56
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Well, then Momo will end up crashing the global economy due to hyperinflation Which, on second thought, sounds totally fine, good work Momo
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Jun 9, 2021 20:02
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Happy to see the manga is not only circling back to the whole assassination thing but also being pretty critical of it. Nothing in the Nagant flashbacks is ambiguous at all, her wetwork was utterly unjustifiable. I might have not gotten any satisfaction directly in the aftermath of Twice's assassination but I'll take whatever I can get. Still, I expect that if Hawks grows when/if they fridge Nagant there won't be any "maybe I didn't have to kill Twice" beat, just a generic "killing people makes them dead, which is bad" take. Also while I dearly hope for a deeper more satisfying end I can't help but expect that the only way a Shonen manga unravels the complicated societal mess as presented here is just a bit of talk-no-jutsu, lead-by-example and lastly "if we change the leadership the system/organization becomes good". Which, I mean, lol... I know I sound hyper-critical here but I'm really digging this bit of the story with Nagant and if anyone working in Shonen right now can pull off a good landing it has to be Horikoshi.
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Jun 10, 2021 12:22
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I'm actually pretty lukewarm on Nagant and her backstory, but I'm also lukewarm on Hawks's, too. The entire "mysterious shadowy commission backing hero society that does Bad Ruthless Things that are Necessary" feels like an obvious and tiresome later-stage retrofit to the setting to provide a concrete bad part of hero society to serve as a something for everyone to point fingers at. It also feels weirdly incompatible with the entire story of All Might - did he drag society out of the darkness alone? Was he secretly supported by the Hero CIA covertly assassinating villains? How did this organization somehow spring from the ground and decide to start press ganging children into being assassins while All Might was still in his prime? Both Hawks and Nagant would be way better characters if they had decided to do their shady stuff on their own initiative because they (wrongly) viewed it as necessary to preserve society, rather than because they were forced to do it by a boring faceless commission that has had no story impact or presence before these two characters were introduced.
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Jun 10, 2021 14:12
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The commission actually shows up before Hawks is ever introduced I believe- I want to say right after All Might retires.
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Jun 10, 2021 14:35
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Fabricated posted:The commission actually shows up before Hawks is ever introduced I believe- I want to say right after All Might retires. Yeah, but they were introduced as a bunch of politicians trying to figure out what the hell to do now that All Might is gone as worldbuilding to show how his retirement was throwing a wrench into things, not a shadowy cabal hand picking and raising child assassins to murder undesirables.
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Jun 10, 2021 15:00
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A bunch of Hard Men eager to make some Hard Choices to wank off about congealing into some lovely outfit inside a government that is probably working really really hard to save face after years of ineffectual struggle against AFO's shadow regime does not sound unlikely to me. I would actually be way more surprised something like them didn't exist.
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Jun 10, 2021 15:23
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I still want to see some concrete ideas from anyone besides "we need to hero even harder" when it comes to fixing hero society, but this IS a shonen series
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Jun 10, 2021 15:28
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The child soldiers of so many shonen never seem to stop even after Good Endings
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Jun 10, 2021 16:36
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Half of Dracula posted:The child soldiers of so many shonen never seem to stop even after Good Endings Remember in Naruto when the main character railed against the historic death, abuse and trauma of multiple generations of child soldiers by unifying all the warring nations under one banner and brought about world peace? And then like ten years later he's still letting the village he's the president of teach nine year olds how to murder for the sake of the Leaf and the Fire country.
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Jun 10, 2021 16:53
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I haven't had to stretch my suspension of disbelief at all with regard to the Hero CIA ordering extrajudicial killings or recruiting/grooming child soldiers to do their bidding. It's another off-shoot of one of the main themes of the story, which is basically how All Might's reign as the symbol of peace created its own problems, in this case because it wasn't a permanent solution. Clearly the shadowy Hero CIA cabal would know All Might is mortal and would have to retire someday, they've obviously been planning for it for decades now if they're grooming children into adult killers. Every generation has stronger quirks, so hero society is an arms race and All Might was just a huge temporary advantage for the heroes. It's absolutely believable that you'd have a bunch of people pulling strings to make "tough choices" to maintain the society they were gifted by All Might's exceptional existence. Hell, some of them probably viewed it as doing their part even while All Might was active, since he couldn't be everywhere at once. All Might is/was consistently shown to be exceptional because he could just show up to something on reaction and handle it with minimal issues or casualties. Normal heroes can't do that, most of them are just glorified patrol cops. It's not hard to come to the conclusion that certain people/quirks are too dangerous and need to be dealt with. That's obviously wrong, there's no justice in it, and the story wants you to acknowledge it as such.
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Jun 10, 2021 17:07
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Also, part of All Might's effectiveness was how squeaky clean he was. The man is incorruptible and a force of nature, and your society is balanced on that. I imagine they had an idea that All Might wasn't someone to dirty his hands, but they also probably were distinctly interested in making sure he never HAD to.
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Jun 10, 2021 17:13
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Rohan Kishibe posted:Remember in Naruto when the main character railed against the historic death, abuse and trauma of multiple generations of child soldiers by unifying all the warring nations under one banner and brought about world peace? And then like ten years later he's still letting the village he's the president of teach nine year olds how to murder for the sake of the Leaf and the Fire country. They shoulda let Sasuke kill all the governments like he wanted to. Now its off to crazy uncle Orochimaru's lair, some of the war criminals are meeting for lunch
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Jun 10, 2021 18:19
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Shere posted:I haven't had to stretch my suspension of disbelief at all with regard to the Hero CIA ordering extrajudicial killings or recruiting/grooming child soldiers to do their bidding. It's another off-shoot of one of the main themes of the story, which is basically how All Might's reign as the symbol of peace created its own problems, in this case because it wasn't a permanent solution. Clearly the shadowy Hero CIA cabal would know All Might is mortal and would have to retire someday, they've obviously been planning for it for decades now if they're grooming children into adult killers. Every generation has stronger quirks, so hero society is an arms race and All Might was just a huge temporary advantage for the heroes. It's absolutely believable that you'd have a bunch of people pulling strings to make "tough choices" to maintain the society they were gifted by All Might's exceptional existence. Hell, some of them probably viewed it as doing their part even while All Might was active, since he couldn't be everywhere at once. The "shadowy hero CIA was grooming child soldiers to become state-sponsored assassins because they knew that All Might would need to retire some day and were laying groundwork to ensure future stability" idea doesn't really jibe with the commission we see a glimpse of after All Might's retirement being in utter panic and not having a clue how to respond to the situation.
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Jun 10, 2021 18:24
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I just chalk that up to them not anticipating that he would almost lose a fight and instantly retire afterwards. The fashion in which he went out was almost a worst case scenario because not only did he retire, he also showed the world that he's really this decrepit skeleton man. The day before his fight against All For One, All Might was still the strongest hero on the planet and the symbol of peace. There wasn't an exit plan, everything just kind of went to poo poo right away. And of course right after that, almost immediately so, they start moving Hawks to take out the biggest threats to society. It all tracks to me. They were probably counting on him continuing as he was for a bit, given that prior to that point he had been doing everything he could to mask his struggles. He hadn't even told anyone he was limited on how long he could work at that point, really. Certainly not anyone in the hero commission. Solanumai fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jun 10, 2021 |
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Jun 10, 2021 18:39
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Kanos posted:The "shadowy hero CIA was grooming child soldiers to become state-sponsored assassins because they knew that All Might would need to retire some day and were laying groundwork to ensure future stability" idea doesn't really jibe with the commission we see a glimpse of after All Might's retirement being in utter panic and not having a clue how to respond to the situation. The thing is the Hero Commission as a whole likely aren’t all in on the assassination stuff, just the small cabal who decided it was worthwhile. The Hero Commission as a whole seems to be the government branch who manage the hero licenses and all other such things, the political/organisational side of heroism. Inside that the leadership seem to have created a shadow system to keep the entire system functional and at the same standard that All Might first created, no matter how dirty they have to work to do so. Also I don’t think they were doing it in the fear of All Might retiring, as they were doing it with Lady Nagant long before that, they were doing it because they thought it necessary or valuable. They were corrupt and were wielding power to maintain the society they want, acting in secret to kill undesirables who would look bad for the heroes as a whole. All Might retiring scares them because their system is in fact based on him existing in the spotlight so they can work in the shadows he casts.
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Jun 10, 2021 18:44
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I don't really think anyone had a plan for All Might retiring. Obviously, people knew he wouldn't live forever, but he'd become such a fact of society that I think they couldn't internalize that knowledge.
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Jun 10, 2021 18:51
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Rohan Kishibe posted:Remember in Naruto when the main character railed against the historic death, abuse and trauma of multiple generations of child soldiers by unifying all the warring nations under one banner and brought about world peace? And then like ten years later he's still letting the village he's the president of teach nine year olds how to murder for the sake of the Leaf and the Fire country. Boruto's era doesn't have the major nations at each other's throats, but there's still bandits, cultists, minor villages that are struggling because the greater nations don't realize they exist, and Totally Not The Akatsuki Pay No Attention To The Spooky Black Cloaks And Their Pet Ten-Tails running around stirring up trouble But god forbid the major nations' powerhouses get off their asses to actually do anything about it and instead leave it to the next generation because the script said so
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Jun 10, 2021 19:01
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Kanos posted:I'm actually pretty lukewarm on Nagant and her backstory, but I'm also lukewarm on Hawks's, too. There probably would be some kind of role for some kind of 'Quirk Freakout Control Squad' but naturally they went for shadowy assassins instead of people like Midnight and Shinsou. You also have a relatively recently introduced element on the board, in that it is now possible to take someone's Quirk away, and it is also possible to duplicate it through science, or even replace it with a different one, although you do get into ethical questions if you start making that an aspect of health care rather than 'your Always-on Bone Melting (120 meter radius) Quirk is ruining your life'
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Jun 10, 2021 19:35
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Way I saw it, the whole point of the wetwork was about keeping people's trust in heroes as an organization, because they were terrified of the consequences of losing such trust. It's well known that police only work as long as people are willing to comply, and this is magnified in a society where powers exist. And let's face it, they weren't wrong. We're literally seeing what happens when people decided that heroes weren't enough. Vigilantism can be extremely dangerous specifically because people never learned the things that get taught at hero school. Is it moral? No. Is it necessary? Perhaps not. Is it a reasonable line of thought? Probably not. Is it a plausible line of though? Yes, definitely. Painting them as cartoonishly evil or corrupt is simplistic.
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Jun 10, 2021 19:38
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Extrajudicial murder before a crime has even been committed IS cartoonishly evil, tho. It's "What if the Minority Report guys just summarily executed people the pre-cogs said would do future-crime."-tier.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:09
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KazigluBey posted:Extrajudicial murder before a crime has even been committed IS cartoonishly evil, tho. It's "What if the Minority Report guys just summarily executed people the pre-cogs said would do future-crime."-tier. Sure, but it's not that out of line with how governments work now. If someone is planning a terrorist attack and they're found out before they can execute that plan, you can bet nobody involved is going to wait for them to actually do the crime before arresting them. I don't think Nagant was out there killing bank robbers or car jackers - the government was sending her after people they considered threats to the foundations of hero society. The Hero Commission decided these were threats worth acting upon and the question we don't have an answer to - the question that Nagant doesn't have an answer to and which drove her mad - was that we simply don't know if they were right or not. They're absolutely still the bad guys because even if every threat they ever sent Nagant or Hawks on a mission to stop was genuine, they're still extrajudicial killings with no one checking their behavior. But I wouldn't call it 'cartoonishly evil' because frankly it's all too realistic.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:21
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KazigluBey posted:Extrajudicial murder before a crime has even been committed IS cartoonishly evil, tho. It's "What if the Minority Report guys just summarily executed people the pre-cogs said would do future-crime."-tier. You should check out Psycho-Pass if you haven't seen it yet.
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Jun 11, 2021 01:43
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CuwiKhons posted:Sure, but it's not that out of line with how governments work now. If someone is planning a terrorist attack and they're found out before they can execute that plan, you can bet nobody involved is going to wait for them to actually do the crime before arresting them. I don't think Nagant was out there killing bank robbers or car jackers - the government was sending her after people they considered threats to the foundations of hero society. The Hero Commission decided these were threats worth acting upon and the question we don't have an answer to - the question that Nagant doesn't have an answer to and which drove her mad - was that we simply don't know if they were right or not. Her last job, as seen in flash back, was to kill two "heroes" who were framing civies as villains and then arresting them to reap rewards. There is no way to frame this as a justifiable extrajudicial execution. It's cartoonishly evil to argue that their deaths would be justified in some way because otherwise people would see that and instantly go "gently caress the system", as opposed to just arresting them, publicly trying them and proving the heroes aren't above the law. I will grant, to some degree, that the people I argued with itt about Twice getting murdered didn't have a totally invalid position. I don't see any way the same could be said here. This is like trying to say that a belief in Broken Window Theory justifying cops executing graffiti artists isn't, somehow, cartoonishly, outlandishly evil. e.: like, if the bar we're shown in the flash-back is THAT low, it is absurdly easy to imagine any number of other scenarios where people got killed for things that should have just resulted in low-to-mid length jail sentences. Way back the bar was "this villain has an (arguably) insane power and if he makes it to the field the heroes auto-lose". I didn't fully agree, but I could see the argument. Now it's like "well there's a blogger that got access to the Number 3 hero's private emails and discovered he's having an affair on the side, he's being blackmailed, can't let his image and the good name of our hero society fall into disrepute, kill the blogger" KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jun 11, 2021 |
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Jun 11, 2021 01:59
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I can completely understand where they were coming from with that incident though? They're definitely not right, but their position is obvious. They don't arrest those heroes because it would inevitably turn into a media circus, a potentially drawn out trial, and possibly people questioning the validity of other heroes. The benefits are, as you said, demonstrating to the public that heroes are not above the law. But the Hero Commission doesn't have a vested interest in convincing the public of that. The Commission does have a vested interest in convincing the public that the heroes don't need to be above the law, because they're paragons of virtue and unshakeable morality, just like All Might. Again, they're absolutely not morally right here. But their actions aren't illogical or stupid or pointlessly evil. They're a very calculated form of evil.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:11
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It's provably pointlessly evil, because a great deal of what MHA has shown, almost from the get-go, is that the dysfunctions and contradictions of the Hero Society end up creating a great deal of the villains they need to then deal with. This used to be vaguely sub-text and/or villain backstory that even readers itt could give or take how much they cared about, but now we have a covert government body murdering people with ridiculously low justifying causes and it's like, this is going to cause way, WAY more damage in the long run than anything they "might" have prevented. Because this is also based on a 24esque assumption that every plot they went after was real, every target was actually justified. The problem with "extrajudicial" is that for all the faults of the judicial system it is far, FAR more apt to make mistakes when there aren't checks and balances in place. Gee wiz, we keep killing people to prevent future villainy and damage to our society, and end up causing damage to our society and create future villainy. If only there was something we could do different... Nah, lets keep killing people. <--- Evil. idk if the word "cartoonishly" is causing some semantic split hairs, I can drop it if that's what's needed, but it's an absurd track to follow. People don't call the effects of the USA's drone program flippant words because the horror is real, but I bet you if we lived in world where that simply didn't exist but someone came up with it for a comic or manga there would be PLENTY of people calling it an outlandish, really out-there kind of evil. Case in point, we only get to see a little of it so far but beyond everything else I've said about Nagant the program she worked in ended up costing the director's life and god knows how much other damage before Nagant was brought in. The whole thing is so stupidly circular and self-defeating. I don't want to harp on this, but: CuwiKhons posted:I can completely understand where they were coming from with that incident though? Do you, really? There is no way that plan was worth it, between how unjustifiably it was weighing on the people having to undertake it (straw that broke Nagant's back, in fact) and how much better the alternative would be. I can maybe, MAYBE begrudgingly accept "these were terrorists plotting an attack" (and even then...), but "these were criminals who'd get idk 20 years tops, maybe less"? Yikes, it's cartoonishly absurd. Like, if anyone in-universe believed Hero Society was THAT fragile that these guys needed a bullet sans trial then lmao, their world-view is either insane or if they were right then it wouldn't take AFO, it'd just take proving Endeavor didn't file tax returns a couple of years in a row or something on that level. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jun 11, 2021 |
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Jun 11, 2021 02:27
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I think we're definitely arguing semantics because we both 100% agree that the Commission is evil and responsible for a huge number of existing societal problems, we're just debating realism here.KazigluBey posted:Do you, really? There is no way that plan was worth it, between how unjustifiably it was weighing on the people having to undertake it (straw that broke Nagant's back, in fact) and how much better the alternative would be. I can maybe, MAYBE begrudgingly accept "these were terrorists plotting an attack" (and even then...), but "there were criminals who'd get idk 20 years tops, maybe less"? Yikes, it's cartoonishly absurd. Again, I can understand their logic. It doesn't make them right. I can just see how an organization that is accustomed to just murdering people they see as threats could look at that situation and see "clearly murder is the answer." They'd been using a hammer for long enough that every problem started looking more and more like a nail.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:35
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OK yeah, I guess we do agree. I think the process that led them to almost feeling like a hero jaywalking is an apocalyptic event in need of a bullet can be somewhat realistic, even if the end-point to me really, REALLY isn't.
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Jun 11, 2021 02:39
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't that specific thing that drove Nagant to go no this is not okay. It seems more having children call her hero and want to be like her, whilst all she can see is the blood on her hands, that did her in. Executing the fake heroes who are arresting civilians on false charges to build popularity (which is in of itself a calculated and monstrous plan) is just the first mission right after she broke. Also, this situation is a lot more than a Hero Jaywalking, it's heroes actively abusing the civilian population for their own gain, in a way that hasn't been noticed by the public at large yet.
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Jun 11, 2021 03:07
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I disagree with people who are saying that this plotline seems superfluous. The immediately previous mini-arc involved civilians outright saying they didn't need heroes, didn't trust them, and wouldn't bother with them anymore. If the truth came out about what LN was doing there would've been people like that everywhere throughout Japan. I agree that what the Hero Commission has apparently been up to is over-the-top. I think there's a greater point that the story is building towards here, though, that ultimately you can't trust in any heroes to serve as an example -- you instead have to have everyone in society strive to live up to that ideal. This would tie together the Stain, Overhaul, Deku and Bakugo, etc etc plotlines all together. The true impact of All Might wasn't just that he was a near-deific hero saving everyone (even though Endeavor, apparently, solved more cases), it's that he inspired people to try to be like All Might. If everyone in Japan was like Deku and were trying to be like All Might, would the Hero Commission need to do their shady wetwork?
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Jun 11, 2021 04:23
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SKULL.GIF posted:I agree that what the Hero Commission has apparently been up to is over-the-top. I think there's a greater point that the story is building towards here, though, that ultimately you can't trust in any heroes to serve as an example -- you instead have to have everyone in society strive to live up to that ideal. This would tie together the Stain, Overhaul, Deku and Bakugo, etc etc plotlines all together. The true impact of All Might wasn't just that he was a near-deific hero saving everyone (even though Endeavor, apparently, solved more cases), it's that he inspired people to try to be like All Might. If everyone in Japan was like Deku and were trying to be like All Might, would the Hero Commission need to do their shady wetwork? This is an impossibly unrealistic ideal to try to have Joe On The Street aspire to, even in a fancy heroic shonen setting. "Just have literally everyone in society devote themselves to trying to emulate one of the most selfless people who has ever lived" seems like a pretty big ask, and it doesn't really solve the problems if some jerks decide that they don't want to play ball. (I'm not sure it's an entirely healthy solution, either. All Might's thing is that he's utterly selfless to the point of self-harm, and Deku's slavish attempts to emulate that are a continual point of contention in the story - he puts too much on his plate and he continually turns his entire skeletal structure into a bone chip smoothie. Self-care is just as important for a healthy life as selfless devotion to others.)
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Jun 11, 2021 05:36
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shut up nerds its chapter time https://w26.readheroacademia.com/manga/boku-no-hero-academia-chapter-316/
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Jun 11, 2021 09:25
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Jun 11, 2021 09:56
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I figured All For One wouldn't really tell Nagant where he was going to be. Deku has seen some poo poo man. If only he had some friends, preferably ones around his age, that he could turn to for support at a time like this.
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Jun 11, 2021 10:43
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Oh no, they're all dead. (Edit: Actually it looks like Deku may have been the only one to go inside. Oh, and Endeavour.) I really appreciated Deku giving Chisaki hell for wanting to apologise to his old boss but still feeling no remorse towards Eri. But even if he redeemed himself, apologised and she restored his arms... there's no way All for One didn't take his quirk, right? Some great and intense masked-Deku faces in the latter half of this chapter. Goddamn. Loved the callback to "You're next!" too! jassa fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Jun 11, 2021 |
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Jun 11, 2021 10:59
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It's interesting to see Deku take point on a team including Edgeshot, Kamui Woods and Mt Lady. I guess it doesn't make much sense to keep his role a secret from the heroes anymore but still unexpected for me. I'm loving Deku being so much more confident and collected about everything. I really prefer it to his previous personality where he was either screaming or stuttering.
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Jun 11, 2021 11:50
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Someone needs to photoshop Franky into that explosion
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Jun 11, 2021 13:56
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 Mount Lady and Kamui Woods? They are/were in a relationship, so odds of one of them dying or getting severely injured are a fool's betGiven Hori's already killed off one sex appeal character, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Lady, but perhaps it'll be Woods dying to keep her safe Or perhaps they'll all survive just to spite AFO and show how far they've all come, but that feels a bit optimistic given the direction the tone's taken
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Jun 11, 2021 16:00
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So Lady Nagant ate it/went to a hospital?
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Jun 11, 2021 16:05
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Mount Lady will not die because if she does I’m quitting the series
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Jun 11, 2021 16:18
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