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Hot water heater question. Asked this in the fix it fast thread, but I think this is probably a more appropriate place? Our hot water heater seems to be inconsistent lately with temperature. A few months ago we dialed the thermostat down because it was coming out 125 sometimes, and we have 2 small kids so we figured turning it down was a good idea. Worked great for a while, mostly got 110 for full hot, which is more than enough for us. But in the last 2 weeks been kind of running cold. Sometimes the temp would be fine, but more often it's cold... a few days ago it was down to like 90, and last night it was at like 85. This would happen right away in the morning, but also mid-day or in the evening. Doesn't seem really predictable. Thought maybe there was sediment build up causing issues, so I flushed it today. Turned everything back on and set the thermostat back up to the factory default, and as of now it's running at like 110 or so. Has only been back on for a little bit so I'm not going to draw any other conclusions than it fired up. Couple things: Cold water in the summer tends to be like 75-80 at the taps, and down to like 50 in the winter IIRC. Checked the hot today after flushing/filling (but before turning the burner back on) and it was around 81. It's a 2012 unit, gas fuel, State Industries model GS6-50-YBDS. Thought it was a 2009, but just checked and it's actually from 2012. We bought the house in 2016, and this is the first time I've flushed it. Installation was by a licensed plumber according to documents the PO gave us. When draining, barely any water came out. It's a 50 gallon unit. Had the closest 2 hot taps open and they were flowing. Closed the cold water inlet and the hot taps stopped as expected. But when I opened the drain valve until it hit a stop and barely a trickle came out. Thought it was clogged, but I opened the cold water inlet to check and and it flowed freely. I dunno, I guess most of the water drained out the hot taps before I could open the drain valve? For some reason in my head I thought I'd get all 50 gallons coming out the drain. Similarly, when refilling, it took like 10-15 seconds for the hot taps to run smoothly after some initial sputtering. Opened the hot taps, closed the drain valve, and when I opened the cold water inlet the hot taps started sputtering right away. I don't know why, but I figured this would have taken longer? Thoughts? Is this mostly normal behavior? Mainly just writing everything down for reference. At this point I'm thinking the thermostat was either just too low, or it's starting to die. But the drain/fill part is still a little confusing.
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Jun 20, 2021 19:50
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Gas or electric? If it's electric, unscrew the drain valve out of the tank. It's probably full of sediment and the pieces are too big to fit through the valve. Stick something long and hard like a screwdriver in the hole to bust up the big pieces. You can also open the valve on top feeding the tank to help flush it out. Your problem could be that you just don't have much volume of hot water, so it's mixing with the cold. It could also be the thermostats like you suspect. Edit: yes, your faucets will sputter as air escapes the system. That's normal. The amount depends on how much air got in. 50 gallons of air in an entire water heater will take awhile to escape. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 20, 2021 |
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Jun 20, 2021 20:28
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Hello thread, I need some advice! I woke up on Saturday morning to find the compression fitting on my main water inlet stopcock had failed, and a very wet basement. After much bailing out and a trip to the dehumidifier rental shop, I've put the pipework back together. I'm kinda worried about why it would suddenly fail though, as I haven't touched it in about 5 years, and previous to this I'd seen no leaks or indication that it was going bad. Some details: - I'm in the UK - The joint that failed was a brass 22mm inline tap / stopcock. - The compression olive had been completely stripped from the pipe (I replaced the olive when I put the pipe back together). - The pipework coming in (where the joint failed) is a bit strange - 22mm ext diameter, and about 13mm internally. It's black plastic, labelled as "1/2", which I guess refers the the internal diameter. It doesn't seem to match any of the 'standard' sizes I see sold. - It *probably* dates back to the 1980's as that is when the house was converted into flats, but it's all been chopped about and changed within the last ~5 years or so by me as we changed up plumbing in the flat. - I've got pipe inserts for 22mm and 15mm joints, but neither of them fit (22mm is way too big and 15mm way too small). There are no inserts in the joint. The pipe itself is a lot thicker / more robust than normal 22mm pipe though. - After the tap there is a PRV to limit water pressure into the house, then it starts to elbow off into 'conventional' 22mm pipework, 15mm pipework etc. Is this just something that happens sometimes? Since putting it all back together again it has been fine. I've clipped it into the stone wall of the basement, as it was previously attached to the bottom of the floorboards above which I figure might have had enough bounce in them to slowly work the joint out to the point the mains pressure was too much. Edit: images The joint that failed  The pipe labels 
Gruffalo Soldier fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 18:51
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Which part of the compression fitting failed, the nut or the ferrule? Did it crack?
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Jun 21, 2021 19:00
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kid sinister posted:Which part of the compression fitting failed, the nut or the ferrule? Did it crack? Nothing cracked, the pipe on the 'out' side had literally pushed off out of it, leaving the olive inside the joint. The nut and thread are both fine. It's possible I just hosed it up when I put it together, but I wouldn't have thought that it would have taken so long to blow.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:05
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I'm hooking up a water softener that has 1" inlet/outlet ports to 1/2" pex. To do that, I'm going to a 1" to 1/2" galvanized reducer, to a 1/2 NPT to PEX brass fitting. Should I use teflon tape on all the threads or something else?
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Jun 21, 2021 21:42
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SkunkDuster posted:I'm hooking up a water softener that has 1" inlet/outlet ports to 1/2" pex. To do that, I'm going to a 1" to 1/2" galvanized reducer, to a 1/2 NPT to PEX brass fitting. What the hell are you doing using galvanized steel in your plumbing. Get a brass reducer fitting. When you do that I recommend pipe dope instead of Teflon. It works far better in my experience. The only reason to use Teflon is if you'll need to remove and reattach for maintenance in the future. E: and why is this bring tied into 1/2" pex? Where is this in your line? A water softener should be off your main supply line usually which is 1" or 3/4". That 1/2" line probably only goes to a single sink or shower. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 22:18
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SpartanIvy posted:What the hell are you doing using galvanized steel in your plumbing. Get a brass reducer fitting. I'd use brass if I could find it, but that galvanized fitting was the only thing I could find in two different hardware stores. Is there a reason that galvanized won't work? My water comes in from the street, through the meter, and into a single 1/2 copper line which feeds the whole house. I generally don't have more than one faucet/appliance flowing at a time, so it hasn't been a problem for me. edit: maybe in the future, I'll replace those galvanized fitting with brass and plumb in some 3/4" from the main line, but my main concern right now is using what I have to install this water softener and all I want to know is what to use on the threads pictured above. Skunkduster fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 22:28
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Teflon Tape and pipe dope will both work satisfactorily. I learned from somewhere here in HCH that there are different types of teflon tape for different uses. I suppose it would be best to make sure you get the right teflon tape of you go that route. In my experience the white Tape is the "plumbing tape". Someone who knows better might chime in and be all like "doesn't matter what tape you get so don't worry about it". Like the one goon mentioned though, pipe dope works better.
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Jun 22, 2021 00:29
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SkunkDuster posted:I'd use brass if I could find it, but that galvanized fitting was the only thing I could find in two different hardware stores. Is there a reason that galvanized won't work? There's no issue with galvanized steel in the short term, but long term it corrodes inwards and will reduce your water flow and generally give you a bad water experience. My house still had some galvanized pipe from the 50's when I bought it and after replacing it and seeing what was inside the pipes, I'm real glad I did. If you want good quality plumbing parts and a large selection, find a plumbing supply warehouse/store in your area that sells to residents as well as contractors. There is almost certainly one nearby, but it's not going to be advertised like Home Depot or Lowes. It will have everything you will ever need, but you'll probably have to tell them exactly the part at the front desk, as you won't be able to look at bins on the shelves like in the big box stores.
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Jun 22, 2021 00:43
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And of course, nothing ever goes as planned with plumbing. I installed the valve body in the water softener and noticed is was a little cockeyed. Looking deeper, the head of the unit doesn't seem to be securely locked in to the resin tank. I tried pushing it down, but it isn't budging. I'm going to contact GE Appliances and see where to go from here.
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Jun 22, 2021 01:00
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I got impatient from not hearing back from GE, so I decided to have a better look at it. The resin tank had shifted during shipping which caused the rotation. Nothing was broken, it was just all tilted. That tank is a little too heavy for me to move back into place with no good way to get leverage on it, so I disassembled and removed the whole top section. I had suspicions this was a rebox because the instructions said to remove a cap and wire from the impeller (147 bottom right) and those had already been removed and were nowhere to be found. There were supposed to be 4 clips included and there were only two in the packaging. I found the other two (145 middle right) already installed on the head unit. After removing the whole top section and getting a good look inside, I saw a large O-ring sitting in the bottom of the tank. That O-ring was the seal between the head assembly and the resin tank which were already connected when it arrived - minus the O-ring. Everything is now reassembled and back where it should be, and nothing appears broken, so I'm just going to hold off before connecting it up and voice my concerns to GE whenever they get back to me and see what they think. Two other things that struck me odd was that there was no foam or anything in the unit to prevent the resin tank from moving around during shipping and, when I disconnected the water line (117 bottom left) that goes into the venturi assembly, water came out of it. There is a sticker on the back that says it was tested, so maybe that is a result of the testing. I don't know, but there are a lot of red flags here. Skunkduster fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 23, 2021 |
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Jun 23, 2021 02:43
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Cross posting this here, from one of the catch all threads.MeKeV posted:GAS?
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Jun 24, 2021 13:52
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MeKeV posted:Cross posting this here, from one of the catch all threads. Look to see if you can get a propane conversion kit for it. You will need a few different parts that may be user swappable.
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Jun 24, 2021 14:28
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tater_salad posted:Look to see if you can get a propane conversion kit for it. You will need a few different parts that may be user swappable. Thanks. I'd prefer it not to go to waste like, but I don't expect to find too many specific details or conversion kits for the specific model cheap Chinese import like that. The listing even says make sure you order the correct version, I was just dumb. I ask on the off chance, with me accidentally having a successful test run on butane, some one might hint at saying "it'll work ok, but just run through gas quickly" or something like that. Or conversely a "do not try it again on LPG, it'll blow your face off" warning for everyone to see.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:54
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MeKeV posted:I ask on the off chance, with me accidentally having a successful test run on butane, some one might hint at saying "it'll work ok, but just run through gas quickly" or something like that. Well then let me address this for you: do NOT run it on LPG. It's very likely to damage the unit, potentially in a way that it fails so badly you cause a fire. LPG is more energy dense than natural gas. The fuel orifices need to be smaller or you'll be burning it at best dirty and ragged, at worst too hot.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:59
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Our soon-to-be new house (yay!) runs on well water. There's a drought on. The well is doing okay right now, but I would rather minimize water usage, since the drought isn't going away any time soon. I'm looking at an on-demand water recirculating pump; the brand that got the best online reviews was Taco Genie. I don't want a continuous system because it uses so much electricity. I'm perfectly willing to wait a minute before the on-demand system has gotten the water hot. My plan is to go to a local plumber, ask which recirculating pump they recommend, and do that. Are there reasons this is a bad idea? The house dates to 1931, so running new plumbing loops isn't going to happen. e: I have to have an electrician anyway to replace a Zinsco subpanel (yikes!) so installing an electric socket under the sink won't be a problem.
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Jun 24, 2021 21:14
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Hi, going to ask here also before having a plumber come over. I replaced the cartridge on my faucet because the other one had gotten quite noisy. The first few times I did not have it aligned properly (water came out of the handle) - fixed that, but now after a few runs, hot water only trickles out. I made sure the supply lines didn't have any weird kinks, and tried turning them full off and then on. The issue does not affect the cold side. Basically adjusting the hot water supply line valve has absolutely no effect. faucet https://www.pfisterfaucets.com/bathroom/product/venturi-lf-042-vn-single-control-bathroom-faucet?modelNumber=LF-042-VNCC parts diagram https://pfisterstorage.blob.core.windows.net/documents/pf_pe_lf042-vn.pdf I replaced the cartridge and the ring that surrounds it (974-074, 962-075 in the diagram) https://imgur.com/a/kKciwYJ
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Jun 27, 2021 18:09
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How long are PEX and copper Plumbing expected to last? We just repiped to PEX, with final run to the valve and stubouts in copper (looks like type M). I've read 30 to 50 for PEX, and 70 to 80 for copper with a couple sites saying 50 max, 20 likely (notably the lower estimates are from plumbing contractors/repipe specialists). Just trying to learn as much about all things home ownership while wreno.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:41
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PageMaster posted:How long are PEX and copper Plumbing expected to last? We just repiped to PEX, with final run to the valve and stubouts in copper (looks like type M). I've read 30 to 50 for PEX, and 70 to 80 for copper with a couple sites saying 50 max, 20 likely (notably the lower estimates are from plumbing contractors/repipe specialists). Just trying to learn as much about all things home ownership while wreno.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:55
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Nitrox posted:It depends on variety of factors, like quality of installation, the actual fittings used, manufacturing imperfections, water chemistry, climate, and many more. PEX hasn't been around long enough for us to establish a baseline, compared to copper that is. Exactly, and I'm also skeptical of how well PEX is going to hold up well in hot, low humidity climates. Contractors, plumbing companies, etc., all love to use PEX here in Phoenix because of how fast it is to install, etc., but they said the same thing about Poly-B, though I don't think PEX has nearly the limitations or inherent deficiencies that Poly-b had. I do worry that the plasticizers are going to volatilize off long-term if not well insulated, especially since here a lot of companies run it through the attic, and then you're going to be looking at PEX that has become partially rigid and lost a lot of its burst strength.
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Jun 28, 2021 05:07
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The biggest issue is where PEX is stored. It has to be kept away from UV as much as possible, so: inside. If your plumber keeps stock outside, in the sun, it will degrade far faster. The problem is that you, the customer, have no idea where the PEX going into your home was stored, or for how long.
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Jun 28, 2021 14:35
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Plumbing: PEX is stored in the Balls, No UV exposure
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Jun 28, 2021 15:03
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SourKraut posted:I do worry that the plasticizers are going to volatilize off long-term if not well insulated, especially since here a lot of companies run it through the attic, and then you're going to be looking at PEX that has become partially rigid and lost a lot of its burst strength. This is what always concerned me about Uponor (PEX-A), which relies on specific memory characteristics of the material to maintain its grip on fittings. Whereas something like the cinch clamps with PEX-B, you have a stainless steel clamp compressing the pipe around a (hopefully) brass fitting. Similar methods are used to hold tubing to fittings for applications that require much higher pressures and/or extreme environments than a wimpy 80PSI, stationary water pipe. Even with Poly-B, most of the failures happened at fittings. PEX could end up being the CPVC of the future: a perfectly good system if you leave it alone, but after time it won't stand up to much abuse.
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Jun 28, 2021 15:15
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B-Nasty posted:This is what always concerned me about Uponor (PEX-A), which relies on specific memory characteristics of the material to maintain its grip on fittings. Whereas something like the cinch clamps with PEX-B, you have a stainless steel clamp compressing the pipe around a (hopefully) brass fitting. Similar methods are used to hold tubing to fittings for applications that require much higher pressures and/or extreme environments than a wimpy 80PSI, stationary water pipe. Even with Poly-B, most of the failures happened at fittings. Yeah, the clamping/restraint at the fittings is definitely one of my concerns with PEX, since almost all plastics eventually lose their tensile strength over time, when said plastics dependent upon plasticizers for flexibility. And I do believe that PEX has its place, and yeah, given the right design/approach/installation, I think it could be a very good system in certain circumstances, and best to avoid in other circumstances. I do like the cinch clamps, and think they're a much better clamping style than those of the past, such as with Poly-b. But even with Poly-B, everyone focused on and remembers the high failure rate at the fittings, which was definitely true, but it was more complicated than that: - Early Poly-B installs used plastic fittings with plastic clamps/crimp rings (!!!!!), and this resulted in fairly rapid failure (<< 5 years, typically). - They revised the fittings/crimp rings to be (typically) copper, with the thought that the copper/metal crimp rings would keep the pipe restrained onto the fitting a lot better. This has proven to be relatively true, since failures at fittings dropped substantially, and there are a lot of locations in the US where Poly-B is still in service (unfortunately) using the metal fittings. - While all plumbing systems have some level of life expectancy, Poly-B's is much shorter in any location that has high chlorine residuals in the water and/or where the municipality uses chloramines for disinfection residual, because the free chlorine radical aggressively attacks Poly-b and breaks down the pipe wall. So it is just a matter of when, not if, the pipe ruptures due to internal wall degradation regardless of the fitting install quality. - Because of the nature of Poly-b, once it ruptures, it rapidly fails outward from the point of rupture, hence catastrophic flooding. That's actually why I'm not sure how well PEX is going to age in climates/conditions that favor reduction of the plasticizer over time, especially since this is independent of UV exposure. Because on one hand, if it goes brittle, it should see some level of catastrophic failure like other plastic pipe materials, but at the same time, PEX is typically manufactured using cross-linked polyethylene these days I believe, which should ideally reduce the catastrophic rupture chances so that when it does fail, it would hopefully a larger version of the copper pipe-style pinholing.
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Jun 28, 2021 17:06
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Nitrox posted:It depends on variety of factors, like quality of installation, the actual fittings used, manufacturing imperfections, water chemistry, climate, and many more. PEX hasn't been around long enough for us to establish a baseline, compared to copper that is. This is what led me to use copper for my house repipe. It felt less likely to have a 20-year surprise. What that surprise will be is anyones guess - Oops it causes cancer, Oops the fittings suck, Oops it's all brittle now, etc. Copper is very well known, doesn't seem to cause cancer, and just sorta does its thing. It may have its own 20 year surprise, but it feels more like 50-year surprises which frankly so be it. I'll be pushing 90.
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Jun 28, 2021 17:43
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H110Hawk posted:This is what led me to use copper for my house repipe. It felt less likely to have a 20-year surprise. What that surprise will be is anyones guess - Oops it causes cancer, Oops the fittings suck, Oops it's all brittle now, etc. Copper is very well known, doesn't seem to cause cancer, and just sorta does its thing. It may have its own 20 year surprise, but it feels more like 50-year surprises which frankly so be it. I'll be pushing 90. Yeah, and copper's "surprise" tends to be pinhole leaks, which... while they suck, is not usually "house flooding"-level of catastrophic.
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Jun 28, 2021 18:06
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, and copper's "surprise" tends to be pinhole leaks, which... while they suck, is not usually "house flooding"-level of catastrophic. I can't help remembering Buffy's anguished "Full copper repipe!"
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Jun 28, 2021 18:26
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Can you even get a house repiped in copper without doing it yourself? When I got my house repiped a few years ago nobody used copper anymore. Everyone was only using PEX. I went with Uponor because I've had several friends and acquaintances with flood damage from broken metal rings on their pex-B fittings.
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Jun 28, 2021 18:48
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Hmm I didn't get any replies here, but here is an update to my above post  A plumber first told me to try removing the cartridge and turning on the water supply, in case there was any debris in that area, but the hot water would not flush. I called Pfister, and they said that there was probably also an issue with the flow regulator (part 941-466 in the parts diagram). They are sending me a new one, and another cartridge just in case. They also recommended I flush the water supply lines into a bucket, and clean the threading next to the cartridge (this is where the brass gasket threads and holds the cartridge in place).
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Jun 28, 2021 18:52
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, and copper's "surprise" tends to be pinhole leaks, which... while they suck, is not usually "house flooding"-level of catastrophic. And maybe burns your house down on install! (A friend had this happen, an unlucky drip of something into a wall cavity yielded him a new kitchen from his insurance.) SpartanIvy posted:Can you even get a house repiped in copper without doing it yourself? When I got my house repiped a few years ago nobody used copper anymore. Everyone was only using PEX. I went with Uponor because I've had several friends and acquaintances with flood damage from broken metal rings on their pex-B fittings. If you spec it, they will do it. You might wind up paying a premium but ~5 years ago when I did it they shrugged and said it was the same price either way.
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Jun 28, 2021 18:56
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I replaced the iron water supply at my old house with pex from street to the pressure regulator so I guess if it completely fails the new owners will wind up with a damp yard.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:02
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H110Hawk posted:If you spec it, they will do it. You might wind up paying a premium but ~5 years ago when I did it they shrugged and said it was the same price either way. Long term I don't know how it will hold up but I did a lot of research and it seemed like it's a pretty great system so I went with it. Hopefully it stands the test of time, but even if it doesn't, I don't know that I'll be in the house still to find out.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:12
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SpartanIvy posted:That's awesome. I was thinking I'd do copper when I was first looking at getting repiped but I asked the three or so places I got quotes from, and at least the first few places said they didn't even offer copper installs anymore because unless they charge $gently caress-you prices, they're losing money with how long it takes vs PEX. The plumber that did my house did it by himself in less than a day and even did a little bit of extra work for me "for free" because he got done ahead of schedule. Yeah I'm out in the sticks which helps. Some places put a flat copper surcharge on, others said it was a little less, others a little more. It was strange given that copper as a material must cost more than pex, plus the excess labor cost. It wound up being subbed out to a crew who pealed the magnetic sign off their truck and supervised by the company I hired so I imagine I overpaid enough, but oh well. The supervisor did all of the crawling under the house work though so it's not like he didn't earn his dinner.
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Jun 28, 2021 19:35
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I got a dehumidifier that includes a pump that uses a 1/4 OD hose. It attaches by just pushing the hose into the machine, so there's no kind of compression fitting threads I could use to attach a hose to. I'd like to move the unit to another part of my basement and run a line up in the ceiling to the utility sink. The basement is unfinished so it would all be exposed. I know here or elsewhere the advice for fridge lines is "don't use polyethylene long term" so is there a better option for my ~20 foot run?
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Jun 28, 2021 21:41
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We had to go out of our way to our 4th plumber to even find someone to do copper here in SoCal, and then it was a 40% cost increase (not sure if material driven or labor). Seems to be everywhere here now. I know it was in most of our houses in Europe so I wonder if there's historical data there
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Jun 28, 2021 22:29
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It's weird that you guys can't find anyone to do copper, it's the default material in commercial plumbing. The install speed has gone up because press fittings, but still cost more per foot by about 30%.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:43
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I think someone mentioned something similar above but maybe it's just quicker and easier for plumbers to knock out project after project with everyone doing renovation work right now. Two did say that the acidic and hard water keeps then from ever doing copper, but another refused to do PEX because it's a time bomb and he's read all the studies that the PEX industry is keeping from being released. Very strong opinions here apparently.
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Jun 28, 2021 22:55
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Nitrox posted:It's weird that you guys can't find anyone to do copper, it's the default material in commercial plumbing. The install speed has gone up because press fittings, but still cost more per foot by about 30%. I realize this is an ironic opinion since I have uponor, but those copper press fittings with o-rings making the seal give me pause. Just seems like a more expensive shark-bite system to me.
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Jun 28, 2021 23:00
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here's what I did so far after talking to Pfister this morning. They are sending me a new cartridge and flow regulator. disconnected both supply lines and ran water on full blast into a bucket for 30 seconds each. There was no problem getting a full stream of hot and cold water out of each. The hot line definitely had some debris that ended up in the bucket. reconnected supply lines. removed cartridge and cleaned threading with a water/vinegar mix. put a cup over this area and flushed out hot and cold water to get any extra debris out. The hot water came out a little bit, which is an improvement, but far from what I want. removed current flow regulator and cleaned debris out thoroughly, then replaced. cleaned any debris out of new cartridge. Things are a little better, the stream on the hot side is at least lukewarm, but doesn't get hot. The flow is still pretty weak. I also noted that the new cartridge seems to be a bit off. There are those two bumps that stick out on the bottom - on the old cartridge they are the same width and depth, but on this new one, one of the bumps is flatter and wider than the other, which I assume is not good as it needs to fit in snugly.
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Jun 28, 2021 23:42
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