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mind the walrus posted:Can we finally admit that Dinklage's vocal affect loving sucked? It was fine until they ran out of smart things for him to say.
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Jul 8, 2021 04:25
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:D&D made the conscious choice of writing him as a clear good guy instead of the villain GRRMs been turning him into because he was s a fan favorite. This became a serious problem when they then ran out of book material and so D&D wrote original plots for him based on their own lives of being a loving idiot who gives terrible advice that ruins everything. I hated dink's speech at the trial. I don't remember why, but it seemed like someone was trying to win an award instead of conveying the anger and frustration. It also made more sense when Tyrion was ugly as poo poo like in the book. You could more easily believe that people had poo poo all over him his entire life. >instead of the villain Wasn't Tyrion always a good guy in the books too? It seemed from the beginning he was always going to end up in one of the top 3 power positions. Jaime and Cersei were always doomed. Snow was always going to win, but be emo / tortured about it. I didn't think Dany was going to end up bat poo poo crazy, I thought she'd find some way through it. I thought Bran was going to turn out better than a shattered husk filled with an undead evil. Arya was always going to be the assassin who walked away from the guild. Sansa... I don't know. Once she lost Lady, that should have meant something deeper. I'd like to think that Rickon was always going to be a shaggy dog story, but the fatman didn't get enough edits to turn it into something funny and clever. I really thought the wights were going to be something way better, and liked the theories about how the Others were only invading because of a broken treaty or some poo poo. Maybe Jon would end up in some weird undead marriage to restore the truce. Lots of set up for self-sacrifice from him. Makes me sad that kelly c got hosed by the grrm. I liked her arc for a while. poor rickon 
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Jul 8, 2021 04:37
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Dinklage was perfect as show Tyrion; they wanted him to be more sympathetic, less petty, and more charismatic than book Tyrion, and he was great for that. GRRM loves to point out that book Tyrion is "the grayest of the gray" morally, but show Tyrion lands much more on the heroic side: he treats Sansa better, he doesn't have random minor characters killed, his killings of Shae and Tywin were more justified to the audience and he was portrayed as remorseful. In the show, when he resolves to join Daenerys, his motivation is that Westeros needs a better ruler and he believes it can be her. In the books (which, of course, the books have many more hints than the show did at that point about Daenerys not being a good person or better ruler after all), he's a lot more selfish and spiteful, his primary motivation is revenge, and he even has that scene with Young Griff where Tyrion advises him on manipulating Daenerys. EDIT: My point, which I neglected to actually say, is that they weren't writing Tyrion like he's written in the books and I don't honestly think they could have if they wanted to (both because of quality of writing and because of the cuts they made), regardless of the actor. They wanted something else and Dinklage nailed what they wanted... which, later in the show when what they wanted sucked, was a disappointment to us and a detriment to him. disaster pastor fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 12:25
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Dinklage should have used the same accent and performance he did in the movie with Gary Oldman in dwarf-face.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:05
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Didnt the TV show have Rickon show up only to be shot at by arrows lol what a horrible show
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Jul 8, 2021 14:21
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Shageletic posted:Didnt the TV show have Rickon show up only to be shot at by arrows lol what a horrible show Yup, Smalljon Umber doesn't die at the Red Wedding, he reveals in season 6 "oh, we've been hiding Rickon all this time, but now I'm going to give him to Ramsay," and then Ramsay arrows Rickon at the Battle of the Bastards to make Jon sad.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:33
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Shageletic posted:Didnt the TV show have Rickon show up only to be shot at by arrows lol what a horrible show His wolf's name is Shaggy Dog, basically letting his know that his story is a long pointless inconsequential joke. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shaggy-dog That's a GRRM thing. Not that it makes it any better. American Tolkien.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:39
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disaster pastor posted:Yup, Smalljon Umber doesn't die at the Red Wedding, he reveals in season 6 "oh, we've been hiding Rickon all this time, but now I'm going to give him to Ramsay," and then Ramsay arrows Rickon at the Battle of the Bastards to make Jon sad. I remember the theories between episodes on how this was part of an elaborate The North Remembers plot against Ramsey but lol nope Umber was a traitor and Rickon dies because he cant not run in a straight line. This was happening at the exact same time when we theorized that Arya was laying this elaborate trap and walking about in public flashing money was all part of the plan but nope shes just a complete moron.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:24
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I remember the theories between episodes on how this was part of an elaborate The North Remembers plot against Ramsey but lol nope Umber was a traitor and Rickon dies because he cant not run in a straight line. This was happening at the exact same time when we theorized that Arya was laying this elaborate trap and walking about in public flashing money was all part of the plan but nope shes just a complete moron. I count myself among the people who were initially fooled by the trappings of the show staying the same as the writing nosedived, but that Arya episode broked the spell entirely
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Jul 8, 2021 16:38
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I remember the theories between episodes on how this was part of an elaborate The North Remembers plot against Ramsey Which I can't honestly fault people for, because the books are clear that the North loved Ned, they loved Robb, and while they're publicly more or less accepting of the Boltons, pretty much all of them are either hoping or actively working behind Roose's back to restore the Starks to Winterfell. So with the tantalizing prospect of "oh, Benioff and Weiss are working off GRRM's notes!" hanging over everyone's heads, of course people were trying to see how this would play into the Northern scheme to bring the Boltons down. Meanwhile, in reality, Shimrra Jamaane posted:lol nope Umber was a traitor and Rickon dies because he cant not run in a straight line. (And then it descends further into farce, as the house heads decide Jon should be King in the North, and then he goes off to do diplomacy like a king does and once he's gone for like five minutes they're openly debating whether Sansa should be Queen instead because she's there and he's not, because I guess they lack object permanence)
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Jul 8, 2021 17:10
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The best way to defeat the North is just to stand back and watch as they screw each other over.
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Jul 8, 2021 18:36
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RCarr posted:Dinklage definitely had some great scenes, mostly early on. But then he went downhill. Not far to go, he had. 
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Jul 8, 2021 19:17
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disaster pastor posted:Dinklage was perfect as show Tyrion; they wanted him to be more sympathetic, less petty, and more charismatic than book Tyrion, and he was great for that. Who's they, and why should book readers care what they wanted?
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Jul 8, 2021 19:21
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Hasselblad posted:Who's they, and why should book readers care what they wanted? "They" are the show runners. I didn't say anyone should care what they wanted, just that they clearly got what they wanted.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:39
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Alhazred posted:The best way to defeat the North is just to stand back and watch as they screw each other over. I want to see a "Westeros, 5 years later" post-series episode just to see how much of a shitshow the North becomes, to say nothing of the remaining 6 kingdoms since the Iron Islands and Dorne aren't going to just nod along with Bran being their king after he lets his sister secede just because she wants to. Arya's arc was just the dumbest thing ever. Yes she was going to be the one to "leave" but it also was laying the groundwork where her ending could've meant leaving Westeros and heading to Essos, with it being suggested that she returned to the guild because "Arya" has finished her task and leaving it completely unclear as to whether she was Arya, the Waif, or someone else the whole time.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:00
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No one is worried in the slightest that Bran can't produce an heir. Bran being king in the show is peak stupidity.
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Jul 9, 2021 06:14
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BananaNutkins posted:No one is worried in the slightest that Bran can't produce an heir. Bran being king in the show is peak stupidity. On the other hand I can totally see GRRMs very amateur understanding of history making him believe that the system of electing the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire was a progressive step along the linear evolution out of feudalism rather than the chaotic destabilizing mess of competing power blocs that it actually was.
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Jul 9, 2021 06:23
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BananaNutkins posted:No one is worried in the slightest that Bran can't produce an heir. Bran being king in the show is peak stupidity. That's not necessarily a bad thing from the point of view of the powerbrokers of the seven kingdoms. When Bran dies they'll elect some other useless nobody and keep doing their own thing.
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Jul 9, 2021 07:51
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:That's not necessarily a bad thing from the point of view of the powerbrokers of the seven kingdoms. When Bran dies they'll elect some other useless nobody and keep doing their own thing. Yeah the "Six Kingdoms of Westeros" are going to go right back to the insanity that precipitated the entirety of Game of Thrones within the span of one lifetime because Tyrion's plan was dumb and Dorne and the Iron Isles are going to seceded at the first chance they get and whoever becomes king after Bran is just gonna throw out all of Tyrion's reforms and go back to dynastic rule. The entire series was a Shaggy Dog story. Everyone involved who was unfortunate enough to not be GRRM got punk'd.
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Jul 9, 2021 08:06
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disaster pastor posted:"They" are the show runners. I didn't say anyone should care what they wanted, just that they clearly got what they wanted. Sorry, reread your post and I reacted snarkily. Dinklage did what the show runners wanted him to be well, but in respect to book Tyrion, he sucked. IMOYMMV.
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Jul 9, 2021 13:08
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AMC Orders Dark Winds Series From Graham Roland, George R.R. Martin & Robert Redford Based On Tony Hillerman Books; Zahn McClarnon & Kiowa Gordon Star
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Jul 9, 2021 22:54
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I don't really have much issue with the casting, to be honest? I honestly think that they did a superb job at casting the show, most especially in those first few seasons. You have to walk a pretty thin line on a show like this, especially when so many important leads are also fairly young children. That's not at all easy to successfully pull off from a casting perspective, and I'd argue that several of their choices also happened to grow out of the roles that they were chosen for - Isaac Hempstead Wright as Bran comes to mind, for example; after season 3 or so, I felt like he had grown irretrievably out of the role. But he was still absolutely perfect initially, as were Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner as Arya and Sansa. Casting those three Stark kids well (especially the two girls) was absolutely vital to the success and health of the show, and I really feel like they went for actors that almost embody their book counterparts in an elemental way. Rory McCann as the Hound, Lena Headey as Cersei, Jack Gleeson as Joffrey, Michelle Fairley as Catelyn, even (maybe most especially) Sean Bean as Eddard... I would probably include Dinklage on this list too, though I think he ended up getting a bit more attention and esteem than was deserved, perhaps - it still worked exceptionally well at least for the first 3-4 seasons. These were all casting choices made in the pilot that I really feel were each extremely important to the success that the show had in the first three season. I'm not sure it would have been half the show without them (and probably some others too I missed). There ere some later casting choices (Charles Dance as Tywin, Pedro Pascal as Oberyn, Diana Rigg as Oleanna come primarily to mind) that were almost as good, primarily characters introduced between seasons 2 and 4 - after that it seems like there was some essential breakdown between the casting and the writing, and even many great actors whom they cast for certain roles fell horrifically flat. Someone like freaking Max Von Sydow should have been amazing as The Three-Eyed Crow/Bloodraven, but they totally hosed it up somehow and we was both forgettable and mediocre. kaworu fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jul 9, 2021 |
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Jul 9, 2021 23:02
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It doesn't matter, it's all poo poo and no one cares. Thanks D&D and GRRM for showing us the American dream
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Jul 10, 2021 04:00
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kaworu posted:Someone like freaking Max Von Sydow should have been amazing as The Three-Eyed Crow/Bloodraven, but they totally hosed it up somehow and we was both forgettable and mediocre. "I have been watching you with a thousand eyes... and one." *has two working eyes*
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Jul 10, 2021 04:06
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Both the books and the show really are the American Dream-- an energized sense of purpose and vision propelled by a hungry and talented underclass undone by lazy, over-privileged fucks who cashed out the first chance they got.
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Jul 10, 2021 04:16
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disaster pastor posted:"I have been watching you with a thousand eyes... and one." the one eyed snake was watching too
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Jul 10, 2021 15:48
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In retrospect, I kind of wish that the GoT show had just ended earlier on a cliffhanger. If not from just getting canceled around Season 5, then just with a planned "to be continued in another series" type of ending. Have the White Walkers invade and get beaten back, leaving the North as a devastated, but unified and battle-hardened Alliance that knows how to fight monsters. The Southern Kingdoms all have scrambled alliances just in time for Dany to arrive, while Dorne's allegiances are up in the air. Just set the whole thing up for a future TV series that can be picked up by showrunners who actually give a drat.. You can even have it pick up after the books once GRRM dies and someone actually finishes them. I've never really been impressed by fantasy world-building. I've played TTRPGs for amateur DMs who do just as good of a job building their worlds as any established author out there. It doesn't take an incredible amount of talent to come up with interesting lore about a fantasy world's food or warfare and I'm not afraid to put down a book after the fifth time someone tells the history of bread in the nation of R'lith'aman-Narb'ok. But one of the things I enjoyed about Ice and Fire's worldbuilding is how the history of Westeros felt like a series of interconnected stories that lead up to the books' current events. While George's grasp of historical facts can be wonky like you folks have all pointed out, I think he has a good grasp of history as being a series of interactions dating back thousands of years. That comprehension is reflected in his writing, and I would expect that George plans for the end of Ice and Fire's story as a setup to more events to happen in Westeros after the credits roll. I don't expect an actual "ending" from Ice and Fire, and I thought that the only way that the show could reflect that would be by having a really unsatisfying cliffhanger or just getting canceled part of the way through. The more that everything seemed like it was going to have a proper "ending", the more I started to worry.
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Jul 10, 2021 16:56
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kaworu posted:I don't really have much issue with the casting, to be honest? I honestly think that they did a superb job at casting the show, most especially in those first few seasons. You have to walk a pretty thin line on a show like this, especially when so many important leads are also fairly young children. Jason Momoa was a good pick for Khal Drogo, not that there was a whole lot for him to do before dying off.
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Jul 10, 2021 17:50
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Its funny how because GRRM has now gone a decade without a new book its caused a lot of reexamination of the series which normally doesnt occur until years after something is completed. Makes sense since no one interested in the series has anything to do except reread the same text over and over like theyre trying to find some new interpretation of a Bible verse. And it turns out GRRM really wasnt as great a writer and world builder as most people thought.
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Jul 10, 2021 18:40
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He was very digestible. Creating all the various
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Jul 12, 2021 05:01
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Yes. For all of his flaws, GRRM has strengths as well. Setting story seeds naturally both in the past lore and at the periphery of the POV characters. Creating interesting factions with organic motivations. Managing the multiple characters while moving the narrative (if not necessarily the greater storyline) along. Random question that always bugged me: How do the wildlings, you know....bring back what they steal from their raids over the wall? "Alright! I got me eight bags of grain, a new horse and a stolen wife! Now to....carry them on my back climbing the 800-foot ice wall both ways?" I know some went around the wall by boat in Eastwatch, but that still leaves a whoooole big stretch of deserted land (the Gift) that could not really be raided unless the wildlings just want murder and not loot. Which we saw was not really the case.
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Jul 12, 2021 11:17
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Well, climbing a vertical 800 foot (!) ice wall is already totally unfeasible without modern equipment. So for all we know GRRM imagines the wildlings tie an 800 foot long rope around their loot and haul it up and down again. Incidentally, today is the 10 year anniversary of ADWD being published. Many years!
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Jul 12, 2021 11:33
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Ten loving years.
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Jul 12, 2021 12:18
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Sephyr posted:Yes. For all of his flaws, GRRM has strengths as well. Setting story seeds naturally both in the past lore and at the periphery of the POV characters. Creating interesting factions with organic motivations. Managing the multiple characters while moving the narrative (if not necessarily the greater storyline) along. Of course, if the books follow the same path as the show all of that will amount to nothing, but in the moment it was well done.
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Jul 12, 2021 13:08
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Happy 10 year anniversary of last book!
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Jul 12, 2021 13:27
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He really made it an entire decade without even an announcement of the next book lmao.
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Jul 12, 2021 14:19
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Junkenstein posted:Ten loving years. More and more people are saying it! 
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Jul 12, 2021 15:26
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This secret preview posted in 2011 is 10 years old. Last line loving called it.basx posted:
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Jul 12, 2021 15:48
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SECRET PREVIEW: The Winds of Winter
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I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't read it if it came out but I no longer care if it does.
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Jul 12, 2021 15:51
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I still think the funniest possibility is that it finally does come out but its just full of more long meandering POV chapters of characters who were introduced in one of the last two books just traveling places and that the main character plotlines get only as far as Jon being resurrected and Tyrion meeting Dany. And thats the end.
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Jul 12, 2021 16:05
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