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I think what's notable about Vetinari is that he could be pulled down rather easily if everybody wanted him gone. He stays in power because he's everybody's second choice. He doesn't have overwhelming force or the whole-hearted support of the military or anything like that, he has a grudging "If I can't be the one leading, I'd rather it be him than them" from everybody in a position of power.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 21:38 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:16 |
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:benevolent dictatorship is arguably the best and ideal form of government it's not
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 21:47 |
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ChubbyChecker posted:it's not That never stopped Plato.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 21:54 |
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Narsham posted:I made a note to post in the thread about Vimes and the Summoning Dark when I reread Snuff and I am finally doing that. gently caress. Even in the midst of his illness, man still had a plan. I loving miss Terry Pratchett.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 23:11 |
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I found a copy of Witches Abroad in a little free library.
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# ? Aug 17, 2021 00:29 |
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Narsham posted:I made a note to post in the thread about Vimes and the Summoning Dark when I reread Snuff and I am finally doing that. Ahhhhhhhhh. That's perfect. The Summoning Dark is a partner agency in subterranean supernatural affairs. Or maybe a vigilante/criminal informant. It's not a constant companion, so it's not overpowered at all. Bless that writer, clearly too good for this world.
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# ? Aug 17, 2021 01:59 |
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The only thing I feel like Pterry maybe drops the ball a bit with is that there could probably be a bit more characters of color in the AM stories, given how cosmopolitan that setting is supposed to be. It would be nice if we had a major Watch character who was Klatchian or something. I don't know if he counts as a major character, but I think its mentioned that Visit (and most Omnians) are darker than the average city denizen. But yeah, other than that, most main characters are white. Or at least assumed to be, a lot of characters' race isn't outright stated. We know Carrot has bright orange hair which means he's probably white. Angua is described as having blonde hair, and also being from Uberwald which is basically eastern europe. Dwarves' skin colors aren't usually mentioned though. They're probably pretty pale since they live mostly under ground. Aside from that, anyone could be any race really.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 18:50 |
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A Moose posted:I don't know if he counts as a major character, but I think its mentioned that Visit (and most Omnians) are darker than the average city denizen. But yeah, other than that, most main characters are white. Or at least assumed to be, a lot of characters' race isn't outright stated. We know Carrot has bright orange hair which means he's probably white. Angua is described as having blonde hair, and also being from Uberwald which is basically eastern europe. Dwarves' skin colors aren't usually mentioned though. They're probably pretty pale since they live mostly under ground. Aside from that, anyone could be any race really. There's always Nobby
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 19:08 |
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There's Twoflower. He's whatever the Discworld analog of asian is, isn't he? Let's not mention that he's a tourist stereotypically obsessed with taking photos... it was an early novel, ok.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 19:18 |
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Imagined posted:There's Twoflower. He's whatever the Discworld analog of asian is, isn't he? Let's not mention that he's a tourist stereotypically obsessed with taking photos... Yep. There’s also Pteppic from Pyramids who’s Egyptian-esque
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 19:20 |
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There's 71-Hour Ahmed and the other Klatchans as well. Although Klatch kind of feels like it gets ignored post-Jingo but most of that could be how focused the different books are in either Lancre or AM. Witches Abroad as well. It seems like Terry leaned more in to the fantasy races as the various model minorities.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 20:26 |
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Lao-Tze as well, who in his first appearance in Small Gods is very much a mysterious generically asian dude just kind of bumbling around and then by Thief of Time is the James Bond of quantum mechanics and time travel.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 20:39 |
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Imagined posted:There's Twoflower. He's whatever the Discworld analog of asian is, isn't he? Let's not mention that he's a tourist stereotypically obsessed with taking photos... it was an early novel, ok. He's Agatean.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 20:59 |
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tbh I don't think Discworld does a great job with race, mainly because the early books are lampooning fantasy stories that were often full of orientalist tropes, and the later books are more concerned with fantasy analogies of race.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 21:10 |
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:tbh I don't think Discworld does a great job with race, mainly because the early books are lampooning fantasy stories that were often full of orientalist tropes, and the later books are more concerned with fantasy analogies of race. yeah, but it wasn't only the early books, interesting times also has some of that stuff
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 21:15 |
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Later Snuff report: turns out that the Watchman puts in an appearance as well closer to the end (342-3 in my hardback):Terry Pratchett posted:The Vimes in the mirror said, You know he doesn't just want to kill you. That wouldn't be good enough for a bastard like that, not by a long way. He wants to destroy you and will try everything until he does. Looks like Vimes, and warns him to watch everywhere? We know who that is (if you read Thud!, anyway).
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 22:49 |
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ChubbyChecker posted:yeah, but it wasn't only the early books, interesting times also has some of that stuff I feel like it's the worst with Rincewind books, since his books are him jumping from local to local to poke fun at fantasy tropes/media then they move on to media in general. While interesting times is more political then others, it's still based on western depictions of east asian countries. I think this is partly why we don't get Rincewind much in later Discworld. And that's also the same reason Klatch fades into the background.
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 23:19 |
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I mean, the main point (or at least the subplot) of most Watch/Ankh-Morpork books is overcoming prejudice towards previously discriminated species- from Angua to Detritus to Reg Shoe. He doesn't really do a ton of stuff with color in those books, but the message usually comes through loud and clear.
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# ? Aug 19, 2021 00:08 |
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I always read Rincewind's misadventures being less about poking fun at fantasy tropes (which is certainly there) and more about using a very inempt wizzard who also happens to be a very skilled runner to give broad strokes for some new setting that would get touched on later. You don't get much from him latter because there's no real new places left untouched on the map (and because "rincewind runs very fast away from danger into more danger" can only be written so many times). He even lampshades this in the last hero when he volunteers to be launched with Leonard and Carrot. "Oh some dangerous unknown unexplored place yeah no i'll end up going here anyway."
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# ? Aug 19, 2021 00:37 |
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citybeatnik posted:I always read Rincewind's misadventures being less about poking fun at fantasy tropes (which is certainly there) and more about using a very inempt wizzard who also happens to be a very skilled runner to give broad strokes for some new setting that would get touched on later. This may be true from books 3 on, but The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic are both straight fantasy parody.
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# ? Aug 19, 2021 04:57 |
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Chamberk posted:I mean, the main point (or at least the subplot) of most Watch/Ankh-Morpork books is overcoming prejudice towards previously discriminated species- from Angua to Detritus to Reg Shoe. He doesn't really do a ton of stuff with color in those books, but the message usually comes through loud and clear.
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# ? Aug 19, 2021 05:38 |
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ulmont posted:This may be true from books 3 on, but The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic are both straight fantasy parody. Oh absolutely with you there. I was talking more about Interesting Times, Sourcerer, The Lost Continent, etc.
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# ? Aug 19, 2021 12:59 |
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I think the line about "Black and White lived in perfect harmony, and ganged up on Green" from Equal Rites was the only one where he over-glossed the topic for the sake of a one-liner. Most of the time humans are allowed to be nasty and bigoted at each other, it's just framed as country/region of origin rather than color.
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 14:55 |
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KellHound posted:While interesting times is more political then others, it's still based on western depictions of east asian countries. Doesn't the book have an warlord who is more or less a reverse weeaboo?
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 16:01 |
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I don't think I've read a single Discworld book about wizards and their appearances in the rest of the series did nothing to change my mind.
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 17:14 |
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Dave Syndrome posted:Doesn't the book have an warlord who is more or less a reverse weeaboo? Yah, he cosplays as an Ankh-Morporkian in private
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 17:20 |
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Doctor Jeep posted:I don't think I've read a single Discworld book about wizards and their appearances in the rest of the series did nothing to change my mind. The wizards own
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 18:51 |
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I was just going to drop "LIVE FATS DIE YO GNU" and let that be its own endorsement of the Wizards. But looking at it just now, knowing how "GNU Terry Pratchett" has taken on its own significance, gave me several long moments of thoughtful pause.
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 19:20 |
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My step-father, now retired, spent his career in academia and thus loved the wizards as an utterly accurate depiction of a university faculty.
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 19:22 |
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Dave Syndrome posted:Doesn't the book have an warlord who is more or less a reverse weeaboo? Yes, Lord Hong. He's a direct parallel to how Japan westernised in the Meiji period.
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# ? Aug 21, 2021 08:54 |
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Ahh yes, pre eminent among the Fang, Sung, Tang and McSweeney dynasties. (IT was my first Discworld book and it stil has a special place in my heart.)
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 07:16 |
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I remember one Rincewind book where he goes to fantasy Australia. And I think..... Deaths assistant? reads up a list of animals that are dangerous on the continent. And Death asks him to just list the things that aren't dangerous and the answer was something like "a few of the sheep I guess" and I remember thinking that a better answer would have been to make a reference to Rincewind since he was on the continent at that very moment. To emphasize how dangerous the continent was in contrast to him.
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# ? Aug 23, 2021 21:00 |
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Feliday Melody posted:I remember one Rincewind book where he goes to fantasy Australia. Rincewind is surprisingly dangerous. He ran around for years with a creation spell in his head and went to fight the creatures of the Dungeon Dimension with a brick in a sock. He’s one of the few people to survive proximity to Cohen the Barbarian
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# ? Aug 23, 2021 21:29 |
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quote:Death held out a hand. I WANT, he said, A BOOK ABOUT THE DANGEROUS CREATURES OF FOURECKS-
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# ? Aug 23, 2021 21:30 |
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thetoughestbean posted:Rincewind is surprisingly dangerous. He ran around for years with a creation spell in his head and went to fight the creatures of the Dungeon Dimension with a brick in a sock. He’s one of the few people to survive proximity to Cohen the Barbarian It's overlooked because Rincewind turned into comic relief. In the early books he's portrayed as seeking to avoid fights at all costs but knowing a lot about dirty fighting if he's cornered. He's also sexually active, although you can understand why that disappears after Sourcery. But that's the point where he becomes a one-note character existing only to run from one joke to the next.
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# ? Aug 24, 2021 01:04 |
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I still like the Lost Continent.
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# ? Aug 24, 2021 01:10 |
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There’s a moment in Unseen Academicals where, when a bunch of wizards start fighting, Rincewind remembers the last time wizards fought like this and took off a sock and started looking for a brick
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# ? Aug 24, 2021 01:15 |
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I'm reading Interesting Times for the first time right now and by Pratchett standards it feels like there is some pretty cringy stuff in there. Some of it is the orientalism you'd expect, but surprising things that jumped out at me were the centrist boomer stuff about how it's pointless to try to change the system and anyone trying to lead a revolution is just out for their own glory, etc. quote:He wanted to say: how could you be so nice and yet so dumb? The best thing you could do with the peasents was to leave them alone. Let them get on with it. When people who can read and write start fighting for those who can't, you just end up with another kind of stupidity. If you want to help them, build a big library or something somewhere and leave the door open. quote:"I know about people who talk about suffering for the common good. It's never bloody them! When you hear a man shouting "Forward, brave comrades!" you'll see he's the one behind the bloody big rock and the one wearing the only really arrow-proof helmet!" It is funny, though. The entire bit where the wizards discuss teleporting Rincewind to the Counterweight Continent while he tries futilely to object is so loving funny. Imagined fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 24, 2021 |
# ? Aug 24, 2021 03:38 |
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Imagined posted:I'm reading Interesting Times for the first time right now and by Pratchett standards it feels like there is some pretty cringy stuff in there. Some of it is the orientalism you'd expect, but surprising things that jumped out at me were the centrist boomer stuff about how it's pointless to try to change the system and anyone trying to lead a revolution is just out for their own glory, etc. To me, one of his cringiest books (but yes some fantastic bits in it as well). "The chains are in their heads" was devastating - but should have been in a book about Ankh-Morpork, because it's every bit of true about the audience as their foreign counterparts.
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# ? Aug 24, 2021 03:52 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:16 |
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Imagined posted:I'm reading Interesting Times for the first time right now and by Pratchett standards it feels like there is some pretty cringy stuff in there. Some of it is the orientalism you'd expect, but surprising things that jumped out at me were the centrist boomer stuff about how it's pointless to try to change the system and anyone trying to lead a revolution is just out for their own glory, etc. That's consistent throughout Pratchett though (centralism, not orientalism!). It's a significant part of Guards! Guards! at one end of the series but it's also there in Night Watch towards the other end to pick two examples. The Lipwig books are where he tips his toe into 'how do you change things for the better?' and I think one of the more interesting insights put into those books is 'the people who can deliver disruptive positive change share significant characteristics with fraudsters and conmen'. Going Postal being released in the same year that Elon Musk became CEO of Tesla.
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# ? Aug 24, 2021 09:56 |