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Dishwasher posted:I also love RoS. My… GOD  But seriously, in what ways does that person make that comparison? Because while that is certainly A Take, I’m legitimately interested to hear the reasoning.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:25
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FilthyImp posted:
That's too much for me. I am not of the belief that there is a deep (or deeper) meaning for all choices made in a film (even in a medium where you have almost total control like animation). Shinji is older so he has an older voice, that's it for me. Besides, this particular eva film is like, not subtle at all. I would expect Shinji to go, in his new voice, "I am a new person now" if that was what they were going for. Dishwasher posted:I also love RoS. You had me fooled for a second there!
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Aug 25, 2021 20:33
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I believe he meant going for a happier ending with less edge and angst than many expected. Another way I've heard it put is as an RPG with EoE being the Asuka-route and 4.0 being the Rei-route. One more cynical and violent because its the bad ending. And one more hopeful because its the good ending.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:35
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Vinylshadow posted:It's obviously the start of another timeline and let's do the Eva Warp again Hell yeah! Shinji receives a call from Misato "We weren't supposed to leave Shinji, it was a mistake. We have to go back to the Evas...WE HAVE TO GO BACK." Also re: debate on interpretations why does there have to be one particular message or intention behind the work? Does the movies embodying biographical elements of Anno's life mean it can't say anything else or vice-versa? In the end though, Evangelion was the friends we made along the way.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:37
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Dishwasher posted:I believe he meant going for a happier ending with less edge and angst than many expected. This is an insanely weird reading of EoE and 3.0+1.0  what
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Aug 25, 2021 20:40
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Dishwasher posted:I believe he meant going for a happier ending with less edge and angst than many expected. But 4.0 wasn't that cynical and violent of an ending?
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Aug 25, 2021 20:42
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Dishwasher posted:Another way I've heard it put is as an RPG with EoE being the Asuka-route and 4.0 being the Rei-route. One more cynical and violent because its the bad ending. don’t make me tap the sign
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Aug 25, 2021 20:45
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Levin posted:Hell yeah! Shinji receives a call from Misato "We weren't supposed to leave Shinji, it was a mistake. We have to go back to the Evas...WE HAVE TO GO BACK." Shinji deliberately picks up a cigar, lights it up, puts it on the side of his mouth and -in a gruff voice- replies. -NO. (everybody dies. cut to credits) Levin posted:Also re: debate on interpretations why does there have to be one particular message or intention behind the work? Does the movies embodying biographical elements of Anno's life mean it can't say anything else or vice-versa? There are specific messages and intentions behind a work. But that doesn't mean that other interpretations are less valid.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:47
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Zore posted:This is an insanely weird reading of EoE and 3.0+1.0 Oh, I agree. But there's many takes out there and part of the fun for me is seeing all the various opinions of the finished project instead of all the speculation. I'm also horrified how much people hated 3.33 and the airship stuff looking through the years of old posts and reviews. Archer666 posted:But 4.0 wasn't that cynical and violent of an ending? Not really?
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Aug 25, 2021 20:48
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Dishwasher posted:I believe he meant going for a happier ending with less edge and angst than many expected. Instead of poopooing you, I will take the bait and say that ANIMA was the Asuka-route.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:58
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After watching all 4 movies in one sitting, my take is that Rei got done dirty in every conceivable way. Also, the 4th movie was way too artsy fartsy for my liking. Impressive visuals though.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:06
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Dishwasher posted:- Hello, I hate 3.33. it's a steaming piece of poo poo. I give kudos to Anno for having the balls to do something like it but drat if it ain't aggressively bad (outside the Kaworu stuff), it made waiting for the ending a non-issue as it killed any hype I had. 3+1 is miles better but that's no praise.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:20
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3.33 is a little clunky at the end but overall it's pretty good and I don't really get people calling it subversive or shocking honestly. I don't think a more direct sequel would've been that different in most meaningful ways, I just get the impression that Anno saw the opportunity to go a bit wilder with the setting after 2.0 unchained things and went for it.
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Aug 25, 2021 22:00
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I audibly gasped when Gendo raised an a/t field against his son. Thematic brilliance
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Aug 25, 2021 22:07
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3.0 plays significantly better IMO when you know what to expect and therefore are not so put off by the weird shock of its first 20 minutes or so after 2.0.
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Aug 25, 2021 22:08
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3.33 is worth it even just for the soundtrack (I think the extended one?). Load up some of those freaky/badass English opera songs and check a lyric sheet on a wiki and see that someone legit tried to make some awesome religious/metal poo poo when most people wouldn't even notice what the chorus is singing. EDIT: Yeah, click the song names on this page: https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Music_from_Evangelion:_3.0_You_Can_(Not)_Redo Example: Scarred and Battled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZepFdrLxbnM quote:Wade through the blood and the stench This is either a Papa Roach song or something amazing. JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 22:08
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I love the idea that Anno had all these ideas for where the plot would go after 2.0, realized as soon as he started 3.0 that he couldn't make a movie that didn't have Shinji in it, but didn't alter the story he'd planned in any way, he just skipped the story ahead to whenever Shinji would rejoin it. King poo pooJazzFlight posted:3.33 is worth it even just for the soundtrack (I think the extended one?). Load up some of those freaky/badass English opera songs and check a lyric sheet on a wiki and see that someone legit tried to make some awesome religious/metal poo poo when most people wouldn't even notice what the chorus is singing. The lyrics to the original songs Sagisu composed for the Rebuilds sometimes veer into Hiroyuki Sawano levels of cheese, except the English lyrics are being sung by symphony choirs and classically trained singers instead of Sawano's stable of J-rock/pop singers so it actually sounds cool instead of silly. Well Manicured Man fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 22:12
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EDIT: Ack, Double Post, ignore. Ah, to salvage my mistake, have another great crazy opera song from 3.33: The Wrath of God in All its Fury https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9aS9bH8f9Q quote:So the wrath of god JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 22:16
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you know speaking of music, i think the best possible summary of Rebuild 4 is that it uses e: wrong song, it was Joy to the World, which isn't quite as loaded an association Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 22:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:you know speaking of music, i think the best possible summary of Rebuild 4 is that it uses Ode to Joy to accentuate a straightforwardly triumphant moment yeah it ruled i cheered
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Aug 25, 2021 22:33
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:you know speaking of music, i think the best possible summary of Rebuild 4 is that it uses Ode to Joy to accentuate a straightforwardly triumphant moment It might be my memory leaving something out, but I mainly remember Joy to the World being used in a triumphant scene. When was Ode to Joy part of a triumphant scene, again?
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Aug 25, 2021 22:39
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chiasaur11 posted:It might be my memory leaving something out, but I mainly remember Joy to the World being used in a triumphant scene. no, you're right, and also admittedly that's not quite as bad lol i should probably give it a rewatch because it also occurs to me that without the meta-narrative reading this ends up being about Shinji talking his dad through committing suicide, a moment which kind of gets buried in all the weird sci-fi poo poo going on, but is really strange and macabre if taken literally instead of as a statement about the franchise being played out i'm just less enthusiastic about this prospect than i've ever been Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 22:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:no, you're right, and also admittedly that's not quite as bad lol ...What? Shinji wasn't expecting Gendo to go to his death. He was planning to die himself as the necessary sacrifice to use the spear. Gendo didn't die to die. He and Yui died to save Shinji. You don't have to pay a pension for a suicide or a martyr, but they're still rather different professions.
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Aug 25, 2021 22:59
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chiasaur11 posted:...What? It's more about Gendo's intentions than Shinji's. What did he go into all of this planning to do?
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Aug 25, 2021 23:01
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I'm just gonna say I don't really get the Shinji as trans thing. Perhaps I just don't have the basis to recognize it, but it really feels like a stretch to me. Non Binary or pan sexual fit better in my head. I certainly would appreciate someone expounding on that idea because I'm kinda missing the hooks for it I guess. e: im sure this has been covered in this thread, but im sure not digging through 300+ pages of it
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Aug 25, 2021 23:08
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's more about Gendo's intentions than Shinji's. What did he go into all of this planning to do? I don’t think it’s that complicated? Gendo kicked off Instrumentality because he’s a pathetic lonely man who cannot endure the thought of being without the one human he has ever deigned to like, then through finally being forced, within Instrumentality, to engage with Shinji as the person he is rather than the weird grief totem Gendo had made him into realizes that all the litany of crimes he committed in his derangement to see Yui again were actually a desecration of all she would have ever wanted for him. This realization leads to the conclusion that he both owes Shinji better and does not really deserve a place in a world free from his Evas and his crimes, thus he stays behind with Yui when Shinji is freed from Instrumentality and from Eva in general.
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Aug 25, 2021 23:10
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Spiritus Nox posted:I don’t think it’s that complicated? Gendo kicked off Instrumentality because he’s a pathetic lonely man who cannot endure the thought of being without the one human he has ever deigned to like, then through finally being forced, within Instrumentality, to engage with Shinji as the person he is rather than the weird grief totem Gendo had made him into realizes that all the litany of crimes he committed in his derangement to see Yui again were actually a desecration of all she would have ever wanted for him. This realization leads to the conclusion that he both owes Shinji better and does not really deserve a place in a world free from his Evas and his crimes, thus he stays behind with Yui when Shinji is freed from Instrumentality and from Eva in general. Yeah, that's weird and macabre. Gendo is basically seeking self-annihilation either way -- there are no individual persons in the original vision of Instrumentality, the one Shinji rejected, and the one Gendo explicitly says he's gunning for in this film. Shinji is urged to talk to his father while he's still alive and the result of that conversation is he talks Gendo down from killing all of humanity to just killing himself, which is... not generally the outcome I'd associate with "talk to your parents while they're still here." It also backs down completely from the message about living with the consequences of your actions and the impossibility of perfect control or foresight that both EoE and Rebuild 3 hammered on, to their credit. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 23:21
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I'm just gonna say I don't really get the Shinji as trans thing. Perhaps I just don't have the basis to recognize it, but it really feels like a stretch to me. Non Binary or pan sexual fit better in my head. I certainly would appreciate someone expounding on that idea because I'm kinda missing the hooks for it I guess. A lot of what Shinji deals with is the perception of what being a man is and why he doesn’t want to be one. This is tied up with lots of things but many people see Shinji as someone struggling with dysphoria and being constantly berated for it by Misato and Asuka in particular. As a result the quick idea is that Shinji is gender non conforming at a minimum. However the problem is Shinji never really expresses a desire to be feminine in the series. He does things that are perceived that way (cooking and cleaning) but the show is also clear that most of the characters don’t conform to strict norms. I would say more but honestly it’ll take me a while. I think the trans reading is a bit of a self read that because the pain of Shinji feels similar to the trans woman’s experience that it kind of seems obvious to us that he could be. But it’s not that simple of a read with rebuild but is arguable with eoe and the tv series. Nonetheless he never sees himself as female but there is something to be said about how what he sees is Rei might be less about her and more about himself.
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Aug 25, 2021 23:34
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, that's weird and macabre. Gendo is basically seeking self-annihilation either way -- there are no individual persons in the original vision of Instrumentality, the one Shinji rejected, and the one Gendo explicitly says he's gunning for in this film. Shinji is urged to talk to his father while he's still alive and the result of that conversation is he talks Gendo down from killing all of humanity to just killing himself, which is... not generally the outcome I'd associate with "talk to your parents while they're still here." Okay for one I think describing what happens as ”Shinji talks his father into suicide” is *wildly* disingenuous- Shinji just wanted to understand Gendo and use that understanding to try and stop Gendo from hurting people. He’s responsible for his own actions, and I don’t think it’s at all strange for a story about Shinji learning that he ultimately has to choose to live his own life not to have Shinji make Gendo make the same choice. So setting the “Shinji makes Gendo kill himself” angle aside, we’re left with the complaint that the villain of the story never wholly shared the story’s expressed values which….yes? One of Eva’s most famous messages is that nobody else can come riding in and just fix your sadness or make your life just obviously worth living, and yet you seem confused that Shinji didn’t do this for Gendo. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 23:36
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Spiritus Nox posted:Okay for one I think describing what happens as ”Shinji talks his father into suicide” is *wildly* disingenuous- Shinji just wanted to understand Gendo and use that understanding to try and stop Gendo from hurting people. He’s responsible for his own actions, and I don’t think it’s at all strange for a story about Shinji learning that he ultimately has to choose to live his own life not to have Shinji make Gendo make the same choice. So setting the “Shinji makes Gendo kill himself” angle aside, we’re left with the complaint that the villain of the story never wholly shared the story’s expressed values which….yes? One of Eva’s most famous messages is that nobody else can come riding in and just fix your sadness or make your life just obviously worth living, and yet you seem confused that Shinji didn’t do this for Gendo. I said "talks him through" it, not "talks him into it" -- that wasn't an accidental or sloppy choice of words. I'm talking about framing, not moral culpability. When Gendo experiences Instrumentality in EoE as a just and violent punishment for his actions, it's a sad and pathetic moment -- his perception of this outcome as what he had coming is a reflection on how twisted he is as a person, how much he's given up. He was never unaware that he was hurting Shinji or that he owed him better, he just didn't do it anyways; making that same idea into a realization in Rebuild, something he didn't see before, is going backwards. In Rebuild 3+1, his self-annihilation is instead cast as atonement, and the fact that he does it all right in front of his son is treated as closure rather than, like, somewhere between tragic, cruel, and cowardly. And that's not even getting into Yui cheerfully going along with it. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Aug 26, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2021 00:00
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I said "talks him through" it, not "talks him into it" -- that wasn't an accidental or sloppy choice of words. I'm talking about framing, not moral culpability. When Gendo experiences Instrumentality in EoE as just and violent a punishment for his actions, it's a sad and pathetic moment -- his perception of this outcome as what he had coming is a reflection on how twisted he is as a person, how much he's given up. He was never unaware that he was hurting Shinji or that he owed him better, he just didn't do it anyways; making that same idea into a realization in Rebuild, something he didn't see before, is going backwards. He doesn't get Instrumentality in EoE, though. He just dies. That's the punishment. He's the one person denied heaven. He realizes the weight of his actions in that moment, then gets his head bit off. And the last moment for Gendo and Yui is an act of parental self-sacrifice. Again, the goal is saving Shinji, and the secondary goal is being together. Dying is a consequence, not a goal. In their last moments, Shinji's parents finally are able to show him the love he hasn't been able to see for most of his life.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:08
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chiasaur11 posted:And the last moment for Gendo and Yui is an act of parental self-sacrifice. Again, the goal is saving Shinji, and the secondary goal is being together. Dying is a consequence, not a goal. I'd add that it's also a sacrifice made necessary by Gendo's own actions. He's, in at least a small way, finally making the choice Shinji makes when he chooses to pilot in 3.0+1.0 - to take agency not for personal fulfilment or validation but to attempt to repair damage he himself inflicted.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:13
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chiasaur11 posted:He doesn't get Instrumentality in EoE, though. He just dies. That's the punishment. He's the one person denied heaven. Instrumentality isn't heaven. In fact if you're working off the premise that there's much of a difference between Instrumentality and death at all, we're not on the same page.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Instrumentality isn't heaven. In fact if you're working off the premise that there's much of a difference between Instrumentality and death at all, we're not on the same page. At this point, I'm not sure you opened the right book.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:41
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I think the distinction between Instrumentality and Heaven is less material than the key fact that Gendo desired it and was denied - in much the same way that he was on course to be denied his reunion with Yui in 3.0+1.0
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Aug 26, 2021 00:46
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I don't think he was denied it in EoE at all (I mean, apart from Shinji aborting the process, but that comes later) -- he's taken bodily into Unit-01 by an apparition of someone he loved. It makes much more sense as a variation of how several of the bridge crew saw apparitions of people they loved (notably, however, something more like their projected internal image of those people than those people as they actually are). It's not like Unit-01 is actually physically present there to eat him; the process is just somewhat more traumatic due to his self-loathing.
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Aug 26, 2021 00:54
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chiasaur11 posted:At this point, I'm not sure you opened the right book. lol
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Aug 26, 2021 00:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't think he was denied it in EoE at all (I mean, apart from Shinji aborting the process, but that comes later) -- he's taken bodily into Unit-01 by an apparition of someone he loved. It makes much more sense as a variation of how several of the bridge crew saw apparitions of people they loved (notably, however, something more like their projected internal image of those people than those people as they actually are). It's not like Unit-01 is actually physically present there to eat him; the process is just somewhat more traumatic due to his self-loathing. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Anno said happened. Gendo had a traumatic Instrumentality process because he was that deeply hosed up of a person, but it still ultimately counted. He's a non-factor from that point forward for the rest of the movie because he's gone through ego death and no longer exists like the rest of humanity aside from Shinji, Yui, and Rei. His entire reunion with Yui was her showing up going "You were a real piece of poo poo, you know that?" and him going "Maybe I shouldn't have done this..." and them CHOMP.
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Aug 26, 2021 01:02
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The scene with Gendo and Shinji was not him coaching his dad through suicide. It was a genuine heartfelt expression of the person Gendo is presented to Shinji for the first time in his life, and Shinji was allowed to understand the person that Gendo was. It was literally "A son comes to understand that his father is a fallible, lonely, mortal man" and it isn't about forgiveness or excusive his behavior, just understanding of what made this man who he was and why it had such a tremendous impact on Shinji's life. It's part of coming to terms with an abusive parent.
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Aug 26, 2021 01:03
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ImpAtom posted:The scene with Gendo and Shinji was not him coaching his dad through suicide. It was a genuine heartfelt expression of the person Gendo is presented to Shinji for the first time in his life, and Shinji was allowed to understand the person that Gendo was. It was literally "A son comes to understand that his father is a fallible, lonely, mortal man" and it isn't about forgiveness or excusive his behavior, just understanding of what made this man who he was and why it had such a tremendous impact on Shinji's life. It's part of coming to terms with an abusive parent. Anyone who missed this completely was probably lucky enough to never have even a mildly tense relationship with their parents or parental figures in their life.
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Aug 26, 2021 01:12
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