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Ulf posted:traditionally you are not supposed to keep the accents on capitals in French (but this is changing). are you sure? most people don't write them cause it's a pain to do so with an azerty keyboard. but, in theory, accents are a part of properly written French and there's no reason capitals should be exempted.
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Aug 31, 2021 07:31
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when windows is set to norway as region, it treats aa as a single character in some contexts (because it’s an official way of writing å in systems with pure ascii) this leads to some funny things, like files beginning with aa sorted after all other alphabet characters and windows notepad will be unable to find the character a in a sequence of an even number of a’s
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Aug 31, 2021 08:04
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Ulf posted:forgot to answer the specific question about French vs German capitalization rules. really it’s french vs everyone else in this case but every locale has quirks like this. Dutch, even though it's a Germanic language, uses the same rules as French for accented capitals. As in, you're not supposed to use them on capital letters. (Maybe because of Napoleon who tf knows)
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Aug 31, 2021 08:14
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Bourricot posted:are you sure? most people don't write them cause it's a pain to do so with an azerty keyboard. but, in theory, accents are a part of properly written French and there's no reason capitals should be exempted. in practice many French writers omit accents for capital letters. it’s the common case (ha!) in France, though the Académie française says you should use them. (in Québec they’re more commonly included, because they are more sticklery about language rules than are the actual French)
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Aug 31, 2021 08:23
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ymgve posted:when windows is set to norway as region, it treats aa as a single character in some contexts (because it’s an official way of writing å in systems with pure ascii) yeah it can get a little weird on macos too, but i dont think its ever bit me in the rear end quote:a 4 results when searching for 'a' (only finds the 3rd a in 'aaa', ä is equivalent to æ and doesnt match):  3 results when searching for 'å' (only finds the first two a's in 'aaa'):  e: fun fact, "so that" used to be spelled 'saaat', ie. 'saa-at' (now spelled 'så at') Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 08:37
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Subjunctive posted:in practice many French writers omit accents for capital letters. it’s the common case (ha!) in France, though the Académie française says you should use them. Subjunctive posted:(in Québec they’re more commonly included, because they are more sticklery about language rules than are the actual French)
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Aug 31, 2021 08:37
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Carthag Tuek posted:yeah it can get a little weird on macos too, but i dont think its ever bit me in the rear end "aaaaaaaaaa" is conveniently also my response to having to think about the finer points of text transformation and character encoding
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Aug 31, 2021 08:38
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ymgve posted:when windows is set to norway as region, it treats aa as a single character in some contexts (because it’s an official way of writing å in systems with pure ascii) sucks if your name is aaron
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Aug 31, 2021 08:49
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There is no real capital form of the German sz character ( ß ). Well, since 2017 there is one but it doesn't see much use: ẞ Now, the rule is that when your font has no ß available, use ss instead, and same when capitalizing a word with an ß. (Do not use B, Scheiße and Scheibe aren't the same word). This can lead to slightly weird situations in some cases, because the ß is used after a vowel with a long pronounciation while ss is used after a vowel with a short pronounciation. The sentences "Ich trinke Alkohol in Maßen" (I drink alcohol in moderation) and "Ich trinke Alkohol in Massen" (I drink alcohol in bulk) both get capitalized to "ICH TRINKE ALKOHOL IN MASSEN", and the meaning becomes ambiguous.
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Aug 31, 2021 11:43
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French omitting accents on capitals is mostly a relic of typewriters not handling them properly, and it is correct to require them now that technology can do it right. it is in fact one example of how poor technical support for actual world requirements can influence the real world to adjust to its bad tech.
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Aug 31, 2021 12:33
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MononcQc posted:French omitting accents on capitals is mostly a relic of typewriters not handling them properly, and it is correct to require them now that technology can do it right. it is in fact one example of how poor technical support for actual world requirements can influence the real world to adjust to its bad tech.
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Aug 31, 2021 12:36
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evil_bunnY posted:99% of the French don't even handwrite accented capitals. Uppercase letters were accented consistently starting with the middle ages when standardization came up. The printing press had fixed size characters which made uppercase accented letters trickier, but they handled them by engraving smaller uppercase letters with diacriticals on top. Later printing machines were tricked by using above-row letters which the accents in their lower bleeding space, which let them be superposed to the capital underneath and giving normal-sized accented letters. The total removal of accents on upper case letter came with typewriters of English manufacturing (monotypes and linotypes) starting in the late 1800s, which wouldn't handle them at all and had no way to make these special cases. There always were problems for title words like 'A MAN MURDERED' or 'A MAN MURDERS' where the past tense is 'TUÉ' and the present tense is 'TUE' and where removing the accent changes the whole meaning of the sentence (from murdered to murderer). Other famous ones are 'GISCARD A LA BARRE' ('Giscard is in control') and 'GISCARD À LA BARRE' ('Giscard is testifying at a trial'), which became an issue for a French presidential election in the 70s. For standard typewriters, it involved manually going backwards, adjusting your line height, and typing the accent above the proper letters, and most people couldn't be arsed to do it (the same way they may not go back and accent some letters when writing cursive full speed if it didn't impact word meaning) Essentially, cheap printers dropped the accents and careful ones kept them, but over decades of industrialized printing and presses and typewriting and even computers that wouldn't support proper accenting, the whole French sphere more or less adjusted and said "you know what? Fine, don't accent on capitals anymore" because it was messy and complicated to do on a technical level. This got internalized by most people writing over generations, which in turn, made people not sure they should use uppercase accents when they finally could with computers supporting non-English languages. I grew up being taught that accent on capitals are not required unless they alter meaning, even when writing by hand in school, because that's simpler than being taught more sets of rules (which French already has plenty of). But with technology finally making it easy, a couple of centuries later, most significant French standardization bodies are pushing for it and asking for accented capitals to be the only way to go. MononcQc fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 12:55
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evil_bunnY posted:The academy is a bunch of grumpy old white sticklers and nobody gives much of a poo poo about what they say. yeah if there's one thing I know about french it's that quebec is way more into it (and assholes about it) than france itself and that's hilarious
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Aug 31, 2021 14:00
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MononcQc posted:French omitting accents on capitals is mostly a relic of typewriters not handling them properly, and it is correct to require them now that technology can do it right. it is in fact one example of how poor technical support for actual world requirements can influence the real world to adjust to its bad tech. i hope nobody's still being taught to double space after periods or put end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks
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Aug 31, 2021 14:04
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non-english languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases.
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Aug 31, 2021 14:09
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Shaggar posted:non-spanish languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases.
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Aug 31, 2021 14:12
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Shaggar posted:Ikke-skandinaviske sprog bør bare opgives snarere end at forsøge at imødekomme alle deres dumme, meningsløse kant tilfælde. i'll never not lol at machine translation
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Aug 31, 2021 14:17
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Shame Boy posted:i hope nobody's still being taught to double space after periods Shame Boy posted:or put end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks
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Aug 31, 2021 14:18
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Shaggar posted:non-english languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases. gå jävla dig själv
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Aug 31, 2021 14:24
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i suppose if your language can be represented as a subset of english characters than it can stay
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Aug 31, 2021 14:25
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i'm glad the anglo empires are in decline
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Aug 31, 2021 14:26
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Shame Boy posted:i hope nobody's still being taught to double space after periods or put end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks is the correct way to do it in latvian
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Aug 31, 2021 14:27
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cinci zoo sniper posted:end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks is the correct way to do it in latvian. ftfy
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Aug 31, 2021 14:37
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Shaggar posted:i suppose if your language can be represented as a subset of english characters than it can stay curiously this doesn't include english
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Aug 31, 2021 14:51
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So uh... is this thread remarkably linguistically diverse (for a US message board), are polyglots overrepresented in the security community, or what? This is all super interesting to me, but this is not the subforum where I expected to read it. Shame Boy posted:put end of sentence punctuation inside quote marks I only recently learned that this is no longer/was never the case and it feels SO GOOD to move that fuckin period to the end of the sentence where it belongs.
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Aug 31, 2021 16:32
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BrianRx posted:So uh... is this thread remarkably linguistically diverse (for a US message board), are polyglots overrepresented in the security community, or what? This is all super interesting to me, but this is not the subforum where I expected to read it. SA is an international board, even if we are based in the US. Its a mistake to assume people here are American, and I would guess maybe 50% of the board is. Lots of Canadians
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Aug 31, 2021 16:37
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BrianRx posted:So uh... is this thread remarkably linguistically diverse (for a US message board), are polyglots overrepresented in the security community, or what? This is all super interesting to me, but this is not the subforum where I expected to read it. this entire conversation took place during eu office hours, whom do you expect to post more
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Aug 31, 2021 16:38
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end-of-sentence punctuation inside quotes is an American thing. afaik euro/british english has always done it the better way. i dont know if kids are still taught to put the punctuation inside the quotes, but that's definitely what was taught when i was in high school. i generally put punctuation inside the quotes if the quote's punctuation matches the surrounding sentence's punctuation. if the quote's punctuation is different and the surrounding sentence's punctuation is a period, i use the quote's punctuation (inside the quotes obviously). otherwise, drop the quote's punctuation and put the surrounding sentence's puncuation outside the quote what i do is probably the worst of all possible worlds tbh but here we are
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Aug 31, 2021 16:53
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Achmed Jones posted:end-of-sentence punctuation inside quotes is an American thing. afaik euro/british english has always done it the better way. it's not really an american thing it's a "typewriters will explode if you do it the other way" thing that got stripped of its context and stuck around as a false rule of the language e: actually i think it might have been that linotype machines would sometimes have the period snap off if it was at the end or something like that, so people saw it in newspapers and newspaper style guides and then it just became A Thing
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Aug 31, 2021 16:55
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ive litterrally never heard of end of sentence punctuation in quotes.
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Aug 31, 2021 16:55
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well yes, most people don't say the punctuation when they speak
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Aug 31, 2021 16:58
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He retorted with the old standby, "That's what she said."
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Aug 31, 2021 17:02
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according to wikipedia it is in fact known as "american style", so i guess i'm wrong, though i swear i read that linotype thing somewhere too
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Aug 31, 2021 17:02
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Shaggar posted:non-english languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases. what the gently caress is this, shaggar
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Aug 31, 2021 17:18
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it got adopted into "American style" but it was originally because publishers / typesetters thought it looked "more balanced" / "more pleasing". these days we're moving to "British style" and soon it'll be a relic like double-spacing and New Yorker diaereses. Shaggar posted:non-english languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases. i think i i18n-pilled shaggar
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Aug 31, 2021 17:19
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i was taught the punctuation inside quotes thing but i didn't do it because it's wrongMononcQc posted:French omitting accents on capitals is mostly a relic of typewriters not handling them properly, and it is correct to require them now that technology can do it right. it is in fact one example of how poor technical support for actual world requirements can influence the real world to adjust to its bad tech. i wonder if there's a similar thing on SA where some emotes end up not used in yospos as often as in grey forums for technical reasons 
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Aug 31, 2021 17:19
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i typed "hunter2." and it didn't work!
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Aug 31, 2021 17:25
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Shaggar posted:non-english languages should just be abandoned rather than trying to cater to all their stupid, pointless edge cases. English, a language famously free of edge cases.
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Aug 31, 2021 17:29
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in terms of characters yes. in terms of grammar obviously its a mess but thats a level 8 problem
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Aug 31, 2021 17:32
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BrianRx posted:So uh... is this thread remarkably linguistically diverse (for a US message board), are polyglots overrepresented in the security community, or what? This is all super interesting to me, but this is not the subforum where I expected to read it. Internationalization is very much on topic for the security thread . Ulf fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 17:35
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