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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Sure - YA fiction usually doesn't depict thousands of people being exploded and ground up into pieces by magic threshers. I mean, maybe not that specific death. But hell, Animorphs is often referred to as 'children's books' and the first book has a heroic figure being torn apart and eaten alive in front of the little kid protagonists and then it ends with their attempt to rescue a prison of captives getting all but one of the captives killed including one woman being burned alive in front of them. And the one woman who escapes with them implied to be a woman they meet later who is homeless and believed crazy for by society for what she had seen. And they regularly get cut to pieces and violently murder tons of people and aliens even when they're trying not to. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Cadsuane is the crone archetype. Min, aviendha, and Elaine are modeled on the companionate / passionate/ romantic love type model. Also blonde redhead brunette you see in anime. I wasn't aware Archie was anime. Libluini posted:From what I've seen, the difference is in YA more people are brutally murdered Pretty much.
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Sep 7, 2021 15:35
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Cryte Lynn posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKNOy0FV6IM It's really weird to me how there's apparently multiple Youtube channels whose focus seems to be 99% Wheel of Time related content.
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Sep 7, 2021 15:41
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JOHN SKELETON posted:
I love the series, it's a great series (but not above critique), but there exist some people who have para-social relationships with the characters.
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Sep 7, 2021 16:01
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Kchama posted:
Betty and Veronica and who? Wait is Archie aviendha in this scenario
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Sep 7, 2021 16:03
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You have great toh, Jughead Jones.
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Sep 7, 2021 16:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Betty and Veronica and who? 
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Sep 7, 2021 16:20
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Betty and Veronica and who? They introduced a redhead for a while in the 80's named Cheryl Blossom who probably pops up about as much as Superman's weird mermaid girlfriend did.
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Sep 7, 2021 18:40
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seaborgium posted:Did Rand really coerce them into it? I never got that when reading it. The Pattern certainly forced it, but he seemed like any other horny teenager who was confused as gently caress. It's been a few years, so maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I remember it he was being a child about relationships and refused to be monogamous with anyone so eventually they just decided they were OK with a poly situation and went with it. Which is not the same as enthusiastically and intentionally entering into a polyamorous relationship. Also he was actively insane for most of this and probably not good for a relationship with anyone.
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Sep 7, 2021 21:50
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He realized he loved all 3 women and was pretty distraught about it. That's very understandable considering he comes from a very conservative strictly monogamous culture that insofar as 'sin' exists would consider that to be a really bad sinful thing. I don't think Rand was being "a child" about it, I think he was trying to uphold his morals within the context through which he understood them. I don't think any of the women enthusiastically wanted a weird relationship like that, but when Fate and Destiny are involved you do what you gotta do.
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Sep 7, 2021 22:31
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How are u posted:He realized he loved all 3 women and was pretty distraught about it. That's very understandable considering he comes from a very conservative strictly monogamous culture that insofar as 'sin' exists would consider that to be a really bad sinful thing. "I love everyone I have sex with" is pretty immature, and a conservative monogamous culture that probably stigmatized premarital sex probably told him that he must be like that. It's not all his fault but it's also not a inescapable as one matures. That's not a healthy view of sex and love. It doesn't sound much different from a guy who enters into a sexual relationship that is nominally monogamous and then says "I'm poly it's just my identity and you need to be OK with it" when he's found sleeping around, which is not an uncommon trope among men who want to be have multiple partners regardless of their partners feelings. "You do what you gotta do" when when talking about a coercive sexual relationships is a gross statement. I realize we're talking about reincarnated space jesus or whatever here but if we're going to look at relationships through a critical lens, there you go.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:00
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Jaxyon posted:"I love everyone I have sex with" is pretty immature that's not the order of operations here
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Sep 7, 2021 23:26
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"I love everyone I have sex with" is a pretty common feeling amongst 16-21 year olds or whatever age range Rand & co. happen to be, even if the order of operations were accurate. Ugh, look at these children and young adults, they're sooo immature. 
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Sep 7, 2021 23:35
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Jaxyon posted:"I love everyone I have sex with" is pretty immature, and a conservative monogamous culture that probably stigmatized premarital sex probably told him that he must be like that. It's not all his fault but it's also not a inescapable as one matures. Fer gently caress's sake, it ain't a "coercive sexual relationship." In every case Rand is the one who who keeps saying "I love you, but I'm too dangerous to be around, so you should go away." And eventually they each make the decision that "Yes, there are risks involved, but we understand them and are willing to take those risks." And for that matter, he never goes to any of them and says "welp, I'm poly now, you have to deal with it." The three of them get together, discuss it like adults, and then go to HIM and say "hey, we know you like all three of us, and we all like you too, so we've decided that rather than let this whole thing mess up our relationships, we're going to try sharing you. And hey, we're all busy trying to save the world, so only one of us will have time to be with you at any given time, and sometimes you'll be on your own." Rand certainly isn't some monster imposing himself on three helpless damsels or whatever the gently caress you're picturing.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:42
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lmao rand as a Pushy Poly Guy is such a bad take, if anything the books are desperate to make clear it really isn't his decision at all
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Sep 7, 2021 23:47
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yeah you might want to brush up on it again if it's been a few years by your own admission. i don't think people in this thread fall over themselves to praise the series or anything but over the course of 14 long-rear end books there's a pretty clear picture that's painted and i feel like you're squinting at it in the dark there.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:51
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jng2058 posted:Rand certainly isn't some monster imposing himself on three helpless damsels or whatever the gently caress you're picturing. right back at you, saying that the agreement on the situation wasn't really the 1st choice or super enthusiastic doesn't mean I think the women are helpless here.I'm saying that they basically all agree to continue a situation that they don't like but which was pushed upon them. eke out posted:lmao rand as a Pushy Poly Guy is such a bad take, if anything the books are desperate to make clear it really isn't his decision at all Now who's helpless here? He still has relationships with all 3 women despite talking poo poo about how much he doesn't want to. What people say and what they do are often very different things and that's true in real world relationships. How are u posted:"I love everyone I have sex with" is a pretty common feeling amongst 16-21 year olds or whatever age range Rand & co. happen to be, even if the order of operations were accurate. Rand is 20 at the beginning of the first book. If you're old enough to take wield callandor and run half the world you're old enough to treat sexual relationships in a mature way. 
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Sep 8, 2021 00:00
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Johnny Joestar posted:yeah you might want to brush up on it again if it's been a few years by your own admission. i don't think people in this thread fall over themselves to praise the series or anything but over the course of 14 long-rear end books there's a pretty clear picture that's painted and i feel like you're squinting at it in the dark there. I mean, fair.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:02
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Two of the women care enough about each other to get sister bonded and sharing men is common in Aiel culture so you're being disingenuous to the text.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:03
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When prophecy dictated I was gonna pork your mom I didn't handle it nearly as well as rand tbqh
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Sep 8, 2021 00:04
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Two of the women care enough about each other to get sister bonded and sharing men is common in Aiel culture so you're being disingenuous to the text. At one point Aviendha literally thinks she has to kill Rand because of her toh towards Elayne for sleeping with him. She's literally having anxiety because she also has toh towards Rand. I'm not being disingenuous, I'm trying to look at the whole story not just where it ends up.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:08
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I think it's probably fair to say that to start out with Aviendha was indifferent to the concept, Min was resigned to it, and Elayne was shocked by it. It also seems fair to say that the three of them all sorted out their issues with it, and with each other, before getting any input from Rand, and then informed him what was going to happen. I don't think blaming Rand for any of this is fair.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:15
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Jaxyon posted:At one point Aviendha literally thinks she has to kill Rand because of her toh towards Elayne for sleeping with him correction: she thinks she has toh towards Elayne for sleeping with him, when she promised to watch over him for her her animosity towards Rand during this period was entirely because the Wise Ones were making her promise a great big loving joke, and that was months before she slept with him
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Sep 8, 2021 00:16
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No, she doesn't. She thinks she has to let Elayne kill Avihendha as punishment. Because she betrayed her sister's trust.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:16
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She feels that way because she initially promised Elayne that she would watch him, not fall in love, and Aiel are freaking sticklers for honor so of course she was going to feel like she owed Elayne. And as soon as she presents a knife to Elayne to kill her with, Elayne throws it away and says "hey I love him too, you don't have any toh towards me and I love you as a sister". You're acting like they have no agency at all, and you can argue that they don't since fate has said they will fall in love with Rand but everyone's fate is already decided so no one really has any agency. As far as I remember, Min is the only one who says in her PoVs that she only shares Rand because it's the only way to have him, but that's because she knows what fate has decided for her. And even that begins to fade as she gets to know Elayne and Aviendha, but the story shift away from her PoV and we can only guess from the fact that she's willing to go along with the bonding that she's okay with the situation. In my opinion. You can read the text however you want but these things are semi explored and it's not as cut and dry as each woman being forced to put up with the others, they have their own relationships with each other that make it more complex. ONE YEAR LATER fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:18
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^^^^^^^^^ I figured I'd check because it's been a while, this wiki summary says say's due to the sex https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Lord_of_Chaos/Chapter_19 Colonel Cool posted:It also seems fair to say that the three of them all sorted out their issues with it, and with each other, before getting any input from Rand, and then informed him what was going to happen. I don't think blaming Rand for any of this is fair. So what you're saying here is that Rand is the one pushed into a poly relationship with questionable consent. Which is not any better.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:19
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Jaxyon I think you should probably read the books again if you're going to die on this hill while getting so many basic facts about the plot and characters wrong, friend.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:20
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must keep arguing at all costs, lest i incur toh through my posting cowardice
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Sep 8, 2021 00:21
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It is sorta gross that aiel all have toh fetishes
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Sep 8, 2021 00:23
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:It is sorta gross that aiel all have toh fetishes Min cracks a joke kinda to that effect yeah
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Sep 8, 2021 00:28
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I am absolutely not going to read 14 brick sized books to see whether my half-assed takes on fantasy series harem situation power dynamics is factually correct or not. I'm going to use wiki summaries to check my knowledge of the books.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:30
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If you aren't going to bother fact-checking your half-assed take, have you considered listening to the people telling you that you're full of poo poo?
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Sep 8, 2021 00:32
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Gnoman posted:If you aren't going to bother fact-checking your half-assed take, have you considered listening to the people telling you that you're full of poo poo? I am but a lot of it seems like people disagreeing with interpretation not on facts. Also I did fact check, I posted a book and chapter. Aviendha doesn't start out being OK with the sister-wives thing, she's distressed about having slept with Rand and sister-wives is the solution.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:35
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She has no issues with a sister-wife thing. She has issues with sleeping with Rand without discussing it with Elayne, after Elayne has claimed Rand as hers.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:39
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:When prophecy dictated I was gonna pork your mom I didn't handle it nearly as well as rand tbqh
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Sep 8, 2021 00:43
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Gnoman posted:She has no issues with a sister-wife thing. She has issues with sleeping with Rand without discussing it with Elayne, after Elayne has claimed Rand as hers. Two things about that: 1) That's a good distinction, but not far off my point. This isn't a poly situation that the 4 of them have entered enthusiasticaly, it's a mess of relationships that are resolved into a polydynamic but is a huge source of stress initially. 2) This removes Rands agency. He has sex with all 3 women, and none of them has raped him. Nobody can "claim" rand, and at least one other poster has says they came to him and said "this is how it's going to be" which again removes his input to the situation. I agree it's not explored fully in the books because it's mostly just an author insert of "what if I was fated to have a harem/love quadrangle" You wouldn't be able to keep up with my mom. You'd need 2 more characters just to make up for it. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:45
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the discourse on this series is going to be intolerable
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Sep 8, 2021 00:46
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Jaxyon posted:I am but a lot of it seems like people disagreeing with interpretation not on facts. Ok I'm confused here have you actually read the books and are going to the wiki for a refresher, or are you just going by the wiki? I'm not sure modern western concepts of poly relationships even map onto Rand's whole love nest thing. There's certainly a lot about WoT that's . . . let's say "problematic" because it's nice broad term that can encompass a wide range of things. That said, just to start what do you mean by "consent" in this context? When one member of the quadrangle is saying "hey folks, Fate has Decreed this will happen so we might as well enjoy it" and that person is, in fact, a literal prophet whose prophecies always come to pass, you're sortof layering an additional level onto the consent analysis that doesn't usually get discussed. "What if the literal laws of the universe forced people to actually fall in love with each other" is such a paradox of consent that I don't even know where to begin to attempt to unpack it. In the real world if you hear that sort of line you reach for the phone and you call protective services because you're dealing with a cult but, yknow, here it's true Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:49
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Determinism doesn't have much to do with consent in any ethically meaningful sense, one way or the other. A prophecy is a prediction, not an intention. It is a story about (among many other things) how four people got into a weird polycule. Each of them had their own reasons and their own opinions, none of them was immediately into it, mistakes were made.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok I'm confused here have you actually read the books and are going to the wiki for a refresher, or are you just going by the wiki? Read everything up to Knife of Dreams multiple times(at least 5 full times, I'm not proud) and probably the last 3 maybe 2x each. But it's been a few years and I'm not going to commit the rest of this year to rereading the entire series for the sake of this discussion. If I have facts wrong wiki citations should be enough. quote:I'm not sure modern western concepts of poly relationships even map onto Rand's whole love nest thing. There's certainly a lot about WoT that's . . . let's say "problematic" because it's nice broad term that can encompass a wide range of things. I agree the WoT is a mess of consent, but I think it's interesting to talk about it both using in-world stuff and modern stuff. It's a fantasy series but it's written by an actual person. Like, OK Rand is a ta'veren so strong he warps reality around him. And wouldn't you know, he somehow manages to sleep with every woman he finds attractive and they're all OK with it. The implication there is that his status as a mega-ta'veren has coerced them into a relationship in a way that they possibly would never have been OK with in other circumstances. But take that out of it, and it's still a set of relationships that are pretty weird in terms of enthusiastic consent. How are u posted:I believe Rand had many women that he found attractive throw themselves at him over the course of the books, and he refused their advances. Cairheinen nobles, the darkfriend lady in Rhuidean, etc. Yeah and you can argue that that's also his ta'veren status. But he rejects them, because he gets to sleep with whomever HE wants and the pattern just makes it cool with those he needs to be cool with it. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 01:00
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Jaxyon posted:Like, OK Rand is a ta'veren so strong he warps reality around him. And wouldn't you know, he somehow manages to sleep with every woman he finds attractive and they're all OK with it. The implication there is that his status as a mega-ta'veren has coerced them into a relationship in a way that they possibly would never have been OK with in other circumstances. I believe Rand had many women that he found attractive throw themselves at him over the course of the books, and he refused their advances. Cairheinen nobles, the darkfriend lady in Rhuidean, etc.
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Sep 8, 2021 01:07
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