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TheFluff posted:It's been a very long time since I read the books but my take was always that Jordan probably tried to rationalize/explain channeling a bit more than he probably should have. All the details lead to rules lawyering and I don't know if that was necessarily intended. The one thing I'd say is necessary is things like "as well have a bird teach a fish how to fly, or a bird how to swim", and how weaves get way more powerful having men and women work together (and all the reasons why neither sex is eager to do that). Or how male Traveling is like boring a hole through the Pattern while female is bringing both locations together. The whole theme of "men and women are fundamentally different and yet the same, but only reach their full potential together." Which of course has the whole gender essentialism problems we've discussed to death but I think there are ways around that. I'd even change some things to follow that theme, like men can only Travel to ground they know well while women can only go from ground they know - and using the trick of channeling to learn fast is best achieved alternating men and women. Also I've always thought of channeling and weaving and the Pattern as the same thing - you're using the fundamental threads of creation and weaving a detail into the Pattern itself, using the same Source that drives the wheel spinning the lace of an Age.
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Sep 18, 2021 02:22
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Man, Lord of Chaos rules so hard. I like how if you gloss over a sentence or two you'll miss things like rand killing a warder with his bare hands, then maiming the other so badly with the first guy's sword he dies upon the Healing attempt
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Sep 18, 2021 16:08
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TheFluff posted:. Maybe this is revealing me as a hyper nerd but I love it when writers go into the weeds regarding magic poo poo. Saying boom this is magic I find uninteresting. It having rules, structures, hacks, or even better, a thematic expression of what the book is trying to express, ala Earthsea, is def my poo poo. Hell a somewhat mediocre series that builds itself on an inventive and interesting expression of the harsh world its depicting, like that series I can't remember where magic users directly get their advanced abilities from tattooing and maiming others they collect so that other magic users won't kill them and make them impotent, makes them interesting in turn E: it's loving Runelords Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 16:36
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Also DBZ never explained poo poo about why these people had those powers other than training
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Sep 18, 2021 16:37
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Also dragon ball z was kick-rear end so I don't get the problem with comparing stuff to it
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Sep 18, 2021 18:21
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TheFluff posted:While complex systems are appealing to nerds, I honestly think rationalizing magic too much takes away from the narrative. It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. If you lean too heavily into the rules approach you end up with poo poo like DBZ power levels, and if you go even further you finally you end up in the ninth circle of hell - the LitRPG. I think both heavily explained magic, as well as more "mysterious" magic can work very well. But they must fit the story. Magic being something unexplained that just some wizards did works very well in Lord of the Rings and the First Law books, for example. Thoroughly explained magic makes some of the plot twist in Brandon Sanderson's books obvious in hindsight, but still mindblowing when you first read them. "Technobabble" overexplained magic fails in the Sword of Truth books (like so many else in the series), while Rothfuss writes books that have both detailed explanation (Sympathy) and work in the classical mystical way (Naming), and he falls flat with both. WoT I think necessitates going from a fairly unexplained magic system to becoming quite a bit more technical once our PoV characters reach the relevant stages in their lives. First they were outsiders seeing the Aes Sedai (and Forsaken) do amazing stuff, then they became the mages themselves and obviously had very different internal thoughts about channeling.
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Sep 18, 2021 20:02
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POWER CHARTS https://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-wheel-of-time-companion-strength-chart-of-major-channelers/
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Sep 18, 2021 21:30
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Torrannor posted:I think both heavily explained magic, as well as more "mysterious" magic can work very well. But they must fit the story. Magic being something unexplained that just some wizards did works very well in Lord of the Rings and the First Law books, for example. Thoroughly explained magic makes some of the plot twist in Brandon Sanderson's books obvious in hindsight, but still mindblowing when you first read them. In WoT, magic is a part of the world, and is used by characters as a tool to accomplish goals. The text tells us about that tool, and how it's used, and we learn from character what the experience of using that tool is like. We see new uses of it as finding new ways to use an existing tool, like chainsaws being used to make sculptures instead of just chopping down trees. The possibility was always there, but someone was the first to do it, and afterwards, it becomes another task that tool can accomplish. In the Sword of Truth series, magic is deux ex machina. It simply does what is necessary for the plot. There's no connection to previous uses, no growth or consistent restrictions. Just the need for something to be solved by magic allows magic to solve that problem.
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Sep 18, 2021 21:46
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Brolander posted:POWER CHARTS not this again
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Sep 19, 2021 02:28
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He's over two wives!!!!!
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Sep 19, 2021 02:47
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jetz0r posted:In WoT, magic is a part of the world, and is used by characters as a tool to accomplish goals. The text tells us about that tool, and how it's used, and we learn from character what the experience of using that tool is like. We see new uses of it as finding new ways to use an existing tool, like chainsaws being used to make sculptures instead of just chopping down trees. The possibility was always there, but someone was the first to do it, and afterwards, it becomes another task that tool can accomplish. LeGuin wrote a scathing critique of poor Katherine Kurtz over the Deryni books because she felt the magic in it wasn't magical enough, but just mechanics -- quote:“Let us consider Elfland as a great national park, a vast and beautiful place where a person goes by himself, on foot, to get in touch with reality in a special, private, profound fashion. But what happens when it is considered merely as a place to "get away to"? "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie" There's a certain value in not explaining things too much -- in LeGuin and Tolkien and Dunsany you get a sign and a symbol and the magic flashes through the reader like the true lightning, stunning, electrifying, breathless. And some of that can be lost in the more "mechanical" modern fantasy. But Jordan was trained as a nuclear engineer and he had a scientific mind, and the approach he took works for purposes of the story he's trying to tell -- at first it's all Wow! Such Magic! but as the story progresses the characters gain mastery and it all fits and looking backward you can say "oh, all the clues were there the whole time, that's how it works." Which is its own kind of fun.
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Sep 19, 2021 03:59
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From a narrative perspective, what magic can be depends what you want it to do. If you want it to be mysterious and terrifying you don't need to know exactly how someone pulls off a growing-huge illusion or two channelers have a battle whose only point for the focus character is "I don't want to be anywhere near here." The mechanics need more description when the focus character is using it to solve problems, or it's a tactical center of a world-spanning war. Or maybe they don't, if you do it right and know that's what you're doing.
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Sep 19, 2021 05:47
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Barreft posted:not this again what was has come again. quantifying=enjoyment!
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Sep 19, 2021 06:07
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Bruceski posted:From a narrative perspective, what magic can be depends what you want it to do. If you want it to be mysterious and terrifying you don't need to know exactly how someone pulls off a growing-huge illusion or two channelers have a battle whose only point for the focus character is "I don't want to be anywhere near here." The mechanics need more description when the focus character is using it to solve problems, or it's a tactical center of a world-spanning war. Or maybe they don't, if you do it right and know that's what you're doing. Understanding decreases fear, and increases the satisfaction of discovery and creative application or bending of the rules. Brandon Sanderson has extremely rigorous rules around his magic systems and I find it amazingly satisfying when characters do something incredible and I think to myself "yeah, that would totally work... why didn't I think of that?" It promotes a kind of rigorous realism to the fantasy that makes it feel grounded. It also avoids the bullshit deus-ex-machina of pulling a convenient magic trick out of nowhere. Benedict Jacka is another one where you have a guy with a very limited bag of tricks, but he exploits those to the max and punches way above his weight because people underestimate him, and that wouldn't work unless rules were clearly established and enforced. The cost of this is that magic can seem less fantastical, weird, and fearsome if you know what's going on all the time. So which one you use will depend entirely on what story you're trying to tell. Edit: 
DarkHorse fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Sep 19, 2021 |
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Sep 19, 2021 14:10
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Shageletic posted:Maybe this is revealing me as a hyper nerd but I love it when writers go into the weeds regarding magic poo poo. Saying boom this is magic I find uninteresting. what? earthsea is completely the opposite of wot in every way, including the magic system
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Sep 20, 2021 11:20
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...wtf? the Mat actor left? e: They recast Mat for season 2, this is pretty bad. It's not like recasting the Mountain Barreft fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 00:37
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Interested to see what the reason for that is when it inevitably leaks.
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Sep 21, 2021 00:45
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https://tinyurl.com/h9883u64
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Sep 21, 2021 00:50
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yeah, as said in the show thread there's no note of why exactly it's happening. could be any number of reasons, so mostly we just have to wait and see what comes out sooner or later
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Sep 21, 2021 00:52
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maybe he didn't like the hat Donal Finn sounds like an emonds fielder name already so, good sign Brolander fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 02:14
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Barreft posted:...wtf? the Mat actor left?  Hopefully whatever it was doesn't derail the show. I wonder if this will affect any last minute editing choices as far as emphasizing Mat's story in S1.
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Sep 21, 2021 02:16
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Brolander posted:maybe he didn't like the hat quote:In early drafts of The Eye of the World, Dannil accompanies Moiraine, Lan, and the other main characters when they leave Emond's Field. When Robert Jordan's wife and editor, Harriet McDougal, asked him why this character had been included in the story but rarely said or did anything, he said he had plans for Dannil "around book 5." Harriet convinced him that the readers wouldn't have the patience to continue reading a novel with boring characters, and the series might never reach that point. He would later admit to Harriet that he was embarrassed at how easy it was to excise Dannil from the story. In A Memory of Light, when Dannil comments to Perrin that he thinks of what it might have been like to leave the village with them, it is a deliberate reference to the character's original conception.
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Sep 21, 2021 02:41
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If you HAVE to lose Mat's actor, having it happen early so that Harris plays Dagger Mat and Finn plays Fortune's Fool Mat is probably the best case scenario...since they're practically different characters. I mean obviously it sucks, but it isn't as bad as it could have been. 
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Sep 21, 2021 02:43
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Dont worry they'll replace him with viggo Mortensen Mortensen
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Sep 21, 2021 03:02
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jng2058 posted:If you HAVE to lose Mat's actor, having it happen early so that Harris plays Dagger Mat and Finn plays Fortune's Fool Mat is probably the best case scenario...since they're practically different characters. It's pretty bad. The whole first season sets his story arc up. I guess they can use the dagger to corrupt him visually and the new guy looks kinda like him
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Sep 21, 2021 03:33
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Jaxyon posted:Dont worry they'll replace him with viggo Mortensen Mortensen Mortensen would be a great Thom.
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Sep 21, 2021 03:36
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It's weird and not great but they're obviously dropping the news now when it'll do the least damage.
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Sep 21, 2021 03:40
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ChubbyChecker posted:what? earthsea is completely the opposite of wot in every way, including the magic system How much Le Guin delves into naming and the concept of truth and lies as being the thematic foundation of the series as well as its magic system is what I am comparing WoT too. It's not just a wizard doing fireballs just because. It's because there's a system, a philosophy, hell a moral point.
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Sep 21, 2021 03:42
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"The Car'a'Car is no wetlander KIA"
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Sep 21, 2021 03:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's weird and not great but they're obviously dropping the news now when it'll do the least damage. Honestly I'm not sure this was the time it'd do the least damage, it's pretty deflating going into the first season knowing that one of the main characters has already been replaced. I'd personally rather have found out between seasons (but I guess it was probably bound to leak when he's absent from any publicity stuff or something). I wonder if that was part of their decision to deemphasize the boys in the trailer. I dunno poo poo about how TV works but I also wonder if they might have done some stuff in editing or shot a few more scenes to deemphasize his role. He doesn't have much to do in the first book AFAIK besides being a reluctant tag-along and getting the moody dagger. Guess it depends when they found out about this.
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Sep 21, 2021 04:37
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Rip WoT show. Over before it started
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Sep 21, 2021 05:26
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ultimately it could just be some poo poo like him not vibing well with the rest of the cast, lol given mat's lack of a real, defined role for a bit in the beginning maybe they decided to cut their losses with the actor and just go with someone else who was probably one of the close runner-ups in auditions. assuming that a full run of the series will probably have a few seasons under it's belt then maybe in the theoretical future of the show the different guy in only season 1 will barely be of note. but i guess we won't know until anything else at all comes out about it, anyways
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Sep 21, 2021 06:40
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Dumbledore's actor changed between films, and it never really bothered me. I want this show to be good, and I won't be discouraged by a recast, even if it's one of the core characters.
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Sep 21, 2021 07:38
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Torrannor posted:Dumbledore's actor changed between films, and it never really bothered me. I want this show to be good, and I won't be discouraged by a recast, even if it's one of the core characters. Loretta Swit played Christine Cagney in the pilot of Cagney and Lacey, but when M*A*S*H was extended for season 10 she had to drop out of a series commitment. Swit was replaced by Meg Foster, who played the role in the first half of C&L season 1 before being replaced by Sharon Gless for the remainder of the show's six year run. It's Sharon Gless who is remembered for playing Cagney.
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Sep 21, 2021 08:53
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Maybe they can just have Mat be knocked out or asleep for the rest of the show like Marty McFly's girlfriend in the sequels
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Sep 21, 2021 12:28
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They'll probably already cover it in the first season, but if the Mat gets Healed from the dagger's influence scene was in the first episode of season 2, they could just hide his face before and during the Healing and then reveal it after and don't acknowledge it aside from Rand and the others giving eachother  glances.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:37
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I'm not really worried about a recast starting in season 2. By season 6 it'll be a silly point of trivia. I'm officially Not Deflated.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:32
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Johnny Joestar posted:ultimately it could just be some poo poo like him not vibing well with the rest of the cast, lol Which would be weird, the 3 boys and Loial's actors seemed pretty buddy-buddy in the filming leaks before the covid shutdown.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:50
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I'm going with sex pest or COVID denier stuff because then I can only be pleasantly surprised when the real reason comes out.
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Sep 21, 2021 15:57
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I think the new guy looks more like my head cannon for Mat anyways. So I'm fine with it.
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Sep 21, 2021 16:10
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