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SuperMechagodzilla posted:[...] Your analysis is “he’s the baddy.” 
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Sep 19, 2021 04:17
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Mandrel posted:yeah I’m not sure you’re supposed to take Smith’s beliefs as gospel any more than you should Morpheus In short, this isn't being stated by just Smith, and you essentially have to disbelieve the entire plot of the sequels in order to come up with some other version of events. The movies are really straightforward on this.
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Sep 19, 2021 08:48
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Smith's interrogation of Morpheus is one thing that can prepare you for interacting with SMG
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Sep 19, 2021 12:35
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perhaps we're asking the wrong questions
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Sep 19, 2021 13:06
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I gave in and decided to read some of the plot spoilers and I'm not sure if anyone else has, but the trailer for the film did confirm them to be correct and so for certain aspects of the leaks that we do not see in the trailer? I find some of it a little odd but I'll keep this in spoilers so only other people who've read the leaks can discuss this if they want to. I'm surprised that Smith is back, and it makes it all the more tragic that things simply could not work out with Hugo's scheduling to have him reprise his role as other key cast members have returned. At the end of the day it doesn't seem that big of a deal since in-universe it can be explained in so many ways (from people choosing their appearance when they jack-in, to Smith himself looking very different when finding his way into the real world in prior movies) but I feel it would have been worth waiting for since apparently this film appears to set up sequels apparently? The leak states that Smith isn't very present but is with the Merovingian so I'm interested to see how that will play out since the film doesn't explore these too much it seems, but leaves it open for future movies. How Smith has managed to survive is quite a head-scratcher however given how the original trilogy concluded. They appear to have revised the death of Morpheus and the thread title is no longer accurate. Apparently he simply died of old age (this seems like a weirder explanation to me) and the 'new' Morpheus is a machine construct that is also an agent?! I cannot wrap my head around that one, but it does sort-of make sense when taking into account... Neil Patrick Harris' character seems to be the big bad, who wants to wrestle control of the Matrix from Neo, hence continuing to feed him blue pills and prevent him from awakening. In the real world, machines and humans appear to have maintained peace so it looks like this is a rogue program once again causing chaos (much like Smith) and Neo needing to stop him after awakening. This may explain the purpose of the new Morpheus, with there being a mutual desire for Neo to awaken and prevent the Matrix from going to hell again like it did when Smith was out of control. Apparently something that also really sticks out is the fight scenes are very different as the original team and stunt coordinators are not involved, so we won't be getting fancy Kung fu which is seemingly quite noticeable when watching. At the same time however, Keanu and Carrie are much older now and I think it would be odd to expect them to perform the same, and the same would apply for Morpheus were Laurence reprising his role. We see this in the trailer with Neo doing his force blasts (don't have a clue what else to call them) rather than fighting traditionally, so I hope that they can still craft some exciting and entertaining fight scenes around this new direction. I didn't see any mention of this in the bullet point list of plot notes in the leak, but apparently there is also a scene (or more?) that will really anger the alt-right red pill anti-woke brigade and I cannot wait for that  I do fear that the film may not get the best reception however given the direction it's going in, which I personally find interesting but has been met with a lot of disappointment from others who have read the leaks, though. At the same time, if you broke down the original Matrix in a similar way it would be easy to assume that would be terrible as well e.g. reading that Neo beats Smith by diving inside him before flying into the sky to RATM's 'Wake Up' blaring would be laughable on paper, but works brilliantly in the film.Some things are quite surprising and a little disappointing (in a nitpicky way, imo) but I'm still excited and looking forward to the movie. Curious on the thoughts of any others who have read the leak as the only thing that really niggles me is wishing they had waited until they could get the full cast needed for the film but in the grand scheme of things I don't think that's too important if handled well.
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Sep 19, 2021 17:02
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I rewatched the first one today and I forgot how terrible a job it does of setting up Trinity falling in love with Neo. They exhange almost zero dialogue that isn't about the main plot throughout the film and they've known each other for like two days. I imagine the Oracle must really have confused people back in the day too.
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Sep 19, 2021 20:40
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fatherboxx posted:Smith's interrogation of Morpheus is one thing that can prepare you for interacting with SMG The ability to read the monologue would probably save a lot of time. Smith’s basic complaint is that his machine masters have put him in an unwinnable situation. He’s programmed to ‘keep the peace’ in a doomed world, as even this simulated Earth is facing eventual ecological catastrophe. The machines are powerless to stop it, because better things aren’t possible by design. (The sequels reveal that Smith, being effectively immortal, has lived through several of these apocalypses.) This is all explicitly ‘off the record’, because the other agents are quite satisfied with the way things are. So the point is that Smith may be a ‘bad person’, but he’s also literally the only character in any of the films who cares about socioeconomic conditions on Earth - even if only to say that it’s really hosed up and he doesn’t like it.
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Sep 19, 2021 21:22
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Smith has zero reason to lie to Morpheus, who is about to die along with Zion. If we suppose that he's feeding false intel to people the Machines are going to exterminate tomorrow, nothing makes sense.
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Sep 19, 2021 21:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRvItdQb6qs
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Sep 19, 2021 21:57
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I forgot that Reloaded and Revolutions originally released six months apart. It feels like that'd be pretty unheard of now - LOTR sort of set the precedent that multi-part movies all filmed at once release a year apart. The only other two parter I can remember releasing so close together was Kill Bill 1/2 - which was around the same time. Maybe another half a year in the oven would have done Revolutions some good.
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Sep 19, 2021 22:58
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Back to the Future 2 and 3 also came out six months apart. They seem to do ok.
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Sep 20, 2021 00:10
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I remember reading that the Wachowski's meant to only have 1 sequel and maybe 1 prequel. Tightening up everything Reloaded and Revolutions into one movie would drop a lot of the fat. I kinda like having them as two very different sequels though. Continuing the trans stuff from the first movie which ended with Neo feeling free and empowered, Reloaded puts up cycles of really ridiculous gatekeeping and disbelief from various 'allies', officials and other 'outsiders' (the various rogue programs like the Merovingian). Revolutions ends up with the main trans characters, Neo and Trinity, needing to sacrifice themselves to try to resolve the political instability that everyone else is causing and/or can't handle themselves.
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Sep 20, 2021 01:20
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I know someone shared it upthread but if you haven't seen the YT Video from Curio, "The Matrix Sequels Are Good, Actually," you should check that out. it's long but it's a very thorough analysis of themes in the films and makes some really solid points.
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Sep 20, 2021 02:31
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Neo's conversation with the oracle in Reloaded, before the burly brawl, is one of the most trans affirming things I've encountered since coming out. "You're not here to make a choice, you've already made it. You're here to understand Why you made it" jivjov fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 02:34
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jivjov posted:Neo's conversation with the oracle in Reloaded, before the burly brawl, is one of the most trans affirming things I've encountered since coming out. Congratulations on coming out  I have only watched the first one since I did. I'm looking forward to when my 4k trilogy arrives and I can watch the set again.
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Sep 20, 2021 05:19
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Shiroc posted:Congratulations on coming out I watched them with some friends via discord over the last few days, and it's been an interesting experience of being much more critical of the sequels pacing and structure, while clicking MUCH harder with the trans allegory stuff
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Sep 20, 2021 05:28
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jivjov posted:I watched them with some friends via discord over the last few days, and it's been an interesting experience of being much more critical of the sequels pacing and structure, while clicking MUCH harder with the trans allegory stuff it's very weird to watch an old film you (presumably) loved as a teenager and finding out Film bad, but actually Film really good in previously unknown way. I'm trying to think of other films like that but the closest I'm coming to is sort of understanding the trade/fascist stuff in the Star wars prequels but that is hardly comparable.
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Sep 20, 2021 12:25
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Halloween Jack posted:Smith has zero reason to lie to Morpheus, who is about to die along with Zion. If we suppose that he's feeding false intel to people the Machines are going to exterminate tomorrow, nothing makes sense. Smith is trying to break Morpheus' spirit so that he will give him his codes to Zion. That gives him reason to lie.
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Sep 20, 2021 19:05
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"I want to kill all your friends so I can quit my lovely job" is a hell of a persuasion technique
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Sep 20, 2021 19:11
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Alhazred posted:Smith is trying to break Morpheus' spirit so that he will give him his codes to Zion. That gives him reason to lie. Ok, so this is where you have to actually read the text. Are you saying the whole monologue is a bizarro-logic opposite-speech where ‘he am not Smith’? If not, then which specific parts are lies?
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Sep 20, 2021 20:54
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Halloween Jack posted:"I want to kill all your friends so I can quit my lovely job" is a hell of a persuasion technique Then he gets fired and sticks around anyway lol
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Sep 20, 2021 20:55
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RBA Starblade posted:Then he gets fired and sticks around anyway lol He hates the Matrix but is secretly afraid of being turned on by it. He loves how stinky Morpheus is.
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Sep 20, 2021 22:00
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The machines have kept re-iterating the Matrix so that they can study the Zion humans' propensity for gross sweaty raves.
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Sep 20, 2021 22:03
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What do they do for water down there anyway? Are they a society of unwash legs much like we are today!?
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Sep 20, 2021 22:21
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they have cameras in there. the matrix is for porn
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Sep 20, 2021 22:47
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Reality is defined by the libido's desire for punishment.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:00
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Oh baby I'm pumped for Matrix 4, gimme that Matrix. Keanu renaissance continues! Just rewatched the trilogy this week, good times. I hadn't rewatched 2 and 3 since 2003, they were a 2 and 3 out of 10 to me back then. At the time I liked 3 a little better than 2, since my expectations were a lot lower etc. This time I liked Matrix Reloaded way way more, really enjoyed it, bumped it from a 2 to a 7. Kind of was able to enjoy the surrealness and quirkiness in almost a little bit of a David Lynch kind of way, and it was capturing my imagination more. And the action, just terrific, Woo Ping rules. And in general Carrie Anne Moss really knocked it out of the park in these, so she's went up to probably my fav character in it. But now 3 was in the tougher spot, since I figured I'd probably really like 3 now since I liked 2 a good bit, but 3 is more like a 5/10 for me. I only mention the numbers here since it took me a good while to figure out what to rate this on letterboxd. Since I'd want to give it a 6 or something so it can be a full turnaround, and just be bam - I dig the Matrix sequels now. But I can't can't quite do it, Revolutions is still pretty troubled to me. The main thing is the dialogue, it so needed another pass, another draft or two. I was able to gel with Reloaded's dialogue a lot more this time, some of it almost in a Lasagna Cat Pipe Strip kind of way, there's a fun to people continually owning eachother with their ponderous conversations etc. By the end of Revolutions though, it felt like they wrote the conversations while they were half-asleep or just on auto-pilot. That rhythm where somebody owns the other person by repeating what they just said backwards, it really overstayed its welcome. Stuff like several times when Lock says "If it were up to me...." and they say "Good thing it's not up to you" and end the scene on it etc. But they already used that one. And it felt like almost every dialogue exchange in the movie was something like this, just doesn't sound natural. Everybody is listening to the bit in the previous person's sentence where they can say it back to them in owning fashion, it gets ridiculous. Like somebody would say "If only I had a taco, I'd feel a lot better about this," then the other person is like "Luckily for us both, I don't care about how you feel, or tacos". I had to drop a couple stars for that, I'm gonna say it folks, Matrix Revolutions has half-assed poorly done dialogue. If this is the hill, I'm dying on it. ...luckily for you Heavy Metal, this isn't a hill... but you are gonna die, everyone dies. - Geez I sure left myself open for that one! Owned me again Matrix! I'm aware of the cruel irony that my long rambly post is in need of a re-do as much as the script of those fine films may have been at times. But you know what else I need... Matrix 4. I think it's gonna rule. Also it has several screenwriters who I think are perhaps gonna keep an eye on shenanigans like that. Yes I know saying shenanigans is a bit too Dane Cook or whatever, listen I'm not the writer here. But anyways, Revolutions did still have a lot of charm. Just, like some other reviewers sum up better, it could've had a lot more Neo, Trinity, and given Morpheus more to do than fill a Chewbacca seat on that Deathstar run thingy. We love those characters, we're uber invested in them, less would be a lot more for those other characters. "Less is more, well... maybe... you're less of you would be more... good." - Agent Smith Esquire But anyways, I enjoyed that rewatch, especially the first two, and I got invested in it. I give a drat, and I think it's beautiful they're bringing it back. Especially the thing about wanting to bring back Neo and Trinity, that is touching and interesting to me. Also, like other people have said, The Matrix is just a lot more intriguing than the real machine world. So much they could do with it. I did like that Trainman guy, the backdoor alley thingies, just some cool stuff to mess around with. And I enjoy that they wax philosophical. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Sep 21, 2021 |
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Sep 21, 2021 05:08
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The Animatrix holds up, too. I've always been convinced there were plenty of stories to tell in the universe.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:13
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I should rewatch that. Yoshiaki Kawajiri is so good. When he flashes that anime strobe light, it's hype time. Matrix 4 must have a Rage Against the Machine song. I think Bullet in the Head would be nice. Also, Hideo Kojima could be consulted, would be good.
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Sep 21, 2021 05:39
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Let Kojima make a Matrix game
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Sep 21, 2021 05:46
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Colonel Whitey posted:Let Kojima make a Matrix game This would be a colossal mindfuck that even the editors would have a hard time understanding.
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Sep 21, 2021 06:20
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https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-think-the-original-matrix-is-pretty
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Sep 21, 2021 07:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, so this is where you have to actually read the text. Are you saying the whole monologue is a bizarro-logic opposite-speech where ‘he am not Smith’?
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Sep 21, 2021 08:05
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The United States posted:https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-think-the-original-matrix-is-pretty
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Sep 21, 2021 08:24
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Martman posted:This person is just too afraid of cringe to embrace corny self-seriousness. Yeah, that's one thing I rather enjoyed about my recent rewatch of the trilogy: The movies just loving go for it. They really commit to their aesthetic and themes, and don't give a drat if it comes off as corny. Everybody who's anyone wears excessive shades and leather, the protector of the Oracle is named after an angel and tests people's kung fu, when Neo dies he's literally in a crucifixion pose emphasized with bright light. It's a fun change of pace compare to the trend of lots of current movies trying to be quippy and self-aware instead.
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Sep 21, 2021 11:21
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Colonel Whitey posted:Let Kojima make a Matrix game Are you mad? He is the last one who should have anything to do with it. He's terrible, or his (recent) works are at least
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Sep 21, 2021 11:41
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codo27 posted:Are you mad? He is the last one who should have anything to do with it. He's terrible, or his (recent) works are at least Not to open a can of worms but no you're wrong.
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Sep 21, 2021 12:27
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Alhazred posted:By the end of the first movie he has gotten his wish. He has left the Matrix and yet he returns. And even if he believes he's right doesn't mean that he is right. He's still a bunch of coding trying to understand humanity. And the end of the trilogy shows that he has a pretty poor understanding. He can't understand why Neo won't just die and hand him the crown. Smith obviously didn’t expect to be blown up at the end of the first film. So your evidence that he’s lying is that he isn’t lying, but he’s arrogant.
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Sep 21, 2021 13:17
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codo27 posted:Are you mad? He is the last one who should have anything to do with it. He's terrible, or his (recent) works are at least Painfully incorrect, just like that godawful screed linked above
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Sep 21, 2021 14:04
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The only real issue I have with the original Matrix is that it really doesn't earn its romance at the end. And the next two movies don't really elaborate on it because they seem to think the first movie already covered that.
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Sep 21, 2021 14:44
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