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ZShakespeare)
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:oh, well, no reason. Like you, personally, yeah don't worry about it. terrorist ambulance posted:lot of angry words to say you don't care And the only reason that post had and angry tone is this: Ron Paul Atreides posted:this is because you think business and government are seperate spheres.
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Sep 25, 2021 16:47
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 17:37 |
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i fly airplanes posted:There are no good sources because the trials in China and all associated evidence were done behind closed doors. Not even Canadian diplomats were allowed in. Just a coincidental quote and PSA here: Don't sleep on the CanPol™ discord, it's a wonderful place that provides oodles of context for many posters in here who barely post or would never otherwise freely express their opinions because they might get probed or banned or otherwise recognized as "totes bonkers".
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Sep 25, 2021 16:53
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yeah Canada should totally start a diplomatic row with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner instead of with the socialist egalitarian Paradise that is China
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Sep 25, 2021 17:11
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Anyways, I don't think canada has any more plan to deal with America's decline any more than America does, and the Huawei lady thing was a good example of how just doing our bit to uphold the empire and hoping it works out may not work in all cases going forward
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Sep 25, 2021 17:12
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Giggs posted:Just a coincidental quote and PSA here: I really should get on that sometime
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Sep 25, 2021 17:13
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half cocaine posted:yeah Canada should totally start a diplomatic row with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner instead of with the socialist egalitarian Paradise that is China I'm not saying Canada had a choice really but it was not a well thought out, strategically sound move. By that point the Trump administration had thoroughly poisoned the well on a whole bunch of international dealings, and whatever your thoughts on China, a directly confrontational stance against them is not good for Canada and the US were the initiating party in this fiasco. terrorist ambulance posted:Anyways, I don't think canada has any more plan to deal with America's decline any more than America does, and the Huawei lady thing was a good example of how just doing our bit to uphold the empire and hoping it works out may not work in all cases going forward Basically this. Worth remembering going forward too, the US prefers others take the blowback from their bullshit and may come a day where that price may not be worth keeping the hegemon satisfied with us.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:17
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Comedy option: Canada still arrests Meng but just for all the poo poo Huawei pulled on Nortel in the 2000s
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Sep 25, 2021 17:23
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Welcome to hostage diplomacy; best be getting used to it.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:26
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Typo posted:I just realized the BQ really really loving wants to get rid of the monarchy LOL I know this is very old but the BQ just very much wants to open the Constitution which to abolish the monarchy you have to do
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Sep 25, 2021 17:34
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:I'm not saying Canada had a choice really but it was not a well thought out, strategically sound move. By that point the Trump administration had thoroughly poisoned the well on a whole bunch of international dealings, and whatever your thoughts on China, a directly confrontational stance against them is not good for Canada and the US were the initiating party in this fiasco. She's pleading guilty, so I'm not sure we can say the extradition request was a complete political hit job. Given that, how does Canada refuse the initial request out-of-hand without violating its treaty obligations? Honestly I can't see how the fallout from that would have been less than it was from doing what we did and going through the legal process. Sucks to be a helpless pawn in the game but we probably made the right move.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:48
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She did what was needed to strike a deal to go home. Don't kid yourself about this everything involved in this is bullshit realpolitik.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:56
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sbaldrick posted:I know this is very old but the BQ just very much wants to open the Constitution which to abolish the monarchy you have to do Isnt Canada ridiculously divided on the monarchy by age group at this point? I could see it happening at some point in the future with or without pressure from the BQ.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:57
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Lassitude posted:She's pleading guilty, so I'm not sure we can say the extradition request was a complete political hit job. Given that, how does Canada refuse the initial request out-of-hand without violating its treaty obligations? Honestly I can't see how the fallout from that would have been less than it was from doing what we did and going through the legal process. Sucks to be a helpless pawn in the game but we probably made the right move. guilty to concealing from HSBC, the bank caught laundering money from drug traffickers knowingly), that a company partnered with Huawei was doing business in Iran, something that was not going to be a problem until Trump blew up the deal signed just 2 years before the US unilaterally reneged on it, after negotiating it. Like, even if you accept the legal argument she was in violation, the US by that point had demonstrated nothing but contempt for 'the rule of law' internationally. Enforcing on their behalf is not a matter of legal principals, it's influence they exert on us. We did the 'right' thing, in that we took the course of action that caused the lease problems to us, which is why I think China didn't implement any trade bans and just took hostages, but there was no high minded principals at work here on either side. The frustrating part of this whole thing is comments clucking about the release of the Michaels proving China never had any real grounds to hold them and this was all political, as though Meng wasn't exactly that too. It's the self deception North Americans have about how we deal with the world, especially the global South and non-white majority nations. I understand why our press and government spin it that way but it's genuinely going to be a problem to dealing with a new global alignment on productive terms, because if Canadians are always constantly sold on the menace and untrustworthyness of China even as we witness the US increasingly become belligerent, this ends in war.
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Sep 25, 2021 17:59
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if you can't see the difference in what happened to Meng vs the Michaels then I don't know what to tell you
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Sep 25, 2021 18:02
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Wistful of Dollars posted:if you can't see the difference in what happened to Meng vs the Michaels then I don't know what to tell you The particulars or individuals do not matter to me. I do not care about the moral dimensions, those don't have any effect on actual international dealings. My central concern is how my country and the extended empire it is part of deals almost entirely in bad faith and with increasing tilt towards open conflict with a nation representing a quarter of the human population, claiming we have the ethical superiority, even as we watch the unraveling of a 2 decade pointless occupation that was part of us totally destroying and destabilizing the middle east. After 4 years of unilateral aggression by the US, which included unprovoked murder of foreign leaders on diplomatic assignments in the territory of ostensible US allies. To me, a great deal I see points to an eventual confrontation initiated by a faltering and panicking US against a nation that has not even 10% of the body count America does, and us siding with them out of necessity but selling it as righteous. A war we will be told will be easy but will likely be the thing to absolutely wreck basically everything. And I don't want that. I want both sides to put the swords away. But I am realistic enough to acknowledge which side is actually brandishing it's intent, and that's not China.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:23
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What if I told you it is possible to hold both empires in contempt without feeling the need to absolve one because you are more critical of the other? Not as a mealy mouthed "both sides are bad actually" argument, but recognizing valid criticisms without discounting some crimes due to the current topic de jour.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:28
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china's cool. why contain it?
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Sep 25, 2021 18:41
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Arc Hammer posted:What if I told you it is possible to hold both empires in contempt without feeling the need to absolve one because you are more critical of the other? Not as a mealy mouthed "both sides are bad actually" argument, but recognizing valid criticisms without discounting some crimes due to the current topic de jour. The net effect of this attitude is to feed the engine of empire as it seeks confrontation, while doing nothing to mitigate it. Any focus not trained on changing and blunting the imperialism of the empire we occupy is energy that feeds it, to say nothing of how this presents both sides as equivalent in the harm they've caused and are causing, which isn't even close to true. I do not want a war. We would be the aggressor, we are currently the belligerent faction, we are the side that ignores diplomacy or fair dealing. Claim both sides are bad all you want, we are the side commited to making things worse, and I will continue to point that out until that stops being the case.
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Sep 25, 2021 18:58
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China is opposed to America therefore China good. Checks out.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:16
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Wistful of Dollars posted:China is opposed to America therefore China good. at last you see reason
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Sep 25, 2021 19:20
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I still don't know how you can go "we arrested a CFO on behalf of the USA and China arrested two Canadian nationals in retaliation but it's okay because they were probably spies anyways." and not think you sound at least a little bit like a tankie.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:24
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Arc Hammer posted:I still don't know how you can go "we arrested a CFO on behalf of the USA and China arrested two Canadian nationals in retaliation but it's okay because they were probably spies anyways." and not think you sound at least a little bit like a tankie. people accuse me if that all the time, I really don't care. Most of the west is totally invested in the idea of our moral superiority, or at the very least our status as no worse than anyone else, which is a more deluded and false ideological stance than any other. We were the ones who initiated the whole thing. None of this had to happen. We made it happen. That lessens the impact of any retaliatory action on my mind. Reap what we sow. China is a flawed nation with many problems. The United States, with Canada as its extension, is a monster. Any realistic assessment at the history of the post war period to now shows us this. We are the problem in the way of a better world right now.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:33
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Arc Hammer posted:I still don't know how you can go "we arrested a CFO on behalf of the USA and China arrested two Canadian nationals in retaliation but it's okay because they were probably spies anyways." and not think you sound at least a little bit like a tankie. CanPol can have a little bit tankie, as a treat.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:35
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Or a lot of tankie, if seems.
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Sep 25, 2021 19:57
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To the people dead set on supporting the US here, what is your understanding of Huawei's specific crime here and why was it wrong? From a realpolitik perspective, I can see supporting the us or China depending on your specific ideological bent, but I can't get past anyone dead set on hating China here because they traded with Iran and then arrested a couple probable spies in retaliation to Canada supporting the us trying to destroy a major industrial company by sanctions because they privatized all industrial strategy and refuse to build any infrastructure of their own
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Sep 25, 2021 20:05
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Arc Hammer posted:I still don't know how you can go "we arrested a CFO on behalf of the USA and China arrested two Canadian nationals in retaliation but it's okay because they were probably spies anyways." and not think you sound at least a little bit like a tankie. Which part sets you off? You can drop the "probably spies" part if you want, it doesn't make a difference. We took a hostage, they took two, an exchange eventually happened. I'm having trouble locating my outrage.
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Sep 25, 2021 20:09
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Being critical of China is not the same as defending the USA or our own actions for this fuckup. I can be mad at Canada for playing lapdog to US corporate interests, I can be mad at USA for using soft power to influence us into taking the fall for them when they wouldn't be caught dead doing the same for us, and I can be mad at China for grabbing two people I'm retaliation and then daring us to do anything about it. It's easy being mad at more than one thing. This was a loving waste of everyone's time.
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Sep 25, 2021 20:10
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pokeyman posted:Which part sets you off? You can drop the "probably spies" part if you want, it doesn't make a difference. We took a hostage, they took two, an exchange eventually happened. I'm having trouble locating my outrage. Playing the fall guy for one hegemon and getting two people screwed over by the opposing hegemon sets me off. Canada gets screwed further by this bullshit than either China or the USA because we tried to play big boy and instead got punched in the teeth as a proxy for America. I'm mad mainly because it didn't need to happen and we got ourselves stuck I'm the middle of a pissing match trying to prove we're important global players.
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Sep 25, 2021 20:19
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If you still think what happened to Meng is equal to what the Michaels went through, or what they went through was justified, you're a bigger moron than I can imagine.
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Sep 25, 2021 20:38
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imagine being dumb enough to actually be mad about our President's Choice brand canadian jimmy bond knock off poo poo
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Sep 25, 2021 20:44
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Tighclops posted:imagine being dumb enough to actually be mad about our President's Choice brand canadian jimmy bond knock off poo poo I don't have to imagine being this dumb
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Sep 25, 2021 20:50
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The only moral move Canada could have done was pretend to be loving inept and let her get through.
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Sep 25, 2021 21:02
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Wistful of Dollars posted:If you still think what happened to Meng is equal to what the Michaels went through, or what they went through was justified, you're a bigger moron than I can imagine. Who cares. They're equivalent in the tit-for-tat realpolitik sense, they're disparate in various ways that are irrelevant unless you are the individuals in custody. The only part I'm justifying is my apathy.
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Sep 25, 2021 21:13
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Not being hysterical about China makes you a tankie, whereas helping the US enforce murderous sanctions on Iran is Normal
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Sep 25, 2021 21:22
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I for one can’t read a pluralized Michael without laughing.
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Sep 25, 2021 21:58
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Isn’t Spavor personal friends with dictator Kim Jong Un, and thus the worlds most famous Tankie?
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Sep 25, 2021 21:59
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apatheticman posted:The only moral move Canada could have done was pretend to be loving inept and let her get through. This is what I said at the time. Should have pretended to try to capture her, and deliberately hosed it up. Edit: probably could have just assigned one of the many know fuckups to be in charge.
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Sep 25, 2021 22:04
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ARACHTION posted:I for one can’t read a pluralized Michael without laughing. I just keep thinking about the crafts store.
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Sep 25, 2021 22:06
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Arc Hammer posted:Playing the fall guy for one hegemon and getting two people screwed over by the opposing hegemon sets me off. Canada gets screwed further by this bullshit than either China or the USA because we tried to play big boy and instead got punched in the teeth as a proxy for America. sure, that is why this sucks. Those sides aren't the same though, and one of them started it, and has started basically every confrontation like this for 30 years. Until that party changes its M.O. what just happened is the norm
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Sep 25, 2021 22:06
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 17:37 |
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Seems like the poster who is being referred to as a tankie is calling for less loving around in other countries, not more. Problem being, they seem to see us as part of the American empire. We are a client state. "Cooked barbarians", if you will. We can only say no so loud, and so often. I suspect that would have less effect on the empire's tiller than may be taken for granted. Eta. Yeah, it's lovely we got caught in the middle of this.
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Sep 25, 2021 22:08
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