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Turtledove has good twitter game https://twitter.com/HNTurtledove/status/1436760474771603456
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# ? Sep 12, 2021 05:15 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 20:14 |
The Guns of The South begins in an Army Of Northern Virginia camp in January of 1864. The previous year, Lee's second invasion of the North met a spectacular end at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and fallen back into Virginia. Attempts to inflict a matching defeat by exploiting General Meade's indifferent pursuit failed, as did Meade's belated attempt to catch and destroy Lee's forces at the Battle of Mine Run, less than a month before the novel begins. Our point of divergence here comes right at the beginning of the novel, while Lee is composing letters. Chapter 1: Robert E. Lee quote:Headquarters Lee here is describing preparations for the attempt to recapture the town of New Bern (no "e") North Carolina. There's one great problem here, on page 1 of the book. The New Bern campaign had nothing to do with Lee. Lee was never the commander of the entire Confederate Army - just the Army of Northern Virginia. The attack on New Berne was led by General George Pickett and supported by General Robert Hoke's 21st North Carolina. Neither Pickett or Hoke were under Lee's command, which does largely shield him from blame for the result. The Battle of New Bern was a Union victory, with little bloodshed. The most significant result came afterward, when Pickett discovered that 22 Union prisoners were born in North Carolina and had them shot as deserters.. Lee continues his letter before being interrupted by gunfire. quote:A gun cracked, quite close to the tent. Soldier’s instinct pulled Lee’s head up. Then he smiled and laughed at himself. One of his staff officers, most likely, shooting at a possum or a squirrel. He hoped the young man scored a hit. There were two famous repeaters used by Union troops during the Civil War, most of which were privately purchased by soldiers or officers. The Henry Repeating Rifle (the design of which would form the basis for the famous Winchester line of leverguns) was a lever action rifle firing the .44 Henry cartrige from a 15-round tubular magazine located under the barrel. The primary weakness of the Henry was that .44 Henry is a relatively low-powered round - far closer to the rounds fired from a Colt 1860 revolver than to those fired by the standard Springfield carbine or rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofGnRSE7lpI The other famous repeater of the war was the Spencer. Also a lever design, the Spencer fired .56-56 Spencer cartridges from a 7-round magazine located in the buttstock. Less reliable than the Henry, and with lower magazine capacity, the primary advantage of the Spencer was the cartridge - .56-56 Spencer was on par with the standard muzzleloaders in both bullet weight and muzzle velocity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8eQmTUHzeU As Lee helpfully explains, neither is a thirty-shooter. Lee returns to his letter, only to almost immediately hear another burst of gunfire, this one being a large number in very close succession. Lee hastily begins to exit his tent, running right into an aide bearing a letter. quote:Bureau of Ordnance, Richmond Rhoodie is very polite, well fed, and speaks with an odd accent. After exchanging pleasantries, he gets down to business. quote:
An odd uniform, equipment of extremely high quality, and this marvelous rifle. Where could this guy have come from? Rhoodie pulls sheets of paer from his bag, which prove to be targets bearing a life-size sillohette of a man's torso and head. He requests that these be put up to demonstrate accuracy, out to 4 or 5 hundred yards. quote:When the aides were through, a ragged column of thirty targets straggled southeast toward Orange Court House a couple of miles off. The knot of tents that was Lee’s headquarters lay on a steep hillside, well away from encamped troops or any other human habitations. The young men laughed and joked as they came back to Rhoodie and Lee. “There’s General McClellan!” Charles Marshall said, stabbing a thumb in the direction of the nearest target. “Give him what he deserves!” The answer is unhelpful - Rhoodie just explains that he uses a different powder than normal. The targets are brought in, and 28 out of 30 targets have been struck - impressive by any standard. After reloading, he demonstrates a second feature. quote:“Sorry. The Yankees, I mean. What if the Yankees are too close for aimed fire?” Below the handle was a small metal lever. Rhoodie clicked it down so that, instead of being parallel to the handle’s track, its front end pointed more nearly toward the ground. He turned away from Lee and his staff officers. “This is what.” Rhoodie's rifle, as he helpfully explains, uses the gas from each shot to push the bolt back. Lee is impressed, but fears that this is all pointless - after all, how many of these wonder weapons can he acquire, when the Confederacy is unable to produce even conventional arms in quantity. quote:Rhoodie smiled broadly. “How many would you like?” So this guy not only has wonderous equipment, he knows all kinds of information that he shouldn't. The proposal is to have Holk's trains stop at the town of Rivington, North Carolina on their way back from delivering the troops. There, they can take on the first shipment of 25,000 rifles with a supply of ammunition, and can repeat this until the initial order is filled. 100,000 rifles is more than the Army of Northern Virginia requires, but the Confederacy has other commands. A point which Rhoodie makes clear. quote:“The Confederacy has more armies than yours. Don’t you think General Johnston will be able to use some when General Sherman brings the whole Military Division of the Mississippi down against him come spring?” Lee can find no trap here, and no risk to him. He decides to accept Rhoodie's offer. This leaves only one matter in need of resolution. quote:Walter Taylor asked, “Mr. Rhoodie, what do you call this rifle of yours. Is it a Rhoodie, too? Most inventors name their products for themselves, do they not?” The Автома́т Кала́шникова (Avtomat Kalashnikova, or "Kalishnikov's Automatic Rifle"), more commonly known as the AK or AK-47, is a rifle developed in the Soviet Union immediately after the end of the Second World War. Although the designer took lessons from existing weapons - primarily the American M1 Garand, the German Sturmgewer 44, and the Soviet SKS - the final desing was entirely his own work. Perhaps the most famous firearm on the planet, the AK and derived designs have seen combat service on five continents and played a part in just about every war since Korea. Some estimates suggest that one out of every five firearms worldwide is an AK or derivative. The AK-47 fires the 7.62x39mm cartridge from a thirty-round detachable box magazine, is extremely accurate out to 500 meters, and is extremely robust. Not, perhaps, as robust as the gun's reputation suggests, but robust nontheless. After finishing his letter, Lee heads back outside. Rhoodie is boiling water, and it is growing time for Lee to eat as well. quote:Lee’s servant came up. “Supper be ready soon, Marse Robert.” Note Rhoodie's treatment of Perry here. Among everything else, he compliments Lee on Perry's cooking, not the man himself. Lee's immediately requests that Rhoodie start supplying these magic rations along with the magic rifles. Rhoodie hems and haws, but allows that he might be able to provide some, given time. After eating, he begins to boil more water to Lee's surprise. quote:“I was going to boil water for coffee. Would you like some?” AWB does NOT stand for America Will Break. The Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (AWB) began as a political party in South Africa devoted to the preservation of apartheid and other white-supremacy laws. Better armed and more vicious than the American Ku Klux Klan, and using a distinctive three-armed swastika as their symbol, they eventually rallied around the cause of seceeding from the South African government on the grounds that it wasn't racist enough, and were the primary opponent of groups such as Nelson Mandela's African National Congress. By the time this book was written in 1992, the AWB was still strong but the writing on the wall was clear. The group fell into a sharp decline after majority rule came to South Africa in 1994, and today they are just another group of bitter and virulent neo-Nazi leftovers. Later that evening, Lee encounters Rhoodie reading the Bible by firelight while making a call of nature, and finds it easy to sleep despite the coffee. This act of devotion gives Lee more reason to trust the man. A few days later, after having to order the army's rations reduced due to supply issues, Lee recieves a telegram from the trains. Many crates were loaded in Rivington, and inspection found them to be filled with rifles and cartridges of unknown design. This does not wholly alleviate Lee's suspicions. quote:“Yes, sir.” Venable hesitated, then went on, “May I ask, sir, what you think of Mr. Rhoodie?” Some time later, Lee meets the train carrying the rifles himself. quote:A plume of woodsmoke announced a train heading up the Orange and Alexandria Railroad to the little town of Orange Court House. Lee pointed to it with the eagerness of a boy who spies his Christmas present being fetched in. “If I have calculated rightly, gentlemen, that will be the train from Rivington. Shall we ride to meet it, and see this first consignment of Mr. Rhoodie’s rifles?” The slaves unloading the train are supervised by Confederate soldiers as well as more men in the strange mottled clothes. All are big men, with the same accent as Rhoodie. Attempts to get information from Rhoodie about this are deflected. quote:Lee dismounted. His aides and Rhoodie followed him to the ground; Venable hitched Traveller to the rail. A soldier with two bars on either side of his collar walked up to them. His face, Lee thought, was too thin for the whiskers he’d chosen, which were like those of the Federal general Burnside. He saluted. “Asbury Finch, sir, 21st Georgia.” Lee considers this a valid concern. He promptly issues orders to have the head of the Bureau of Ordnance to investigate copying the weapon, and to send a rifle (with a supply of cartridges) to the Army's expert on gunpowder. Detailed plans on how to disperse the new arms are made. quote:
Note here how Rhoodie talks to the white Confederates. He isn't nearly as dismissive of them as he was Perry, but he still has an air of arrogance and superiority. Gnoman fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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# ? Sep 13, 2021 06:12 |
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Gnoman posted:Chapter 1: Robert E. Lee Thanks for write up, this is excellent. One minor point regarding the letter Lee was writing, you are right that Lee wasn't commanding the troops for that battle. But in the real timeline he did write that letter on 1/20/1864, so it being included wasn't a mistake by Turtledove but more of an exact moment to show when history was diverging. https://books.google.com/books?id=v...erne%22&f=false Sorry minor quibble, looking forward to more please.
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# ? Sep 13, 2021 17:20 |
The letter is historical, but the narration implies that Lee was the guy who came up with the plan of attack, which I don't think is accurate.
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# ? Sep 13, 2021 20:00 |
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Gnoman posted:The letter is historical, but the narration implies that Lee was the guy who came up with the plan of attack, which I don't think is accurate. Oh you're right, missed that part about his inner thoughts. My mistake.
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# ? Sep 13, 2021 20:05 |
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I remember being handed Worldwar by my weird uncle. I'll be following this thread!
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# ? Sep 15, 2021 07:48 |
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Awhile ago I spent entirely too much time trying to remember a short story that I loved as a teen. Turns out it was Designated Hitter which you can find in Departures. For some reason I didn't think of Turtledove when looking for a scifi story about baseball which is almost as stupid as me searching for it with duckduckgo when the right answer came up instantly on google. Check it out if you haven't read it.
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# ? Sep 15, 2021 19:28 |
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coathat posted:Awhile ago I spent entirely too much time trying to remember a short story that I loved as a teen. Turns out it was Designated Hitter which you can find in Departures. For some reason I didn't think of Turtledove when looking for a scifi story about baseball which is almost as stupid as me searching for it with duckduckgo when the right answer came up instantly on google.
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# ? Sep 16, 2021 16:45 |
Chapter 2: Nate Caudellquote:“What else, Alsie?” First Sergeant Nate Caudell asked patiently. quote:Excitement ran through Caudell. The cavalry had got itself new rifles the past couple of weeks. So had Major General Anderson’s infantry division, whose winter quarters were even closer to Orange Court House than those of Henry Heth’s division, of which the 47th North Carolina was a part. If half--if a tithe--of the stories about those rifles were true quote:Lang jumped lightly down from the wagon. He was about five-ten, dark, and on the skinny side. His clothes bore no rank badges of any sort, but he carried himself like a soldier. “I usually get two questions at a time like this,” he said. “The first one is, why don’t you teach everyone yourself? Sorry, but we haven’t the manpower. Immediately, Caudell notices something is wrong - he's from Nash County, North Carolina. This is where the fictional town of Rivington - where the rifles are supposed to be coming from - is located, and the man's accent doesn't match. Lang opens with a demonstration, and asks the best shot with a rifle-musket to give him a baseline. quote:Watching the ordnance sergeant handle his rifle, Nate Caudell thought, was like being back on the target range at Camp Mangum outside of Raleigh, hearing the command, “Load in nine times: load!” Hines did everything perfectly, smoothly, just as the manual said he should. To load, he held the rifle upright between his feet, with the muzzle in his left hand and with his right already going to the cartridge box he wore at his belt. The regulation and expected rate of fire for a Springfield or Enfield rifle musket was three rounds a minute. Two aimed shots in thirty seconds, or four rounds a minute, is a good time. The standard cartridge box held forty rounds - enough for around 13 minutes of fire at the standard rate. This video demonstrates the described procedure, albeit at a sedate pace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCAYXQ1Z6q4 The men are organized into training groups for the two dozen rifles that Lang brought with him. quote:“Here you go, First Sergeant.” Ben Whitley handed Caudell a repeater. He held it in both hands, marveling at how light it was compared to the Springfield that hung from pegs on the wall back in his cabin. He slung it as Lang had done. It seemed to weigh next to nothing on his shoulder. Toting this kind of rifle, a man might march forever before he got sore. Depending on the exact version, an unloaded AK weighs between 6.5 and 7.7 pounds. The most common variant, the AKM, is also the lightest due to stamped construction. The magazine adds another .7 pounds or so, giving a loaded weight of 7.2 pounds for an AKM. An 1861 Springfield rifle-musket (the weapon Caudell is using as a reference) is 9 pounds, while the 1851 Enfield (common in Confederate forces) tops the scales at a hefty 9.5. 2 pounds may not seem like an enormous amount, but it matters quite a bit. Powell's comment is a bit anachronistic. The 1861 Springfield had simple flip up sights with two "leaves" (both flipped down - 100 yards, flip up one for 300 yards, and the other for 500), the 1851 Enfield had a fairly complicated ladder sight system that was adjustable from 100 yards to 400, with a flip-up option finely adjustble to 900. The AK uses a ladder sight system very similar to that of an Enfield. The sights were not particularly important to Civil War troops - neither side trained their men in proper use of the sights, focusing instead on steady rate of fire. The standard ammunition for a rifle musket was the .58" diameter "Minié ball", a pointed soft lead projectile with an open base. When the gun was fired, the cavity at the rear of the bullet expands to engage the rifling in the barrel, imparting spin and forming a tight gas seal. This revolutionary invention is what made rifled muzzle-loaders practical for military use, because you could now load a rifle as easily and quickly as you can a smoothbore musket. This bullet would be around 500 grains, and was propelled by 60 grains of black powder, giving a velocity in the range of 900-1200 FPS. This works out to around 1300-1400 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. This would be provided in the form of a pre-loaded paper cartridge, and a seperate percussion cap would be added to the lock before firing. The standard bullet fired by an AK is a 7.62mm (.30") jacketed 7.9 gram (123 grains) bullet propelled by 1.6 grams of smokeless powder. This gives a muzzle velocity of around 730 meters/second (2400 feet per second) and a muzzle energy of ~2000 joules (~1500 foot pounds). This is provided in a ready-to-use paper cartridge that contains a primer at the rear. All that is needed to fire is placing it in the gun. In addition to being easier to load, the slimmer bullet loses less energy to air resistance (meaning it retains velocity longer), and the much higher velocity results in far less bullet drop. At any relevant range, the bullet might as well be going straight, while a Minié ball is performing a parabolic arc due to the need to significantly elevate the muzzle. This ammunition does, in fact "beat Minié balls all hollow.” quote:“Does every group have an AK-47 and a banana clip?” Lang asked. He waited to see if anyone would say no. When no one did, he continued: “Turn your weapon upside down. In front of your trigger guard, you’ll see a catch. It holds the clip in place.” He pointed to it on his own carbine. “Everyone finger that catch. Pass your weapon back and forth. Everyone needs to put hands on it, not just watch me.” The last line is a somewhat clever reference - "That damned Yankee rifle that they load on Sunday and shoot all week!" is a complaint about the Henry rifle often attributed to Confederate soldiers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUq2yd1Nc_s After everybody has had three rounds of fire, Lang decides to demonstrate one more thing. quote:Lang kept at it until everyone had had a turn shooting an AK-47. Then he said, “This weapon can do one other thing I haven’t shown you yet. When you move the change lever all the way down instead of to the middle position, this is what happens.” He stuck a fresh clip in the repeater, turned toward the target circle, and blasted away. He went through the whole magazine almost before Caudell could draw in a startled breath. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vh3dsbCRJs&t=224s Lang tells them exactly why – it isn’t accurate, and uses a ton of ammunition quckly. Training proceeds to disassembly and cleaning. The Confederates are not happy with the complexity of the weapon. quote:“Reassembly procedure is the exact reverse of what we’ve just done. The bolt goes on the carrier”--he deftly matched action to words--”and they both go into the receiver. Then the recoil spring and its guide fit in back of the bolt carrier. Push ‘em forward till the rear of the guide clears the back of the receiver, then push down to engage the guide. Then you put the receiver plate in place, push in on the spring guide, and push the plate down to lock it.” He grinned at the North Carolinians. “Now you try it. Don’t bother cleaning your weapon this first time. Just get it apart and back together.” I can't find the relevant tweet, but Turteldove mentioned on his Twitter at some point that he prepared for this by finding a friend who owned an AK and asking to be shown how take it apart and put it back together. Anything he had trouble with, that's where his Confederates were going to have trouble. A sound method. I'm not actually sure what the "trick" is that they need to learn, as none of the AK guides I'm finding emphasize trouble with this step, and I don't own one myself. As training finishes, Lang prepares to end things, asking for questions. quote:“Yeah, I got one,” somebody said immediately. Heads turned toward him as he took a swaggering step out of his group. “You got your fancy-pants rifle there, Mr. Benny Lang, kill anything that twitches twenty miles away; What I want to know is, how good a man are you without it?” He gazed toward Lang with insolent challenge in his eyes. Beddingfield tries more blind attack, is put down just as easily, and savagely beaten while on the ground as well. The Colonel is not upset by this, as Beddingfield just attacked a valuable ally for no reason. quote:The other sergeants from Company D solemnly nodded: Caudell said, “Talk has it, he and his people are from Rivington, right in our home county.” The Confederates are absolutely delighted with the new weapon, with the only drawback being that it isn't great for hand-to-hand. There are concerns about the shipment arriving on time, and of ammunition supply. quote:
Practice continues until and through the evening meal. quote:“What do you have, Edwin?” Dempsey Eure demanded when Powell returned. Caudell’s stomach growled like a starving bear. He’d known some lean times before the war--what man hadn’t, save maybe a planter like Faribault? --but he’d never known what real hunger was till he joined the army. Before widespread canning, it was most common to issue raw ingredients and have food prepared much like this. This often resulted in improvised dishes like this one, which tend to have long-standing cultural associations. The next morning is bright and cold. quote:“Yes, sir.” Caudell took from his pocket a much-folded piece of paper. After so many repetitions, he hardly needed to look at it as he called the men’s names: “Bailey, Ransom...Barnes, Lewis D. W…. Bass, Gideon...” He finished a few minutes later: “Winstead, John A....Winstead, William T.” He turned back to Lewis with a salute.” All present, sir.” In the American Civil War, sickness was a far greater killer than the enemy, no matter which side you happened to be on. Bad food, bad water, and (quite often) excreble camp hygeine invited a host of diseases to come out in force. The grim reality is that five soldiers died of sickness for every three that were shot. This was standard for all wars until relatively recently - the first war where more men died in action than were carried off by sickness was the First World War (1914-1918). Even then, this might not have been the case if the war had continued after the Spanish Flu really got going. quote:“Benny Lang leaped down from his wagon and started shouting like a man possessed: “Come on, get those crates off! This isn’t a bloody picnic, so move it, you lazy k*****s!” The slaves started unloading the wagons at the same steady but leisurely pace they usually used. It was not fast enough to suit Lang. “Move, drat you!” he shouted again. Note that, while the Confederate troops have no problem with this abuse in ethical terms, there's real debate on the practicality. Meanwhile Lang seems to be doing this as much for enjoyment as for getting the work done. quote:
The concept of a safety catch was not unknown during the American Civil War, but were generally uncommon, especially on rifles. This is primarily because weapons were rarely in a state where you would carry them for a long time in a ready to fire state. Manual safeties became much more common with cartridge arms, due to how easy it was to carry those "at the ready". Shots fired on purpose begin to ring out as troops begin live fire practice. Soon, it is the Castallia Invincibles turn. quote:“Enough,” Caudell said. Horseplay was fun, but horseplay between men who carried rifles had to be controlled before it got out of hand. Running out of ammunition with a rifle musket wasn't that hard. There are many accounts of soldiers taking advantage of lulls in the fighting to loot the cartridge boxes of fallen comrades, and there were more serious incidents as well. One of the most famous examples happened in the battle of Antietam, where Burnsides's troops were largely ineffective due to wasting all their ammunition in pointless skirmishing, which greatly aided the Confederate forces. The Invincibles proceed through the same drill as the other units, with the same chant. Cleaining is every bit as popular among the men as it was the officers, and they have the same problems. quote:“More questions?” he said at last. “All right, then--dismissed.” Most of the men drifted away, still talking excitedly about the new repeaters they were carrying. The other groups had already broken up, some a good while before. Caudell cared nothing about that. Thoroughness counted here, and he was used to repeating himself any number of times until students caught on to what he was saying. Melvin Bean did not wander off. The private removed the receiver plate, took out the rifle’s works, tried to put them back together. Caudell watched. They proved balky. Bean swore softly, then said, “I just can’t make the pesky thing fit. Do you want to come back to my hut with me and show me what I’m doin’ wrong?” All of the Castallia Invincibles are, according to Turtledove, historical characters. The names are taken from the muster rolls, characterizations are extrapolated from the available data (Turtledove notes that the real Beddingfield, for example, was constantly being busted in rank and then re-promoted, so was given a pugnacious and combative personality), and there really was a Mollie "Melvin" Bean. The historical Bean was obviously not a resident of of the wholly fictional town of Rivington, and her exact unit was unknown to the author. Melvin Bean is actually a whore (her literal profession) by the name of Mollie. quote:
The most salient information here is that there was no sign of the newcomers in town a year ago. They seem to have appeared out of nowhere. The continued pessimisim about the ammunition supply is also interesting, as not everyone trusts these men to continue their bounty.
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# ? Sep 20, 2021 02:01 |
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That's interesting about how the details of the different rifles. I didn't know the Springfields fired in a parabolic arc or why AKs have the curved clip.
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# ? Sep 21, 2021 21:25 |
The arc thing is a bit oversimplified - I couldn't find a concise video to explain it, and didn't want to spend a huge number of words. Fundamentally, all black powder guns are lower velocity than their counterparts that use smokeless propellants, and that means that gravity pulls them down more over a given distance. So you have to start compensating for vertical drop a lot earlier, and compensate a lot more. Rounds fired with smokeless powders can (and usually do) go a lot faster, so you don't have to compensate nearly as much. My main focus here was trying to emphasize exactly how far ahead of what they're used to (and thus just how insane the advantage they now have) the AK is.
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# ? Sep 21, 2021 23:12 |
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Read this book probably 15 years ago and was impressed in how much smarter it is than its elevator pitch -- "the Confederacy gets Kalashnikovs" but with 350 pages thoughtfully exloring what that world would actually look like. Curious to see how it's aged. I love how in the beginning Rhoodie expects Lee to be blown away by his MRE but Lee immediately clocks it as just the logical extension of what they already have. Kind of a foreshadowing to something that is revealed later -- The AWB doesn't actually have a great sense of the history they're altering, their Civil War knowledge largely comes from a picture book that's heavily implied to be geared towards children.
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# ? Sep 22, 2021 16:20 |
Chapter 3: Robert E. Leequote:The locomotive snorted and hissed as it slowed. The shriek of the locked driving wheels against sanded rails reminded General Lee of the cries of wounded horses, the most piteous sound on any battlefield. The train stopped. There was a last jolt as the cars came together with a clanking clatter of link-and-pin couplings. Lee is met by a carriage, and is here to consult with Confederate President Jefferson Davis. quote:The Confederate flag waved bravely over the Capitol, red canton with blue saltire cross and thirteen stars on a white ground. The Stainless Banner would come down soon; sunset was near. It was both like enough to the Stars and Stripes and different enough from it to stir conflicting feelings in Lee. He remembered the day, almost three years gone now, when he had gone into the House of Delegates to take charge of Virginia’s forces. He shook his head. Four days before that, Winfield Scott had offered him command over the armies of the United States, to lead them against their seceded brethren. He still thought he had made the right--for him, the only--choice. I have no idea what building Turtledove is describing here. The Confederate Capitol in Richmond is still in use today, as the central portion of the Virginia State Capitol (wings were added in 1904 to support the expanding state government). The building is a perfect example of the neo-Classical architecuural tradition, designed by Thomas Jefferson in direct imitation of an ancient Roman building. Note that the actual structure has square-topped windows. EDIT: Mystery solved Epicurius posted:The old Richmond Custom House is right across from the State Capitol, and was, during the Civil War, the home of the offices of the President and the Confederate cabinet. Currently, as the Lewis F. Powell Jr. United States Courthouse, it's where the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals sets. Here's a picture of it from just after the Richmond fire of 1865. Robert E. Lee was, in fact, offered a high command in the Union Army in 1861. The timing here is slightly off - Lee's formal resignation from the United States Army came three days before he accepted command in the newly formed army of Virginia (the Confederate States Army was already authorized, but did not start forming for another 4 days), but the Union offer came nearly a month earlier. Accounts from his eldest daughter hold that he spent much of that time deliberating - it was not the automatic that Turtledove suggests. Lee makes his way to Davis's office. quote:“Well enough, sir,” Lee answered with a shrug. “I left this morning and am here now. If I am a trifle later than the railroad men claimed I would be when I set out, well, what train ever runs dead on time?” As President, Davis faced a problem very similar to the one Lincoln did in Washington. Most of his Cabinet picks were based on political connections (particulary placating the various Confederate States, who all wanted input) more than merit, and there was constant turnover. James Seddon was the fourth Secretary Of War under Davis, replacing George Randolph who replaced Judah Benjamin who replaced LeRoy Walker. Seddon would be the longest-serving of the five Confederate Secretaries of War, serving from late 1862 until early 1865, when he was replaced by John C. Breckenridge. This longevity likely had to do with the fact that Seddon doesn't appear to have done much of anything, freeing Davis to run the war personally. Many of his strategic decisions were poor ones, and his relationship with General Johnston was one of them. The quarrel between Davis and Johnston began quite early, when the latter wrote a letter to Davis out of fury that he was not the most senior Confederate general despite having had higher senority in the Union Army than all the men who outranked him. Johnston was also overly considered cautious, which caused Davis to begin bypassing the general with direct orders to subordinate units. At the time of this novel, the primary point of contention between the two was the loss of Vicksburg in 1863. Johnston advocated withdrawing forces from the city to more defensible positions, while Davis ordered the forces in the city to stand at all costs. This led Davis to see Johnston as a coward afraid to fight, while Johnston saw Davis as a micromanager who threw away battles out of pride and spite. Only Johnston's popularity with the press and Senate prevented him from being fired. Patrick Cleburne did, in fact, advocate freeing and arming slaves in 1864. Turtledove gets it wrong, or else is deliberately changing it, because Cleburne did not advocate freeing "some portion" of the slaves. He advocated "emancipating the whole race upon reasonable terms, and within such reasonable time", along with "wise legislation" to prevent any true equality. The only historical result of the proposal was that Cleburne was blacklisted from any further promotion despite a reputation for great ability, and remained a division commander until he was killed in action at the Battle Of Franklin on November 30. His proposal to keep the blacks "in their place" comes across as very similar to the passbook system introduced after abolition was forced on the CSA in Turtledove's other "South wins the Civil War" series, in which Cleburne survives the war. ninjahedgehog posted:I love how in the beginning Rhoodie expects Lee to be blown away by his MRE but Lee immediately clocks it as just the logical extension of what they already have. This comment is already relevant again. Not so much the logical extension part, but they're immediately clocking all the oddities of the AK. It wouldn't be that difficult to grind off the markings in question and leave the weapons unmarked or remark them with Confederate markinst or the AWB's three-armed swastika. They didn't even bother to launder the guns in this way, which is throwing serious doubts on their cover storie immediately. After deciding to try planting agents in Rivington, the meeting adjourns, and Lee is free to head to his family. quote:Lee smiled and shifted forward in his seat as the carriage rolled past the church. The house Mary Custis Lee was renting lay halfway down the same block, on the opposite side of the street. Mary Custis Lee suffered from severe rheumatoid arthritis despite being only in late middle age. At this point in her life she was only 56 years old, but had been wheelchair bound for nearly 2 years. Historically, she would live until 1873, at which point she was nearly invalid. They settle in for a rare family evening, and the conversation eventually turns to the war. quote:“Our own soldiers suffer in Northern prison camps,” Lee said, “though the North has more to spare for captives than do we. The North has more to spare for everyone.” He sighed. “I have said that, thought that, wrestled with that for too long. I wish this war had never come; it wastes both sides.” Note that even Lee's daughters, who have almost no information, can see at once that there is something wrong with the AWB men. Lee reported suffering from chest pains and numbness in some of his letters starting in the latter half of the war, and it is commonly believed that he suffered from undiagnosed coronary artery disease. There is reliable evidence that he may have suffered from a heart attack around the time of Gettysburg, and this is consistent with the stroke that killed him in 1870. The next morning, Lee heads to the armory to confer with Colonel Josiah Gorgas. quote:The carriage rolled down Seventh Street toward the James River. The armory sprawled at the foot of Gamble’s Hill, diagonally between Seventh and Fourth. The Kanawha Canal ran behind it. Luke pulled up to the columned central entranceway; the dome that surmounted it did not seem to be of a piece with the rest of the long, low brick building. The Virginia Manufactory of Arms was originally established in 1798 to ensure a supply of arms for the militia of the state of Virginia, and shut down in 1821. Virginia attempted to reopen the facility in 1860 with equipment purchased from England, but the outbreak of open fighting prevented this equipment from being delivered. Thus, production did not begin until after the capture of equipment at Harper's Ferry in 1861, at which time production began on the "Richmond rifles", copies of the 1855 Springfield converted to standard percussion caps. Roughly 37,000 complete weapons were produced here durng the course of the war. The facility was destroyed when Richmond fell in 1865, much of the surviving equipment was used in the restoration of the Tredegar Iron Works postwar, and the few remaining ruins were demolished in 1900. Discussion turns to the reason that Lee is here - the AK-47. quote:Lee considered. “Henry Heth said something to that effect to me once,” he remarked. “It may be so. Hemmed in as I am by responsibility, I have few opportunities personally to demonstrate it, if it is. But I would surely rather strike a blow than either flee of remain quiet, waiting to be struck. Enough of my ramblings now, sir--to business. I thank God for these gentlemen from Rivington and for the arms with which they are supplying us. I am not, however, eager to forever depend on them for weapons. If anyone, if any establishment in the Confederacy can manufacture their like, you are the; man, and this is the place.” The AK does indeed have a number of less efficient ancestors, dating back to the 1908 Mondragón (the first gas-operated autoloading rifle) or to the failed recoil-operated rifles designed by Ferdinand Mannlicher in 1885. A less capable weapon would still have been a huge improvement to Confederate firepower, and would have raised far less suspicion. This raises the question of why the AWB chose the AK. Obviously it was an easy weapon for them to obtain in large numbers, but the same would have been true of other, less suspicious designs. Either they didn't care about maintaining their cover story, or they blithley assumed that the primitive 19th century Confederates were too stupid to figure it out. quote:“From the general to the particular.” Gorgas reached into a desk drawer, took out a couple of rounds for the AK-47. He passed them over to Lee. “You will observe that the bullets are not simply lead.” The Williams bullet is apparently controversial. That the thing existed is certain, but it is unclear what the actual intended purpose was (it may well have been intended for greater accuracy, with any cleaning being a side effect), if it worked, and to what extent it was actually used. One thing is certain - the design was not introduced until after the outbreak of war, and it was manufactured exclusively by the Union. Lee and Gorges might well know what it was, but they would not expect it to be regularly used. Jacketed projectiles began to see use in 1882 during experiments with smaller, higher-velocity projectiles - pushing the bullet faster made leading worse. A beneficial side effect is that, when applied to a magazine system, jacketed rounds are less likely to deform and jam than bare lead ones. quote:“Tell me what else you do know,” Lee urged, not liking to see such a capable officer so downhearted. At the time of the Civil War, all firearms used corned black powder, which had changed little (save in purity and manufacturing quality) in almost half a millenium. Experiments in creating a firearms propellent to replace it had been proceeding since the invention of guncotton in 1846, but this was dangerous to produce and unstable to use. Real progress didn't come until the late 1860s, and the first truly practical smokeless powder would not come until 1884 with the introduction of Poudre B, used in the revolutionary 1866 Lebel rifle. The price being charged is perhaps the most egregious error made by the AWB. While it is possible to come up with a plausible excuse, the fact that they offer none is proof that they either didn't care, or didn't comprehend the difference between gold and Confederate paper. The two agree that there are too many suspicious things about the AWB to really trust them, despite the benefit they bring. quote:“That is exactly my view.” Lee really stood this time. Through the window in Gorgas’s office, he saw the white frame buildings of the Confederate laboratory on Brown’s Island, separated from the mainland by a thin stretch of the James. Pointing across to them, he said, “I trust everyone at the cartridge loading works is busily engaged.” The Brown's Island facility was the largest ammunition factory the Confederacy possessed, producing over a million cartridges of small arms ammunition each week, and employed more than 600 workers. On March 13, 1863, a badly organized workroom combined with careless handling of shock-sensitive ammunition componets to produce an enormous explosion. The casualties Turtledove gives here are incorrect - ten women and girls were killed instantly, with the final death toll reaching 50. Another 14 were badly wounded but would heal, after a fashion. The youngest of the dead was only ten years old. Operations resumed on the 4th of April, the minimum working age was raised to 15, and no further accidents happened during the war. Leaving the armory, lee heads to the War Department to meet somebody quite important. quote:The clerk--John Beauchamp Jones his nameplate proclaimed him to be, as if by trumpeting his middle name he could make up for the utter plainness of those that flanked it--finished writing his sentence before he looked up. His thin, clean-shaven face bore a sour expression at the interruption. That quickly changed when he saw who stood before him. “Yes, General, he does. He’s there now, I believe; I saw him go up this morning.” Custis Lee did eventually achieve field command in the defense of Richmond against Grant. He was captured in action three days before the end of the war, held several academic posts afterward, and made headlines by suing to regain the family manision at Arlington. After winning the case, he sold the property to the US Government. He died in 1913. Note how incredibly suspicious the AWB men have been - nobody is buying their story, and the Confederates are almost forming a line to start prying into their secrets. Careless. quote:Lee walked out of his son’s office and down the stairs. His way out to the street carried him past John Jones’s desk. The clerk was turned away from him, talking to the man at the next desk: “My boy Custis’s parrot happened to be loose from its cage. It swooped down on the meat as if it were a hawk, the miserable bird, and gulped it down before we could get it back again. Meat is too hard to come by in Richmond these days to waste on a parrot; we’ll go without on account of it. I wish the damned talking feather duster would flyaway for good.” Gnoman fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 25, 2021 |
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 11:55 |
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Gnoman posted:Guns of the South I think you meant to write metallic cartridge instead of "paper cartridge" when describing AK ammunition. Otherwise pretty good and accurate.
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 15:04 |
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Gnoman posted:
The old Richmond Custom House is right across from the State Capitol, and was, during the Civil War, the home of the offices of the President and the Confederate cabinet. Currently, as the Lewis F. Powell Jr. United States Courthouse, it's where the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals sets. Here's a picture of it from just after the Richmond fire of 1865.
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 15:57 |
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Gnoman posted:Discussion turns to the reason that Lee is here - the AK-47. Obviously the real answer is that the AK is more iconic than possibly any other firearm in history and makes for a better book cover, but in-universe I bet AWB also chose it for its legendary reliability. Like you said, they're severely underestimating how savvy the Confederates are and probably wanted something that, from their perspective, even these backwards hillbillies would be hard pressed to break.
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 17:46 |
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You know the book by an SF author named Harry where a racist travels back in time to give the confederates machine guns to try and help them win the american civil war? No, the other one? Well this guy takes back a Sten gun and the plans for same so they can make their own. I honestly can't remember how it works out because I haven't read it for 30 years or so, but it's from 1983, nearly 10 years before Guns of the South. (Guns of the South is a much better book, imo.)
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 18:13 |
quantumfoam posted:I think you meant to write metallic cartridge instead of "paper cartridge" when describing AK ammunition. While I can see how it happened going back and forth between the different kinds of ammunition, that is a truly embarrassing error to make. Epicurius posted:The old Richmond Custom House is right across from the State Capitol, and was, during the Civil War, the home of the offices of the President and the Confederate cabinet. Currently, as the Lewis F. Powell Jr. United States Courthouse, it's where the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals sets. Here's a picture of it from just after the Richmond fire of 1865. Edited into the post, thanks for that. ninjahedgehog posted:Obviously the real answer is that the AK is more iconic than possibly any other firearm in history and makes for a better book cover, but in-universe I bet AWB also chose it for its legendary reliability. Like you said, they're severely underestimating how savvy the Confederates are and probably wanted something that, from their perspective, even these backwards hillbillies would be hard pressed to break. Out of universe, the inspiration for the book was supposedly a complaint from another author (I'm finding conflicting information on precisely which author it was - some sources are saying Tanith Lee, others Judith Tarr) that the cover of her latest novel was as anachronistic as "Robert E. Lee holding an UZI". Turtledove was taken by the idea, but decided that the Uzi was not the proper weapon and substituted the AK. That said, speculating on in-universe reasons is entertaining.
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 21:15 |
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ninjahedgehog posted:Obviously the real answer is that the AK is more iconic than possibly any other firearm in history and makes for a better book cover, but in-universe I bet AWB also chose it for its legendary reliability. Like you said, they're severely underestimating how savvy the Confederates are and probably wanted something that, from their perspective, even these backwards hillbillies would be hard pressed to break. Yeah that makes sense. I agree it would be more plausible for them to use early 1900s rifles but it would have been hard for them to obtain those and their ammo in large numbers, while for the AK-47 they seem to just be buying them by the shipping container and sending them through the time machine. Plus they’d have familiarity and could be trainers. One of my favorite little things in the book are hints about how the north is starting to adapt the AK-47, especially as they wound up with hundreds of captured rifles and have far more engineers and factories than the south. Not something the Rivington men are shown to care about but as the north is already starting to use an early model of the AK against the UK, interesting to imagine how odd the timeline will get. Especially as by the end plenty of people know about the time travel and the houses in Rivington were loaded with books and tech, good chance lots of that would go missing and end up north. The Rivington men were all over the south, good odds a few of them didn’t feel like joining the last stand and put on different clothes or sailed for Europe. Definitely agree they don’t bother much to have a real cover story, especially in Rivington where they build houses with electricity and AC and don’t turn those off when they have visitors, and anyone can visit the town pre-insurrection. As those men all seem focused on living in big houses with lots of slaves seems like they don’t care about maintaining the masquerade and it might have been hard for their leaders to make everyone live in primitive conditions indefinitely and not risk an internal coup. Gnoman posted:Out of universe, the inspiration for the book was supposedly a complaint from another author (I'm finding conflicting information on precisely which author it was - some sources are saying Tanith Lee, others Judith Tarr) that the cover of her latest novel was as anachronistic as "Robert E. Lee holding an UZI". Turtledove was taken by the idea, but decided that the Uzi was not the proper weapon and substituted the AK. That said, speculating on in-universe reasons is entertaining. I didn’t know there were conflicting sources on that, the thanks section at the end of my copy says Judith Tarr. They also teamed up to write Household Gods about an LA woman who inhabits a Roman woman’s body. Pretty good.
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# ? Sep 26, 2021 16:31 |
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thanks for doing a let's read of this. I remember reading it in high school.
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# ? Oct 16, 2021 21:58 |
Have to break this chapter into parts because there's a lot to comment on here Chapter 4 Part I: Robert E. Lee This chapter begins with Lee meeting several of his officers who have just used the AK-47 in combat. Reviews are good. quote:With his small, bald head, long nose, and long neck, Richard Ewell inevitably reminded everyone who met him of a stork. Having lost a leg at Groveton during Second Manassas, he could now also imitate the big white bird’s one-footed stance. He was sitting at the moment, however, sitting and pounding one, fist into the other palm to emphasize his words: “We smashed ‘em, sir, smashed ‘em, I tell you.” His voice was high and thin, almost piping. James Ewell Brown "Jeb" Stuart was a highly successful cavalry commander who was responsible for multiple Confederate victories through reconnaissance and flanking maneuvers. He also performed very well at the Battle Of Chancellorsville, where he was pressed into service as an infantry commander due to the wounding of AP Hill. Accounts from contemporaries assign a large portion of the credit for winning that battle on Stuart's actions. Famed for his flamboyant manner of dress and behavior, his aggressive flair would lead to disaster. After fighting Union cavalry to a draw (rather than the victory to which he had been accustomed) in June of 1863, Stuart sought to reclaim his glory with aggressive action, possibly with a repeat of his earlier ride around the entire Union Army. Without Stuart to provide vital information on Union troop movements, the Army Of Northern Virginia blundered into US forces at a place called Gettysburg, resulting in what is likely the most critical defeat of the war. He never received a promotion beyond Major General, fought a grinding campaign against Grant's forces that rapidly eroded the remaining Confederate cavalry, and was shot by a Union private with a revolver on May 11, 1865. This would would kill him on the morning of the 12th. Richard Stoddert Ewell was a Virginian who served in combat during the Mexican-American War and in actions against the Apaches between the wars. He publicly condemned secession until Virginia seceded, at which time he resigned his commission in the US Army to join the Virginian Army and later the Confederate Army, and was the first Confederate officer of significant rank to be wounded in action. He received his commission on May 9, 1861 and was shot in the shoulder on May 31, 1861. After the First Battle Of Bull Run (Called First Manassas by the CSA), he advocated freeing and arming portions the black population of the CSA in order to achieve victory. Unlike Patrick Cleburne, he did this in private conversation with Jefferson Davis, and thus avoided significant backlash. He was (as Turtledove correctly states) shot in the leg at the Second Battle Of Bull Run (Second Manassas) resulting in the amputation of the limb. Ewell had the opportunity to take critical ground in the early stages of the Battle Of Gettysburg, but failed to for various reasons - not least of them conflicting orders from Lee. It is very likely that had he taken this ground, Gettysburg would have been a Confederate victory instead of a decisive defeat. His career continued downward from that point. He survived the war and died of pneumonia in 1872. The LeMat revolver was invented by a Frenchman in New Orleans in 1859 in partnership with Major Beauregard of the US Army. Beauregard would be one of the first US officers to switch to Confederate service. As the gun was invented immediately before the war and made primarily in Europe, it was quite rare - only 2900 or so were made, and most were intercepted by the US blockade. The most common model, and probably the sort Stuart carried, held 9 rounds of .42 ball in the cylinder. The most famous feature of the gun was the underbarrel smoothbore barrel for buckshot, which was 20 gauge (0.60")in the most common model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpYoh2yzPqw quote:“The rifles are outstanding,” General Ewell agreed. “So are the men who furnish them. If I had a drink in my hand, I’d toast them.” quote:Ewell’s pale eyes turned inward as he pondered that. “Very competently. Sedgwick’s as good a corps commander as the Federals have, and Custer--what can I say about Custer, save that he wishes he were Jeb Stuart?” Stuart smiled again, a smile the brighter for peeping out through his forest of brown beard. The raid being discussed here was a disaster historically. Kilpatrick intended to assault Richmond and rescue US prisoners of war being held in that city, but was quickly repulsed. His response to this failure was to charge further south, looting and burning as he went More than 300 Union cavalrymen became casualties, and more than a thousand were captured. To make matters worse, papers found in the possession of Ulric Dahlgren, one of Kilpatrick's subordinates, suggested that Kilpatrick intended to lynch Jefferson Davis and most of the rest of the Confederate government in addition to freeing prisoners and torching the city. Only the direct intervention of Lee, who feared retaliation against Confederate prisoners, prevented the execution of the captured cavarlymen. Kilpatrick was sent to the Western theater in disgrace, where he participated in Sherman's scorched-earth March To The Sea in Georgia. His postwar political career was hounded by charges of corruption, and he died in 1881. Rhoodie meets with Lee, and is offered the same blackberry wine that was offered to Early. quote:“I believe I set out two glasses. Would you be kind enough to pour, sir? Ah, thank you. Your very good health.” Lee took a small sip. He was pleased to see Rhoodie toss off half his glass at a swallow; wine might help loosen the fellow’s tongue. He said, “From what General Ewell tells me, the Confederacy finds itself in your debt once more. Without your timely warning, Kilpatrick’s raiders might have done far worse than they actually succeeded in accomplishing.” Lee is handling this well - not only is he trying to get Rhoodie off-balance with alcohol, but throwing all the suspicious elements right in Rhoodie's face is pretty much guaranteed to unsettle him. How will Rhoodie get out of this? quote:Rhoodie’s poker face hid whatever calculations were going on behind it. At last he said,” All right, General Lee, I will. My friends and I--everyone who belongs to America Will Break--come from a hundred and fifty years in your future.” He folded his arms across his broad chest and waited to see what Lee would make of that. Oh. He just admits it at the slightest pressure. They weren't doing a very good job of keeping it secret, but they certainly seemed to be trying. Lee asks why they didn't come sooner, to which Rhoodie explains that their time machine only works in an increment of exactly 150 years. And that they didn't manage to steal it until late 2013. This is followed by the almost offhand comment that another year would have been too late. The Union will defeat the Confederacy. quote:
There was a slave revolt in Santo Domingo in 1521 that was put down with great bloodshed, but Turtledove is more likely to be referring to the Hatian Revolution of 1791-1804 that began as a slave uprising in the French colony of Saint-Domingue. Not only is this much more recent and relevant to somebody like Lee, the slaves actually won in Hati. The French colonizers were thrown out, the Hatians successfully defended attempts at reconquest, and a republic of sorts was set up out of the formerly servile population. Equally relevant, the last stages of the uprising involved a massacre of 3000-5000 men, women, and children, which was virtually the entire remaining white population. This was commonly used as an argument that abolition was too dangerous to be considered. I cannot find anything other than RW propaganda from groups like the AWB that come close to such levels, let alone surpass it to the level that Rhoodie is suggesting. Therefore he is creating any such incidents out of whole cloth, and is counting on either unquestioning acceptance from Lee or is confident that any proofs he manufactures will be good enough to accept. This is an effective lie precisely because many opponents of abolition believed, or claimed to believe, that freeing the slaves would inevitably result in such actions. Thaddeus Stevens was a firebrand abolitionist who advocated that the purpose of the Civil War should be the eradication of the "peculiar institution" with no concessions made to former slaveowners. He was the prime proponent of the 13th amendment banning slavery, and advocated seizing the property of traitors in order to give the newly-freed blacks a leg up on building a new life. An opponent of the reconciliatory policies of Reconstruction, he was one of the loudest voices in the impeachment proceedings against Andrew Johnson in 1867. His attempts to make the party focus on ensuring the black vote failed repeatedly, and he died at the age of 76 of illness. While his death was not universally mourned, he was the third man to lie in state at the US Capitol rotunda, with black troops providing his honor guard. Few men in the North would be as horrifying a leader from a Confederate standpoint, meaning that this lie is also well chosen. Lee accepts this for now, and turns to what Rhoodie knows about the course of the war. Rhoodie explains that he only knows the OTL course of the war - what actually happened. The new timeline that is being created is as much a mystery to Rhoodie and the AWB as it is to the Confederacy. Lee responds to this by demanding the most detailed information available right now - the AK-47 has been used in only very limited ways thus far, and thus hasn't had a chance to change much. Rhoodie agrees, and they begin to break up the meeting. quote:“My pleasure, General.” Rhoodie stood to go. Lee also rose. As he did so, the pain that sometimes clogged his chest struck him a stinging blow. He tried to bear up under it, but it must have shown on his face, for Rhoodie took a step toward him and asked, “Are you all right, General?” Much to unpack here. The first is Lee's relief that his fate is not - can not be - preordained. An incredibly human thought, and a very nice touch. We also see the possibility that Lee will die sooner rather than later being raised for the first time, something that will be relevant later. By far, however, the most important exchange here is the last one. While Lee's oddly reasonable thought toward the possibility of black lawmakers stands out the most, as does Rhoodie's obvious anger that Lee is not the unthinkingly racist caricature that Rhoodie is himself, the more interesting element is perhaps more subtle. It might go unnoticed compared to the sparks starting to fly, but note the casual racism inherent in Lee's response - he takes it almost as granted that black lawmakers could only have been elected by black voters, and assumes without question that blacks being separate from whites is the natural way of the world. How realistic Lee's response is in other respects is a difficult question to answer. The historical Lee opposed the black vote unconditionally, stating that "at this time, they [black Southerners] cannot vote intelligently, and that giving them the [vote] would lead to a great deal of demagogism, and lead to embarrassments in various ways.". He also expressed "a deep-seated conviction that, at present, the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power." This would indicate that the historical Lee would not have responded to the idea of black lawmakers nearly as well as the Lee that Turtledove writes. The counter-argument, that Lee lived only a few years after abolition and thus had no opportunity to test or improve his views, or to conclude that his weasel-words "at this time" or "at present" would allow him to reject those stances with time, seems a thin reed. That said, there is no record that the historical Lee was ever given a glimpse, however twisted, into the state of affairs one hundred and fifty years in the future, which kind of has to have an effect on one's outlook. Lee ends this segment by considering telling his staff the great secret, concluding that it is a bad idea, and savoring the notion of turning the tide of history against Ulysses S. Grant. Gnoman fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 18, 2021 |
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# ? Oct 18, 2021 04:08 |
Chapter 4 Part II: Nate Caudellquote:“Here you go, First Sergeant,” Preston Kelly said. “They’re ‘most as good as new.” This little exchange perfectly illustrates the dire straits that the Confederacy is in at this point. While Union troops were generally well supplied unless they were cut off due to a combination of the Union's superiority in wealth and the fact that General George McClellan was, for all his faults, a genuine genius at logistics, the Confederates were not nearly as lucky. The southern states had far less to begin with due to the nature of their economy, and after 4 years the Union blockade is doing an excellent job of strangling their commerce. Equally important, the states that would form the CSA were not well supplied with railroads, and most of the lines that did exist were optimized for moving cash crops to the ports for export, as that was the economic lifeblood of the region. This made it very hard to move goods around. This is also a pretty good parallel to Lee's opening lines in his segment of this chapter. He reprimands Stuart on wasting leather on fancy bandoliers instead of providing a soldier with shoes, and here we get a soldier's eye view of the shoe situation. Caudell watches a baseball game for a bit before wandering over to talk to "Melvin". quote:
"They should have thinned out instead of standing in tight lines" is a common criticism directed towards armies of the past. A big amount of US mythmaking holds that the Continentals defeated the Redcoats by using dispersed riflemen to peck at and destroy the rigid lines of the Redcoats, as seen in Mel Gibson's love letter to Mel Gibson The Patriot. This is hogwash. If a tight body of men closes to bayonet range with a dispersed body, they'll sweep the enemy aside with ease. Preventing such a force from closing requires a very high density of fire - a density impossible to achieve with single-shot muzzle-loaders unless you have a densely packed line that can discharge a wall of bullets. It isn't until breech loaders that you start to see situations where a handful of men can make a massed charge suicidally dangerous. Or, in other words, the sort of formation Lewis is suggesting would be suicide with any normal weapon of the ACW - but is doable with the AK, and represents a huge step toward the sort of infantry tactics that would be developed to deal with such weapons almost 60 years later OTL. Having the "natives" recognize this almost immediately before ever seeing the new weapon in action is a good way to show that these people are not idiots just because they lived around a century and a half ago. Caudell begins to instruct his subordinates in the new plan at the first opportunity, and the value is seen immediately. quote:Having made up his mind thus, he ran into Otis Massey not five minutes later. “Makes sense to me, First Sergeant,” Massey said when Caudell was through relaying Captain Lewis’s words. “ ‘Course, rememberin’ it when them damnyankees is shootin’ at us might could take a bit o’ doin’.” The power dynamics are extremely well portrayed here. Caudell views the black man in a fairly positive way, but from an undeniable position of authority. His treatment of George here is more in the manner of a favored pet than you would give another man. Meanwhile, George is very disarmingly pleasant towards the white man who is so high above him, but locks down the second it goes toward anything that might reveal his true thoughts. From this exchange, it is unclear if his elaboration is a genuine unbending because they're closer than they should be, or a way to assure Caudell that he doesn't need to set a closer watch on George because George is really happy, honest. The comparison with Mollie will show up again soon, and I'll reserve commentary until then. Unfortunately for all concerned, Ballentine draws the attention of one of the men from the future. Lang is furious at the rifle on his back. quote:“He’s not in my company, so I can’t answer you exactly, Mr. Lang,” Caudell said, speaking as carefully as if the Rivington man were an officer. The commentary on race relations here is surprisingly nuanced. There's no attempt to downplay Confederate racism, but they view their "property" in an altogether different light from the way the AWB men do. There's the awareness that there are limits they don't dare exceeed, and they have to deal with these people in a way that you can't just slot them into an easy stereotype in the brain - there's too many seen too frequently to do otherwise. Meanwhile, the AWB men would deal with black South Africans very rarely, and can keep their attitudes "pure". Their time in the Confederacy is a game to them as much as anything else - they can finally do all the things that they've wanted to do for so long. The discussion is interrupted by smoke pouring out of a cabin. Fear of fire is quickly dispelled by noticing that the chimney had been blocked with a board - a prank. Caudell is forced to break up the ensuing assault on the prankster, and the scene ends. quote:When Sunday morning rolled around, Caudell joined most of the regiment at divine services. Chaplain William Lacy was a Presbyterian, while the majority of the men he served--Caudell among them--were Baptists, but he had proved himself a good and pious man, which counted for more than differences in creed. As the service progress, Caudell notices something odd about the hymns. George never misses a service, but his distinctive voice is absent from the singing. Some investigation reveals that George had run away because his AK got confiscated. quote:“Yup,” Caudell said. Instead of waiting for the next hymn, he drifted away from the open-air assembly. Johnson had hit the nail on the head. Not giving George Ballentine a repeater in the first place would have been one thing. But to give him one and then take it away--that was wrong. He hoped Ballentine made it over the Rapidan to freedom, too. Again, you can see the Confederate attitude towards race from both characters. Caudell finds nothing wrong with denying the rifle as a matter of course, only with revoking the "privilege" once it had been generously granted. Meanwhile, the wagon driver has no personal connection to George, and thus sees the body as just trash - an attitude that Caudell would probably share if it were just some random shot runaway. A Caudell expected, George's regiment requests and recieves a full burial service. Consumed by guilt, but unwilling to talk to an officer, he consults Mollie Bean. quote:
Here, the attudes are stated straight out - George was "like a person" because they knew him - the notion that he was a person in his own right is beyond them. Meanwhile, the notion that some are disposable and have to be "sold south" is unquestioned, because they're dealing with an abstract "them" rather than a living, breathing reality - the same sort of attitude shown by the AWB men. To be "sold south", also called "sold down the river" typically refers to selling a slave into much harder conditions - either from a comparitively comfortable position as a house servant or similar to farm labor on a plantation or else from a plantation to swamp-clearing and similar work that consumed the lives of workers like water. Even here, though, there is some connection between them and their legal inferiors that is missing with the AWB men - they are able to concieve of one of their peers in the same situation, which is unlikely for the AWB men. Here again we see Caudell (and Bean) making a connection between a lower-class white prostitute and a slave. I'm not sure where Turtledove was going with this, but it feels rather facile - the mere fact that Mollie is in the army at all points to her having far greater freedom of action than any slave, and she presents herself as being in her line of work willingly. It might work better if she were forced by circumstance or abuse into her role, but no sign of that is given. After some further discussion, Caudell decides that he might as well give Mollie some business and the scene ends. Turtledove is in rare restraint so far this book. That's two sex scenes involving a POV character, and both are fade-to-black. This is a great mercy for the reader.
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# ? Nov 7, 2021 19:20 |
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Very interesting to read this, glad you're doing it!
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# ? Nov 8, 2021 07:13 |
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Charlz Guybon posted:If you're going to do a World War series you have to do the World War series! I want to talk about Lizards! And on a semi-related note, I wish Turtledove would do a novel about Otto Skorzeny: Agent of Mossad
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# ? Nov 12, 2021 15:20 |
Unkempt posted:You know the book by an SF author named Harry where a racist travels back in time to give the confederates machine guns to try and help them win the american civil war? I vaguely remember reading that at school, and didn’t realise it was a different book. Interesting!
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# ? Nov 16, 2021 01:08 |
Sorry for the delay, been busy adjusting to a new job Chapter 4 Part I: Robert E. Lee quote:
Characterizing Grant's Wilderness campaign as being aimed at Lee's army rather than Richmond itself is dubious. While Grant did hope to bait the Army of Northern Virginia out of fortifications where they could be engaged in the field, the goal was to knock them out of the way to take the city itself instead of fighting the grinding siege that would be necessary in a repeat of McClellan's failed Peninsular Campaign. The notion that the Confederacy could survive without Richmond as long as the ANV stayed in the fight is also nonsense, although that may be calculated to please Lee's ego - historically, Grant's campaign ultimately took Richmond without annihilating Lee's forces, resulting in the surrender at Appomatax Court House six days later. quote:“May I suggest, General, that when it does come next month, you station it around Jackson’s Shop or Orange Springs, rather than farther west at Gordonsville?” Rhoodie said. “As the fight developed, Longstreet’s men nearly came too late because they had so far to travel.” What Lee describes is, in essense, exactly what happened in the historical battle. Grant was hoping to bait Lee into the field, and succeeded. Lee was, however, much more decisive and aggressive than expected, leading the battle to be fought in the unkempt Wilderness area instead of past it, giving the Confederates the advantage stated - the Union could not use their decisive artillery arm effectively. The result was a Confederate victory in the Wilderness, followed by a second victory over Grant's attempt to outflank them at Spotsylvania Court House. In response to these significant victories, Grant... backed up a little, adjusted his tactics, and kept coming. Nitroglycerine tablets are an effective means of treating many heart conditions, including an in-progress heart attack. This use was discovered in 1878. Lee ponders the map to the point of not even noticing a servant bringing his dinner. quote:Lee slid off Traveller. The horse’s grassy, earthy smell mingled with the perfume of dogwoods at last in blossom. Spring had taken a long time coming, but was finally here in full force. However high the hill is, it provides an excellent view of the Union winter encampments. quote:He lowered the telescope. “All seems quiet still in the Federal camps. Soon enough, though, those people will move.” He pointed east, toward the rank green growth of the Wilderness. “They will come by way of the fords there, Germanna and Ely’s just east of it.” James Longstreet was Lee's most senior subordinate, and probably the man Lee trusted most after the death of Thomas Jackson. Their relationship became strained after the battle at Gettysburg, where Longstreet advocated significantly different approaches to the battle than Lee took. After the crushing Confederate defeat, he was transferred to the Western theater for months before being wounded and returning to Lee not long before this book started. Longstreet survived the war and joined the Republican party and worked for the US government as a administrator and ambassador. In 1874, Longstreet was wounded while trying to prevent a large force of white supremacist milita from siezing control of the Lousiana capital in protest of a "rigged" election. He died of multiple illnesses in 1904. Unlike most Confederate generals, Longstreet is extremely unpopular with Lost Cause activists, due to his disagreements with Lee and his "treasonous" association with the Reconstruction-era government. Historically, a significant portion of the blame for the Confederate defeat has been laid on Longstreet due to his major disagreements and "sabotage" of "better" generals. In more recent years, his reputation as a tactician has undergone significant revision, and common opinion is that he was among the most able officers in the Confederate army. Ambrose Powell Hill was Thomas Jackson's top subordinate, and replaced that officer when Jackson was accidentally killed by Confederate troops. The frequent illnesess mentioned were the result of an dose of gonorrhea that he picked up in his West Point days, with both the condition itself and the complications thereof effectively incurable before the invention of antibiotics. Unlike Lee, we do in fact have contemporary sources to justify his position on slavery here - there's no evidence that he owned any, and statments from relatives that he did not and disapproved of the "peculiar institution". Hill repeatedly stated that he had no wish to survive Confederate defeat, and this wish was granted when he was shot by a Union soldier on April 2, 1865 - seven days before the end of the war. More observation of the terrain follows, with a suggestion that Grant will back off after intial sharp losses. quote:Longstreet shook his head. “I know Sam Grant. He’s never been one to back away from a fight. He will come straight at us every day he leads the Army of the Potomac.” Longstreet and Grant were old friends before the war, and that friendship resumed afterwards. While giving Lee these pills do a lot to keep Lee alive and in top fighting shape (thus serving the AWB's aims), note that they also give them yet another hold on him.
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# ? Dec 6, 2021 03:40 |
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Just as a note, there's a mistake in the text. Longstreet was born in South Carolina near the Georgia border, not North Carolina, and then at the age of nine, moved in with his aunt and uncle in Augusta, Georgia, and his appointment to West Point was from Alabama, where his mother was living. As far as I know, he had no connection to North Carolina whatsoever.
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# ? Dec 6, 2021 04:52 |
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Also Old Peter wasn't wounded out west (where he had the most fortunately timed advance of any force in the war at Chickamauga), he was wounded back in Virginia at the would-be upcoming Wilderness. And glad to see that this is back!
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# ? Dec 6, 2021 13:08 |
drat it, you're right. I accidentally transposed a few li es in what I was reading.
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# ? Dec 6, 2021 16:32 |
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Great thread. I re-read the short work Must and Shall and it holds up with the interesting premise of if Lincoln had died in 1864 while observing a battle and the Union still won but was far more vengeance prone than in our timeline. In the 1940s an FBI agent travels to New Orleans to investigate insurgent plans. Interesting twist on the usual "Confederates win" alternate history, similar to Ready for the Fatherland where a separate peace on the Eastern front in 1943 means the nazis didn't win but are still a major power in the late 70s.
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# ? Dec 6, 2021 17:04 |
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Reread Forty, Counting Down and Twenty-one Counting Up, premise of man who is 40 in 2018 going back to 1999 to try to change his past life. Was written in 1999 and had some stuff stand out for where Turtledove thought world would be in 2018: -Idea of Rolling Stones still touring considered a joke -South Park no longer culturally relevant -Inflation significant enough that $150k would only buy a compact car -Oil running out Weird moment when the guy in 1999 is 100% convinced his future self is for real as he is presented with a quarter from 2012, as such a relic would be unthinkable to counterfeit. Also has the unintentional oddity of someone going back to 1999 with no restrictions on what information he can share for several months and deciding not to mention a few things.
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# ? Dec 8, 2021 18:11 |
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I kind of liked The Road Not Taken (the link is to a pdf of the story). I just generally alien invasion/encounter stories where the scariest loving creatures are the Earth humans. Meanwhile, even though I've probably read The Guns of the South five or six times over the years, I'm really enjoying this read-through.
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# ? Dec 9, 2021 18:37 |
Chapter V: Nate Caudellquote:The drums beat on and on, not just in the 47th North Carolina but in all the III Corps’s winter quarters. The hoarse, monotonous sound warned of battle to come. The second sentence of this chapter is pretty solid, I think. The reader knows what's coming, but this gives it a sense of ominousness. The attention to Nate's gear is a nice detail. because it shows just how little the Confederates have (and, thus, how dependent they are on the AWB). Everything Nate has fits in a simple blanket bundle, and without the MREs he would have a pitifully tiny amount of food. There is a subtle indication of the advantages of the AK here - a standard ammunition loadout for a Civil War soldier was one cartridge box containing 40 paper cartridges, with a second pouch worn if heavy fighting was expected. Nate casually packs 120 rounds without thinking about it. Part of this is the unnaturally good supply situation, but the compactness and convenience of carrying loaded magazines also plays a part. quote:The weather was fine and mild. A better day to march could hardly have been imagined. As Caudell had hoped, his new repeater seemed to weigh nothing. He looked back over his shoulder. That gray serpent seemed to have no end, as regiment after regiment followed the 47th North Carolina. But other, even longer, snakes, these clad in blue, surely lay ahead. This section of the book takes place in the same area as the historical opening to the Battle Of The Wilderness, along the Orange Turnpike and the Brock Road intersection. Comparisons to the historical battle will be made as appropriate. The Battle Cry of Freedom was a popular abolitionist and Union anthem written in 1862, which was adapted for the Confederate cause. Both versions are linked below. Union https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ-Rhuc7PyU Confederate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdMLb3eiWWg The march continues until twilight. Caudell details men to collect water and firewood, and those who haven't already eaten or discarded their rations prepare meals. quote:A frying pan was not the ideal instrument for boiling water, but it was what Caudell had, and he managed. Then he opened one of the metallic ration packs and poured the water over it. A couple of minutes later, he was spooning up noodles and ground meat in tomato sauce. He’d had that supper before, and liked it. After a day on the march, he was hungry enough to lick the inside of the pack clean. Little of importance here, but giving some time to this scene helps to build tension before the battle, and gives a greater appearance that these are real people. In the morning, they are sent into the wilderness after another few hours march. quote:
This passage does a pretty solid job of showing this fight to be a hell of a mess. Nobody knows where anybody is, the advantage of the AK is as much in stealth as it is in ammunition capacity, rate of fire, or accuracy, and the new superweapon is not making this an easy one-sided victory. It is an advantage, but the Confederates are taking losses of their own. As fighting progresses, more cavalrymen are flushed from cover and taken down or captured. quote:They drove the Federals past Parker’s Store and the handful of houses that huddled in the clearing with it. The open space gave the Confederates a chance to dress their lines a little; victory had left them about as disorganized as defeat had the Yankees. Caudell almost stumbled over Captain Lewis. “What are we aiming to do now, sir?” he asked. As mentioned earlier, the historical fighting centered around the Orange Turnpike and Brock Road intersection, but the actual Confederate forces reached it shortly after noon, at which time Union forces under General George Getty were able to contest it, and the Confederates were unable to secure the ground, taking position significantly to the west. By dawn of May 6, Union forces were pressing hard, the Confederate forces were breaking, General A. P. Hill was personally manning artillery in preparation for a last stand, and his portion of the Confederate Army was on the brink of annihilation. It was at this time that General Longstreet arrived with reinforcements. A successful flanking maneuver led by Longstreet himself was able to rout the Union forces, but at a cost - Confederate troops mistook Longstreet's group for high ranking Union officers and opened fire, wounding Longstreet and killing one of his subordinates. This stalled the counterattack, and Lee was forced to take direct command - and the time it took to do so made resuming the counterattack impossible before Hancock had managed to take a formidable defensive position in field fortifications. With both sides unable to annihilate the enemy army, Grant elected to withdraw the next day and attack along a different route, allowing the Confederacy to claim a victory of possession - they kept the ground. The wild advance through the woods meets resistance, but not much. quote:Cheers came from just ahead. Caudell wondered why; the fight seemed no different now from what it had been all along--confusing, exhilarating, and terrifying at the same time. Then, without warning, he found himself out of the underbrush and standing in the middle of a dirt road which had recently seen heavy traffic, a dirt road that, by the sun, ran north instead of east. quote:The horsemen--officers, some of them, by their fancy trappings--rode forward again, more slowly now, to see just what sort of barrier the Confederates had built and how many of them crouched behind it. Caudell took careful aim at the lead man, whose gray hair said he might be of high rank. The range was long, close to a quarter mile, but worth a try. He rested the barrel of the rifle on the log in front of him, took a deep breath, let it out, pulled the trigger. In Turtledove's version, Hill wins the race - he gets the crossroad first, and it is the Union that has to try to take it by force. A quarter-mile is around 400 meters. That's not an easy shot with either weapon, but far easier with the AK. The ballistic drop is significant - almost 60 inches - but the AK's ladder sight can be readily and quickly adjusted for that, and the flight time is short. On the Springfield rifle-musket, the flip-up sights don't give great precision, while the Enfield's sights need more fiddling at such extreme range. Ballistically, a round from an AK will drop around a meter and a half in the .7 seconds it takes to fly that distance, while a rifle-musket round would drop about three meters in the 1 second it takes to fly. This not only increases the amount of aiming correction you have to do (aided by the sights, but it still matters), but gives extra time for the target's motion to generate a miss. Not a deliberate dodge, of course, but if you gauge the speed wrong or his horse gets spooked or such, that extra .3 seconds matters. The AK is also more mechanically accurate in other ways, but that's a bit harder to explain. quote:Men hurried up the road and north through the woods. An ammunition wagon reached the crossroads. Its horses were lathered and blowing. Caudell and several other soldiers helped the driver unload crate after crate of cartridges. The wagon also carried hatchets and shovels. The driver passed those out, too, so the men could strengthen the breastworks in whatever time was left before the enemy descended on them. This is a good time to bring up an issue that Turtledove kind of handwaves away. Comparing dimensions of wagons of the period to the dimensions of ammunition packaging, you probably get around 80,000 rounds in each wagon. Nate started the march with 120 rounds, and seems to have already used most of it. A single infantry regiment is supposed to contain a thousand men, so that basic load would be 120,000 rounds. Meaning you use 3 wagons (even if it is loaded entirely with ammo) to give basic supply for two regiments. The Confederates brought 42 infantry regiments to the Wilderness. Even if you assume they're down to half strength, you need 8 pure-ammo wagons to supply them for the start, plus multiple other loads of ammo for in-battle resupply. That means you're going to need 30-40 wagonloads just to supply ammunition to the infantry, not counting what you need to bring up food, tools, artillery ammunition, whatever replacement clothing that can be scrounged up, etc. Even with the AWB maintaining steady deliveries to Rivington from the future, actually distributing this to the armies in the field is a nightmarish task. Fortunately for Caudell, not all the crates have useless ammunition. quote:“Here’s the right ones!” somebody shouted, his voice rising in relief. Caudell hurried over, grabbed a couple of magazines, and stuffed them into his pockets. The firing was getting closer in a hurry, not just AK-47s but also the familiar deep roar of Springfields. Under the gunfire came the tramp of marching men. Case in point - Nate just dumped somewhere between 30 and 60 rounds in seconds. He had reason to, and the thought of automatic rifle fire into that packed a body of troops is the stuff of nightmares, but that's the amount of ammo you'd expect to last a soldier for an entire battle in that era. Union forces advancing in cover to either side threaten to outflank the fortifications, and artillery begins to open up. Reinforcements come up just in time to silence the guns, and the fighting starts to die down. quote:Not all the Yankees had been smashed; firing continued in the woods as knots of soldiers refused to give ground. On a more open battlefield, that would have been impossible; in the Wilderness’s thickets and tangles and clumps of bushes, men could find places to make a stand even after their comrades had given way. But the Confederates had gained a long stretch of the Brock Road. As if the automatic rifles and cannon were not enough, there's fire to contend with.
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# ? Dec 18, 2021 11:16 |
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Caudell refers to the AK magazines as banana clips a bunch (haha!) throughout this segment, but I'm curious -- for a poor Southerner in the 1860s, how much of a familiarity with actual bananas would he have? My cursory research tells me that bananas were a rare treat for the elite even after the war, but maybe he knew *of* them more than he had actually tried one. Or maybe the Rivington men called it that?
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# ? Dec 19, 2021 05:33 |
ninjahedgehog posted:Caudell refers to the AK magazines as banana clips a bunch (haha!) throughout this segment, but I'm curious -- for a poor Southerner in the 1860s, how much of a familiarity with actual bananas would he have? My cursory research tells me that bananas were a rare treat for the elite even after the war, but maybe he knew *of* them more than he had actually tried one. Or maybe the Rivington men called it that? The latter, as it happens. Nice question, though - I never even thought to wonder how common bananas were in the ACW era. quote:Chapter 2: Nate Caudell ((Also, if it wasn't clear, that wasn't the entire chapter. Trimmed for length, and will get the rest up a little later.)) Gnoman fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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# ? Dec 19, 2021 12:17 |
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Thanks for posting these. Turtledove's always something of a guilty pleasure. I wish I knew how he churns out so many words.
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# ? Dec 19, 2021 14:08 |
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Gnoman posted:The latter, as it happens. Nice question, though - I never even thought to wonder how common bananas were in the ACW era. They weren't. The first big shipment of bananas to the US was in 1870, when Lorenzo Dow Baker shipped some from Jamaica to New Jersey. Baker would go on and become one of the founders of Boston Fruit, which would go on to become United Fruit, Before United Fruit and companies like i built up the infrastructure, there was really no way to ship tropical fruit to the US and move it through the country before it went bad,
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# ? Dec 19, 2021 16:21 |
Chapter V: Nate Caudell (part 2)quote:“As you were, gentlemen, please.” Lee peered north up the Brock Road toward the blue-clad bodies that corduroyed it like so many planks. “Those people are paying dearly for every acre of Wilderness they hold,” he remarked as he turned to look south. “Henry, push such forces as you can spare down along this road, if you please. General Hancock will be along shortly, unless I miss my guess.” While I can see the appeal, the notion of reloading a rifle musket on the run feels dubious to me. Even if you stop to ram, it is a very long weapon to be trying to shove loose powder and bullet in one end of while running. In this situation, a charge isn't the absolute worst possible solution, but it isn't a good one. Beyond that, it is good to note that the AK didn't prevent the troops from getting off a volley, nor does it rob the minee ball of the ability to kill. More troops pour in. quote:He was none too soon, for more Federals tramped up the Brock Road a few minutes later. The crossfire would have chewed him to pieces. The bluecoats came to a ragged halt when they saw what had happened to the first attacking party, but then moved ahead all the same. The South had gone into the war doubting Yankee courage. After three years of fighting, few in the Army of Northern Virginia doubted it anymore. This is a better tactic, but there's no good tactic for this particular tactical solution. Might be the least bad one, though. This attack fares little better than the first, and is followed by another, and another. quote:Between assaults up the roadway, he filled banana clips, chewed on corn bread and salt pork, and drank from his canteen. The water was warm and turbid. It went down like champagne even so. He and his companions smoked and listened to the gunfire all around and tried to guess how the fighting was going away from their little piece of it. The carnage that you would get from pressing an entire regiment (nominally a thousand men, and a US regiment this early in the campaigning season would be a lot closer to that than normal) against a well-manned fortified position armed with modern autoloading weaponry is a horrifying thought. All war is terrible, but a mismatch like this one is considerably beyond that - closer to some of the horrors against civilians from the middle part of the last century than a real fight. Nate can hear Federal forces trying to break around to the flanks and being repulsed by the skirmish line, and a third regiment attacks. It fares no better than the first, even if they're managing to inflict real casualties by sheer number of rifles. quote:Caudell and his companions on the firing line raised a tired cheer to see them go. Dead and wounded men were thick on the ground behind the barricade, too, even if the Yankees had never come close to reaching it. The soldiers gave what rough first aid they could, and sent to the rear men who could walk. Hospital stewards, some wearing green sashes as their Federal counterparts did, came forward to haul off on stretchers men too badly hurt to travel on their own. This engagement started around noon. Sunset comes at around 20:00 (8 PM) in Virginia in May. Even if we assume this is a couple of hours before actual sunset, they've been at this for a long, long time. Also a nice touch here - the Confederate troops leap to rescue the men they'd just been killing, because what kind of man would abandone helpless wounded to a horrible death by fire if it can be avoided? This fourth regiment doesn't advance as readily, and is greatly slowed by the heaped bodies left by the first three attacks. Until events force their hands. quote:Then, drowning cries and screams alike, a great new eruption of gunfire broke out to the south. The Federals on the Brock Road looked back over their shoulders in surprise and alarm. Even their officers stopped urging them forward for a moment. With no officer to take over, Caudell manages the prisoners. Said prisoners are promptly looted of everything they're carrying before being sent onward. No further attack comes, though the signs of fighting can be heard in both directions. quote:The sun sank, a blood-red ball looking down on blood through tangled branches and curls of smoke from gunpowder and brushfires. The fifth Yankee attack had not come. As darkness gathered, the sound of fighting to north and south began to slacken. It also eased in the woods east of the Brock Road, though it never died away altogether, and would flare up every so often in a brief spasm of ferocity. With great difficulty, they manage to make their way to their own men. One of his first concerns is to find water. quote:He found the water by stepping into it. He took off his shoes and bathed his tired feet before he filled the canteen. Once he’d drunk, he felt better. He knew his comrades were only a few yards away, knew tens of thousands of Federals and Confederates were within a few miles, but for all he could see of them, he might as well have been alone in the Wilderness. At the time of the Battle Of The Wilderness, II Corps of the Army Of The Potomac contained four divisions, and was recorded to have 28,333 at the end of April. Total Union forces available for the Wilderness Campaign was just under 113,000 men, meaning that Faribult and his superiors are hoping to wipe out nearly a quarter of the forces against them. To put this even more into perspective, the historical battle of the Wilderness cost the US 2246 Killed In Action and 12000 Wounded In Action over the course of the entire campaign. At Antietam, the bloodiest single day of the war, the US suffered 2108 KIA and 9500 WIA. At Gettysburg, the bloodiest battle of the war, the Union lost 3155 and 14,500. The fighting Caudell personally witnessed, where four regiments were smashed, probably puts this days fighting into the company of those battles, but that's nothing to what their ambition is to be. Taking out the entire II Corps would hurt the Union almost as badly as the war's two biggest battles combined did, in an unmitigated defeat instead of a strategic victory (Antietam) or a decisive one (Gettysburg). The papers would have a field day with that! Faribault heads onward to try figuring out where all his men are and make sure everybody knows the plan for tomorrow. Caudell and the rest sleep. quote:The long roll woke him early the next morning, or so he thought until he realized where he was. The rattle was not drumsticks on snares; it was gunfire, the reports bunched tighter together than the fastest drummer could hurry his sticks. The fighting had begun again, even if sunrise still lay ahead. The ambush goes a long way toward neutralizing his rate of fire. It does nothing to neutralize the advantage of the improved powder - he engages the ambushers by muzzle flashes and drives them off. quote:He rejoined Otis Massey and several other soldiers with whom he’d spent the night. The firing ahead grew ever more intense. A few minutes later, he discovered why: the bluecoats were fighting from behind a breastwork of their own. Hereabouts, it stood at the far edge of a cleared space. Even with the AK-47 in his hands, his mouth went dry at the prospect of charging those blazing rifles. The interesting thing here is that troops in good fortifications are entirely capable of putting up a fight with muzzle-loaders, even against the AK. Despite the huge superiority it offers, the AK does not magic away the defender's advantage, any more than it prevented the massed fire of the earlier attacks from killing many Confederates in their own fort.
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# ? Jan 15, 2022 10:22 |
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Another good write up. Although the war concludes quickly, seems likely the Union would have had significant mutinies if it had continued much longer. Kinda wonder how long CSA’s tech advantage would have held, as so many people know about the time travel gotta assume USA and European powers would be crawling the south offering cash for Rivington artifacts.
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# ? Jan 19, 2022 19:34 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 20:14 |
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Hyrax Attack! posted:Another good write up. Although the war concludes quickly, seems likely the Union would have had significant mutinies if it had continued much longer. That point or one like it is addressed later in the book.
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# ? Jan 19, 2022 19:55 |