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The Lord Bude posted:um no? there is a kiss involved, and they apologise and explain that they learned it that way because they initially learned to use the weaves on their wives. There is nothing whatsoever in the text to suggest anything more than that. And Logain does not rape the Aes Sedai, the text explicitly says she decided to try and seduce him for strategic purposes. Eh, the scene when Logain bonds Toveine has some fairly explicitly orgasmic language, and obviously it was done without consent. quote:Warmth flooded through her. More than warmth. She was melted honey inside, bubbling honey, rushing toward the boil. She was a harpstring, vibrating faster and faster, vibrating to invisibility and faster still. She was a thin crystal vase, quivering on the brink of shattering. The harpstring broke; the vase shattered. So that's not great. After that, the Aes Sedai are essentially prisoners at the Black Tower. They did come there with the mission of gentling/killing every one there - being taken prisoner is not exactly an excessive reaction. And at least for Logain, there's never any implication of sexual violence past the bonding scene. One of the Aes Sedai does seduce him, but it takes her several days of trying to even get it to happen and it's never implied that she is doing it out of anything but her own choice. It's definitely a huge mischaracterization to refer to the Aes Sedai sworn to Rand as a "harem of slaves". Yeah, they swore an oath of obedience. It's a thing that happens all over the place in these books. Oaths are are basic part of the structure of the world, and are taken very seriously. Rand takes oaths from about a bajillion people throughout the series - basically every noble in Tear, Cairhien, Illian, Arad Doman, etc. The only real difference with the Aes Sedai is that Verin semi-compels some of them into taking that oath (not that Rand knows about that). Gully Foyle fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Oct 16, 2021 |
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Oct 16, 2021 18:29
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Gully Foyle posted:The only real difference with the Aes Sedai is that Verin semi-compels some of them into taking that oath (not that Rand knows about that).
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Oct 17, 2021 05:49
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bio347 posted:I'd offer that the other difference with Aes Sedai is that (for the non-Black Ajah, at least) the First Oath compels them to actually keep their oath to Rand whereas some poo poo-rear end Tear noble can swear the oath and then immediately go back to doing whatever they want once the Dragon isn't looking. Which didn't work out too well for Colavaere Saighan. Putting the Aes Sedai under sworn oath was still a good idea because as you point out, only a Black sister could then break their oath.
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Oct 17, 2021 09:52
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bio347 posted:I'd offer that the other difference with Aes Sedai is that (for the non-Black Ajah, at least) the First Oath compels them to actually keep their oath to Rand whereas some poo poo-rear end Tear noble can swear the oath and then immediately go back to doing whatever they want once the Dragon isn't looking. Hmmm, I would argue that the First Oath only would apply at the time the oath was taken. That is, the Aes Sedai taking the oath has to truly believe that they will keep it at the time they swear. If something happens later on that leads them to break their oath of obedience, that doesn't mean they didn't tell the truth at the time they swore to obey. I don't think their future actions are constrained by their past words through the First Oath - they just have to believe the words when they say them. Like, an Aes Sedai could say something like "I vow I will eggs for breakfast tomorrow". As long as they believe that is true, the First Oath lets them make that vow. I don't think the First Oath would then force them to actually eat eggs. This is all speculation, I don't think there's an example in the books either way.
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Oct 17, 2021 16:31
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Gully Foyle posted:Hmmm, I would argue that the First Oath only would apply at the time the oath was taken. That is, the Aes Sedai taking the oath has to truly believe that they will keep it at the time they swear. I thought all the poo poo that happens with the shaido and the oath rod and the red/black ajah psycho shows this isn’t the case though? She seems physically constrained by her oath
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Oct 17, 2021 16:49
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Get hit in the head hard enough and you may forget you made the oath, but I imagine you would be compelled to eat eggs as your next meal after midnight or dawn, whatever is your belief of breakfast. You probably could not eat anything else, like that one who was choking due to contradicting instructions.
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Oct 17, 2021 16:54
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buffalo all day posted:I thought all the poo poo that happens with the shaido and the oath rod and the red/black ajah psycho shows this isn’t the case though? She seems physically constrained by her oath That's completely different. Galine made an Oath on the Oath Rod to obey Sevanna/Therava etc. She is compelled to obey because that oath was sworn on the Oath Rod (well, an Oath Rod at least). The oath that the Aes Sedai made to Rand was not done on an Oath Rod. Yes, they are constrained to "speak no word that is not true", but does that mean that any ordinary oath is unbreakable? I would argue not. As long as they accept the consequences of breaking that oath (for instance, giving up their "hope of salvation and rebirth"), I would argue they could break the oath they swore to Rand. Submarine Sandpaper posted:Get hit in the head hard enough and you may forget you made the oath, but I imagine you would be compelled to eat eggs as your next meal after midnight or dawn, whatever is your belief of breakfast. You probably could not eat anything else, like that one who was choking due to contradicting instructions. That would apply if the Aes Sedai made that vow to eat eggs for breakfast on the Oath Rod. I'm talking about how an ordinary vow is treated considering the Oath to tell the truth.
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Oct 17, 2021 17:58
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Yes, which is why they are always ambiguous when they speak. The belief of eggs for breakfast is an oath to have eggs. A real dumb belief when a "likely eggs" isn't binding
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Oct 17, 2021 18:23
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I finally got around to reading the prologue that came out with some versions of the EOTW I think, and I have to say, maybe I ragged on the clip being too dramatic and dark or whatever but compared the endless details of the various families foibles and poo poo and sort of imposed goofy simplicity you read there (maybe thats how the entire book is, its been years since I read it), it might be an improvement.
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Oct 17, 2021 18:33
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Beonin swore an oath of fealty to Egwene, and then decided it didn't count after Egwene was captured by the Tower, so they can work around their oaths.
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Oct 17, 2021 19:26
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the text implies on several occasions that because of the first oath, An Aes Sedai can't break an oath that they swear; including in the PoV of an Aes Sedai.Ardlen posted:Beonin swore an oath of fealty to Egwene, and then decided it didn't count after Egwene was captured by the Tower, so they can work around their oaths. And then when Egwene challenged her logic, she was caught by the first oath and had no choice but to obey Egwene - this is proof that the first Oath prevents them from breaking an oath (though as with lying by ommision, you can get around it)
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Oct 17, 2021 19:28
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Yeah, it's down to interpretation and what actual oath you make. The black ajah oath to "prepare for the day of the Great Lord's return" obviously let Verin make all of her preparations- They were preparations, just not designed to help the dark one.
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Oct 17, 2021 19:42
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Gwaihir posted:Yeah, it's down to interpretation and what actual oath you make. The black ajah oath to "prepare for the day of the Great Lord's return" obviously let Verin make all of her preparations- They were preparations, just not designed to help the dark one. Also how she was able spill the beans on the Black Ajah, since she was to "Serve him until the hour of her death" and just gave all the info after poisoning herself with less than hour to live.
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Oct 17, 2021 20:30
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In your example where someones swears they will do something then dont do it, i assume would kill them the same way it nearly killed that infiltrator in the white tower
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Oct 17, 2021 20:59
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It's also textual that the first-sworn Salidar Aes Sedai spent a bunch of time offscreen arguing if, by the First Oath, they could somehow get out of or around it. They concluded no, and decided the best way would be to actually wholeheartedly honour their oath, but I suppose they were still within Rand's ta'veren AoE at the time so that may be somewhat suspect. Presumably one could get by with the very most minimum, to-the-letter obedience or whatever. You could also consider Moiraine after swearing the same oath, though she definitely had ulterior motives.
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Oct 18, 2021 07:44
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I really like the scene where Rand orders her out of a tent because she's too upset. He tells her to go outside and wait until she's cooled off. Needing to obey it, then having to judge your own emotions to convince yourself you're calm enough to go back in (probably getting angrier at the fact you have to because he said so) is a funny image.
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Oct 18, 2021 08:10
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bio347 posted:It's also textual that the first-sworn Salidar Aes Sedai spent a bunch of time offscreen arguing if, by the First Oath, they could somehow get out of or around it. They concluded no, and decided the best way would be to actually wholeheartedly honour their oath, but I suppose they were still within Rand's ta'veren AoE at the time so that may be somewhat suspect. Presumably one could get by with the very most minimum, to-the-letter obedience or whatever. Notably, Verin was among those first Aes Sedai who received the "Kneel. Or you will be knelt." speech. And when she decided to just leave Rand after that huge fight with the Trollocs in book 11, none of the other Aes Sedai seemed to take this as a sign that she was Black and thus had betrayed her oath.
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Oct 18, 2021 09:09
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Yeah I'm just rereading and in Book 7 they debate the oath and specifically say that by the First Oath they need to fulfill not just the letter but the spirit of the oath they've taken.Atlas Hugged posted:I want to live in the alternate timeline where Gene Wolfe was selected to finish the novel. The guy served in Korea and is probably the best American fantasy author in history and was very good at tying plots together. I think the dialog between the Dark One and Rand in his hands might actually have ended up better than how Jordan had originally intended it. What Jordan did so well was get you feeling the chaos of a battle, how isolated you can feel and how little you can do to direct the situation you're in. I actually think that Sanderson's style probably suited the Field of Merrilor better though, because of how intricate the moving pieces in that battle end up being. Jordan's typical ambiguity and confusion would have potentially led to an unintelligible mess there. I will say, I don't know whether Aviendha through the arches was Jordan or Sanderson, but when I read that in Towers of Midnight I think I ended up going back and reading it two or three times more to make sure I'd actually read what I'd read. That scene hit me like a truck. To me, it's probably the highest point for the series since Rand doing the same in book 4.
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Oct 18, 2021 10:41
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Natural 20 posted:Yeah I'm just rereading and in Book 7 they debate the oath and specifically say that by the First Oath they need to fulfill not just the letter but the spirit of the oath they've taken. This could also be an instance of belief making reality, so to speak. The Oaths are not unfailing, as you can still say an untruth if you yourself believe it to be true. And so if the sisters believe that not upholding their oath to Rand would be tantamount to lying, the First Oath might prevent them from violating their sworn fealty on account of that making their past statements a lie. Natural 20 posted:What Jordan did so well was get you feeling the chaos of a battle, how isolated you can feel and how little you can do to direct the situation you're in. I actually think that Sanderson's style probably suited the Field of Merrilor better though, because of how intricate the moving pieces in that battle end up being. Jordan's typical ambiguity and confusion would have potentially led to an unintelligible mess there. In general, Jordan was much better than Sanderson on writing big battle scenes. Even stuff like the assault on the Tower in Way if Kings or the battle for the Oathgate in Words of Radiance can't compete with Dumai's Wells. But both were imho equally good at writing action scenes, even if they wrote them quite differently. That said, the Last Battle was confusing enough in parts, just because there were obviously so many different threads/characters to follow. Basically every single PoV character still alive participated in Tarmon Gai'don. I'm not sure whether Jordan could have written it less confusing. The arches were always a highlight in the series, even though I think reading Aviendha's experience with it is somehow quite painful to read. It's a very grim picture being painted... Luckily, the real timeline doesn't include that particular outcome.
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Oct 18, 2021 11:15
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Nitrousoxide posted:Also how she was able spill the beans on the Black Ajah, since she was to "Serve him until the hour of her death" and just gave all the info after poisoning herself with less than hour to live. The Dark One really got hosed over by someone punching up his evil contracts with flowery language
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Oct 18, 2021 15:45
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Chomposaur posted:The Dark One really got hosed over by someone punching up his evil contracts with flowery language stunning that he couldnt get better legal assistance
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Oct 18, 2021 15:47
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Or maybe the loopholes are the point 🤔
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Oct 18, 2021 16:27
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Natural 20 posted:I will say, I don't know whether Aviendha through the arches was Jordan or Sanderson, but when I read that in Towers of Midnight I think I ended up going back and reading it two or three times more to make sure I'd actually read what I'd read. That scene hit me like a truck. To me, it's probably the highest point for the series since Rand doing the same in book 4. I remember reading Sanderson suggested it and Harriet was initially not too keen on the idea, but let him try it to see how it went. Once she read what he had written though, she had a change of heart.
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Oct 18, 2021 17:09
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He wasn’t particularly concerned with getting competent employees. He wasn’t particularly concerned with actually winning for that matter.
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Oct 18, 2021 17:11
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Now I'm imagining the Dark One as Trump who just wanted to break the seal to get a reality TV show in the Age of Legends but it all just snowballed into a bunch of folks wanting to make him master of the weave.
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Oct 18, 2021 17:16
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Torrannor posted:Notably, Verin was among those first Aes Sedai who received the "Kneel. Or you will be knelt." speech. And when she decided to just leave Rand after that huge fight with the Trollocs in book 11, none of the other Aes Sedai seemed to take this as a sign that she was Black and thus had betrayed her oath. She swore to serve Rand, if an Aes Sedai believes that leaving to go do something away from him is what's needed to serve him she would still be following the oath she gave. It's why they don't work to get people to trust them, as long as they can convince themselves of something it's not breaking the oath.
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Oct 18, 2021 17:24
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latinotwink1997 posted:I remember reading Sanderson suggested it and Harriet was initially not too keen on the idea, but let him try it to see how it went. Once she read what he had written though, she had a change of heart. that's crazy, good for him -- it was maybe the most emotionally affecting sequence in the books, pound for pound, for me the initial walk through the pillars is more of a series-defining moment but the sudden flash-forwards to realize that, even when they win, they still lose in the most horrific way is such a big shock eke out fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 18, 2021 |
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Oct 18, 2021 17:40
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:shaidar haran gonna be giving out those toothy smiles I like this art of Shaidar Haran by Ariel Burgess. I'm still undecided if it's silly or creepy.  The show's Myddraal look great, though.
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Oct 18, 2021 18:40
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Invalid Validation posted:He wasn’t particularly concerned with getting competent employees. He wasn’t particularly concerned with actually winning for that matter. The different "forces of evil" all have their own lane in which they operate. The Dark One' was to always have an aspect of treachery in their workings, which is also why he never punished anyone for not working together, and rewarded the most backstabbing among his followers. The treachery was integral to his power in the world. Maybe the most important aspect of it. Mashadar and the winds in the ways never really require an Oath or any kind of human interaction to just start ripping the poo poo out of people. If the goal was just to win, the most obvious answer is to jack Rand the moment they're all free and Ishy is out of the picture.
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Oct 18, 2021 19:16
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Although I guess the dark one wins most of the time which is why this time is different.
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Oct 18, 2021 19:20
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The dark one wins for long stretches when his “prison” is “sealed” ie, everyone else is locked away from him and he can get back to his painting without having literal madmen and women calling him up to gossip. He hired a fade as a social secretary to try and teach the various maniacs to queue their requests.
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Oct 18, 2021 20:12
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https://twitter.com/TheWheelOfTime/status/1450179081694187526?s=20 some new stuff here inc. thom with a guitar and...whitecloaks(?)
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Oct 18, 2021 20:27
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nynaeve with a sword ?!?! Looks like Moiraine is doing some tai chi motions there with her casting
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Oct 18, 2021 20:33
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Nitrousoxide posted:Didn't Rand describe the Dark One's taint as "oily"? They could do something with that to apply different effects that will change after the cleansing. this will never stop being funny
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Oct 18, 2021 20:43
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Torrannor posted:Dumai's Wells I want to series to survive just to see this. One of my favorite parts of the entire series. I keep realizing I do not remember anything from the last 3 books. I need to finish my re-read one of these days. I burned through 1-6 last year but stopped at 7.
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Oct 18, 2021 21:19
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The production value on this show keeps blowing me away. Even if the story changes and acting are pants it's still gonna be really cool getting to see these places and peoples fully realised on screen
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Oct 18, 2021 21:22
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buffalo all day posted:https://twitter.com/TheWheelOfTime/status/1450179081694187526?s=20 drat, Nynaeve's braid flip at 24 seconds is cool.
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Oct 18, 2021 21:23
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I think that’s an Aussie knife vs a sword. I want Dumai’s Wells to have Tarantino levels of gratuitous blood spatter
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Oct 18, 2021 21:32
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calandryll posted:I want to series to survive just to see this. One of my favorite parts of the entire series. I have several scenes like this, but I'm pretty sure we all get to see Mat gently caress up some rich boys so that should hold me over.
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Oct 18, 2021 21:49
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buffalo all day posted:https://twitter.com/TheWheelOfTime/status/1450179081694187526?s=20 Moiraine never stood before the Hall of the Tower in the main series, so that's interesting to see. I can't imagine that they'd do flashbacks to things that happened in New Spring.
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Oct 18, 2021 22:24
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