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CaptainACAB posted:This is a whole lot of Zenzian speculation based on entirely contradictory evidence but ok sure. It's in those leaked documents. I don't base anything on Zenz or even really listen to him because he's full of poo poo, and clearly has his own agenda that doesn't depend on what's true or not. Like I get it you're running to c-spam to bitch about being disagreed with (as if they know anything more about China, wow you read something on grayzone such a China expert) but, I didn't say genocide (I just don't use the word, I don't have an opinion here.) I said arbitrarily detain people of a specific ethnicity who haven't actually committed a crime, which is true from the party's own mouth. Also I'm not a lib.
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Nov 14, 2021 11:20
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BrainDance posted:It's in those leaked documents. I don't base anything on Zenz or even really listen to him because he's full of poo poo, and clearly has his own agenda that doesn't depend on what's true or not. I actually read them and they say that nowhere and.in fact one of the papers is entirely about the importance of evidence and verification. Your claims are completely contradicted by your own "evidence" And you most certainly are a lib. Or worse, given your dedication to Langley's propaganda. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 14, 2021 11:33
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I'm sure the guy who got sentenced to ten years prison for 'telling his coworker not to watch porn' was rigorously investigated, and then... well obviously he didn't have a fair trial all, but even if he did that's not even the big issue there.
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Nov 14, 2021 12:03
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Ah, yes, I know when I run a 'vocational school and skills center', I make sure everyone adheres to strict secrecy.
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Nov 14, 2021 12:09
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I live in china, I''ve been to xinjiang. China has much more respect for it's minorities than america. its cultural autonomous regions are governed by minorities, even when han chinese are a majority (like in inner mongolia). going to these autonomous regions, I was immediately struck by how much of the minorities language you see everywhere, especially in publically owned places such as governmental buildings or public transit. within china, xinjiang is a huge tourist spot and uigher culture is celebrated. you could argue it's a bit kitchy or exploitative, but promoting a culture and people is an extremely odd thing to do for a government seemingly intent on "cultural genocide"
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Nov 14, 2021 16:05
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Mirello posted:I live in china, I''ve been to xinjiang. China has much more respect for it's minorities than america. its cultural autonomous regions are governed by minorities, even when han chinese are a majority (like in inner mongolia). going to these autonomous regions, I was immediately struck by how much of the minorities language you see everywhere, especially in publically owned places such as governmental buildings or public transit. within china, xinjiang is a huge tourist spot and uigher culture is celebrated. you could argue it's a bit kitchy or exploitative, but promoting a culture and people is an extremely odd thing to do for a government seemingly intent on "cultural genocide" Nothing says "celebrating culture" like removing the domes from the mosques to make them "more Chinese."
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Nov 14, 2021 16:13
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Mirello posted:I live in china, I''ve been to xinjiang. China has much more respect for it's minorities than america. its cultural autonomous regions are governed by minorities, even when han chinese are a majority (like in inner mongolia). going to these autonomous regions, I was immediately struck by how much of the minorities language you see everywhere, especially in publically owned places such as governmental buildings or public transit. within china, xinjiang is a huge tourist spot and uigher culture is celebrated. you could argue it's a bit kitchy or exploitative, but promoting a culture and people is an extremely odd thing to do for a government seemingly intent on "cultural genocide"  That's a hell of a claim you have there.
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Nov 14, 2021 16:16
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I mean once again from the top, the specific charge against the CCP is not that it is exterminating the Uyghur people or entirely removing their culture, it is that it has embarked upon a coercive campaign to replace and remold the Uyghur culture that previously existed into one that does not challenge or contain spaces for which one might form the ideas of having a separate identity from the CCP's vision of China or of challenging the authority of the CCP.
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Nov 14, 2021 16:23
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Alchenar posted:I mean once again from the top, the specific charge against the CCP is not that it is exterminating the Uyghur people or entirely removing their culture, it is that it has embarked upon a coercive campaign to replace and remold the Uyghur culture that previously existed into one that does not challenge or contain spaces for which one might form the ideas of having a separate identity from the CCP's vision of China or of challenging the authority of the CCP. If the end result of this is the destruction of their culture anyway, how much difference does it really make?
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Nov 14, 2021 16:36
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:If the end result of this is the destruction of their culture anyway, how much difference does it really make? Oh I don't believe in playing Ship of Theseus games about whether the culture is 'changed' or 'destroyed' when we are talking about buldozing thousands of places of worship and putting millions of people through 're-education and training' camps either. If it looks like a genocide and it quacks like a genocide then it's a genocide.
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Nov 14, 2021 16:41
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Nothing says "celebrating culture" like removing the domes from the mosques to make them "more Chinese." Weren't those domes added in the 1970's by wahabbists XMNN posted:One thing I always wonder about the supposed US tolerance of political dissent (cf the USSR, DDR etc), is how much credit you can give a country for not locking up people who are basically no threat to power in the imperial core, when it is perfectly happy to orchestrate mass killings of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of political dissidents in the imperial periphery. This, In-My-Opinion, is the real takeaway. Dissent in the US is tolerated for as long as it can be suppressed through soft-power, and when the US becomes significantly intimidated, we see it crack down on dissenting voices, whether it's Fred Hampton or other US communists. So long as that soft power is effective, they dont need to get their hands more visibly dirty. Hell, what more damning indictment of this approach is necessary, than the fact that it's taught some folks that the history & effectiveness of US communism & socialism amounted to bickering twitter fights: Mulva posted:the idea that 'communists' were a single thing that existed in some meaningful group sense, rather than being like 9 million disparate groups which often hated each other. I think China, Cuba, the like would love to be able to exert that same soft power over their nations, but they dont have the global, cultural power. They dont have a way to deal with a barrage of "CONVERT TO CAPITALISM VIA SHOCK THERAPY AND WIN A FREE IPOD!!" propaganda that the current western superpower can exert, as seen in the former soviet countries the moment the USSR was not regulating its cultural intake. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 16:48
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Neurolimal posted:Weren't those domes added in the 1970's by wahabbists Given that Wahabbists spent a lot of the 70s trying to remove domes for being too grand? Either way that doesn't justify what is being done to the Uyghurs
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Nov 14, 2021 16:58
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Mirello posted:I live in china, I''ve been to xinjiang. China has much more respect for it's minorities than america. its cultural autonomous regions are governed by minorities, even when han chinese are a majority (like in inner mongolia). going to these autonomous regions, I was immediately struck by how much of the minorities language you see everywhere, especially in publically owned places such as governmental buildings or public transit. within china, xinjiang is a huge tourist spot and uigher culture is celebrated. you could argue it's a bit kitchy or exploitative, but promoting a culture and people is an extremely odd thing to do for a government seemingly intent on "cultural genocide" Congratulations citizen your social credit score has been increased
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Nov 14, 2021 17:02
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Nothing says "celebrating culture" like removing the domes from the mosques to make them "more Chinese." They're removing domes that were added to mosques in the 1990's (AD). There really is a long history of Islam in China that is distinct from middle eastern culture. Also, were there even domes and minarets added to mosques in Xinjiang? I can't find any information on it: all the stories I can find are about sinicization of mosques in Qinghai, where the Muslim population is almost exclusively Hui, not Uyghur.
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Nov 14, 2021 18:27
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Congratulations citizen your social credit score has been increased That's awesome, cuz my real credit score already determines my income, housing, and transportation. What does social credit score even do? What is a good number and what is a bad number?
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Nov 14, 2021 18:43
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CommieGIR posted:
What is wrong with their claim?
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Nov 14, 2021 18:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol at bringing out the 'all the evidence of xinjiang is from zenz' bullshit in 2021 Yeah, a lot of it is also from ASPI. e: Not trying to be flippant, it's just I like to click through things and snoop on people's LinkedIn or whatever and often the source is some Australian working for them XMNN fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 18:52
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Cpt_Obvious posted:That's awesome, cuz my real credit score already determines my income, housing, and transportation. What does social credit score even do? What is a good number and what is a bad number? That China is considering adopting dystopian parts of American capitalism is not a great thing, even if they come up with a system that isn't as bad. That said, it seems pretty unlikely that there's going to be any sort of unified social credit score system any time soon in China, so the meme is a bit silly
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Nov 14, 2021 18:54
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What does this thread think should have been done about then ongoing radicalization of the uighur population?
Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 19:12
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Mr Hootington posted:What does this thread think should have been done about then ongoing radicalization of the uighur population? Where are they being radicalized, and why would mass incarceration and re-education not ALSO cause radicalization. How does that justify concentration camps. That's practically the same dog whistle idea that is used to justify mass incarceration of refugees at the US border. Can't be too careful, there might be terrorists/gang members among them! Mr Hootington posted:What is wrong with their claim? Because its a claim that echoes the same sort of handwaving that is used to wipe away crimes against minorities throughout history. They are not being mistreatad, they are being well cared for! They are being educated, while ignoring that they are there against their will and used to justify pogroms against minority groups to either re-educated them or do worse. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 19:18
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Why is this minority group radicalising if everyone is so happy under the benevolent rule of the CCP?
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Nov 14, 2021 19:21
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Mr Hootington posted:What does this thread think should have been done about then ongoing radicalization of the uighur population? The government's criteria for re-education was too broad and arbitrary and swept up a lot of people without evidence of extremist tendencies. Clearly there were even Party officials who felt that way, hence the leak.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:29
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CommieGIR posted:Where are they being radicalized, and why would mass incarceration and re-education not ALSO cause radicalization. How does that justify concentration camps. That's practically the same dog whistle idea that is used to justify mass incarceration of refugees at the US border. Can't be too careful, there might be terrorists/gang members among them! Did the mass incarceration and re-education cause the radicalization or was the policy in response to the radicalization and terrorist attacks at home and abroad caused by China born Uyghurs? Why are you bringing up the American concentration camps to deflect? I asked a question about China and Chinese policies. Again I ask what was to be done about radiclization of a populatipn? Do you allow it to fester? Do you crackdown? Targeted arrests? Does that stop the spread of the ideas and ideology that is causing the radicalization? CommieGIR posted:Because its a claim that echoes the same sort of handwaving that is used to wipe away crimes against minorities throughout history. They are not being mistreatad, they are being well cared for! They are being educated, while ignoring that they are there against their will and used to justify pogroms against minority groups to either re-educated them or do worse. It is a first hand claim though. Wouldn't it be more valid than the 2nd or 3rd hand claims that are taken as God's own truth? Edit: I think these are interesting reading material https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09546553.2017.1330199 https://ctc.usma.edu/uighur-dissent-and-militancy-in-chinas-xinjiang-province/ eSports Chaebol posted:The government's criteria for re-education was too broad and arbitrary and swept up a lot of people without evidence of extremist tendencies. Clearly there were even Party officials who felt that way, hence the leak. So you think it wasn't properly targeted? It should have had a narrower focus? Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 19:36
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CommieGIR posted:Because its a claim that echoes the same sort of handwaving that is used to wipe away crimes against minorities throughout history. They are not being mistreatad, they are being well cared for! They are being educated, while ignoring that they are there against their will and used to justify pogroms against minority groups to either re-educated them or do worse. Uh, the claim was that their culture was being promoted. I'm not saying that it is entirely unheard of to promote a bastardized version of a culture in order to co-opt it and erase parts of it (which is the real long-term concern in my opinion about what's happening in Xinjjiang), but pogroms? I don't think there were any Tsars who said to respect Jewish culture and who paid for exchange programs for rabbinical students to study abroad in other Jewish communities, all while condoning pogroms.
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Nov 14, 2021 19:44
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eSports Chaebol posted:Uh, the claim was that their culture was being promoted. I'm not saying that it is entirely unheard of to promote a bastardized version of a culture in order to co-opt it and erase parts of it (which is the real long-term concern in my opinion about what's happening in Xinjjiang), but pogroms? I don't think there were any Tsars who said to respect Jewish culture and who paid for exchange programs for rabbinical students to study abroad in other Jewish communities, all while condoning pogroms. True, used the wrong word there. Mr Hootington posted:It is a first hand claim though. Wouldn't it be more valid than the 2nd or 3rd hand claims that are taken as God's own truth? How do we verify its a first hand claim other than the poster saying it is? That's not how first hand claims work. Mr Hootington posted:Did the mass incarceration and re-education cause the radicalization or was the policy in response to the radicalization and terrorist attacks at home and abroad caused by China born Uyghurs? Because its a valid comparison, and gonna be clear: are you honestly suggesting mass incarceration and re-education in order to make an ethnic minority "More in line with CCP values" is a GOOD solution? You realize how incredibly Islamophobic that sounds? How do you possibly justify that as a good solution?
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Nov 14, 2021 19:54
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CommieGIR posted:Because its a valid comparison, and gonna be clear: are you honestly suggesting mass incarceration and re-education in order to make an ethnic minority "More in line with CCP values" is a GOOD solution? You realize how incredibly Islamophobic that sounds? I never said whether it was a good or bad solution. I was asking what this thread and now specifically you "what should China have done about radicalization of its Uyghur population?" CommieGIR posted:How do we verify its a first hand claim other than the poster saying it is? That's not how first hand claims work. Does Mirello have a history of lying? I am taking their claim in good faith. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 20:01
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Mr Hootington posted:What does this thread think should have been done about then ongoing radicalization of the uighur population? Mr Hootington posted:Did the mass incarceration and re-education cause the radicalization or was the policy in response to the radicalization and terrorist attacks at home and abroad caused by China born Uyghurs? Radicalization is an interesting topic for sure, especially because we're increasingly surrounded by it. Even here on SA for example, I regularly find myself wondering what the admins should do about the current ongoing radicalization that infests certain subforums on this site. You know what I'm talking about, of course: people who whip each other into increasingly insane frenzies about how those of a certain political ideology are actually the root of all evil and must be sent to the gulags or just straight up lined up against the wall, and come rushing out of the woodwork to defend China's honor whenever someone in some thread dares criticize CCP's racist atrocities and crimes against humanity. That kind of radicalization has gone largely unchecked and directly led to a shooter event just a few weeks back, so it's not a perceived or abstract problem either. We should all pause and reflect on the proper way to handle it, as such reflection might inform our opinions on how to deal with radicalization elsewhere in the world.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:09
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eSports Chaebol posted:That China is considering adopting dystopian parts of American capitalism is not a great thing, even if they come up with a system that isn't as bad. That said, it seems pretty unlikely that there's going to be any sort of unified social credit score system any time soon in China, so the meme is a bit silly It would be interesting if they were to decide to distribute resources based on what is effectively party loyalty instead of arbitrary bank account numbers. Like, obviously whatever is considered "moral" will be strictly party determined but would that system be worse than our current method of resource distribution? What contradictions of class struggle does it address, and what new contradictions does it introduce? Interesting thought experiment.
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Nov 14, 2021 20:15
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Mr Hootington posted:I never said whether it was a good or bad solution. I was asking what this thread and now specifically you "what should China have done about radicalization of its Uyghur population?" Getting some real Christopher Hitchens vibes from this line of just asking questions. Maybe China should do what every country should do when it comes to radicalization? Become more inclusive, meet people's material needs, embrace diversity, give marginalized communities agency and autonomy. Your implied answer, that China was forced to enact a genocide because gosh what else could anybody possibly do about ~radicalization~, is pretty hosed up, friend. How are u fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 20:17
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How are u posted:Getting some real Christopher Hitchens vibes from this line of just asking questions. Maybe China should do what every country should do when it comes to radicalization? Become more inclusive, meet people's material needs, embrace diversity, give marginalized communities agency and autonomy. I agree with you and i appreciate the answer. I think that is how you can help the youth and poor who become radicalized, but I wonder what can be done about the leadership that spreads radicalization. Do you jail them? Re-educate? I often wonder what denizens of this thread think should be done about radicalization. Specifically the self proclaimed USA citizen posters if I am totally honest. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 20:28
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Mr Hootington posted:What does this thread think should have been done about then ongoing radicalization of the uighur population? Honestly I haven't actually seen many articles going into the details of how the uighurs have been radicalizing, or what any of their stated causes may be, so I really don't know much on that front. If anyone has some details they want to explain about that, I'd be willing to listen. Although obviously you can't suppress and punish the entire population, ethnicity, and religion for the crimes of individuals. That's just insane and cruel. I am less inclined to sympathize with China's side of the grievance from the absurdity of their response even if I'd be interested to hear it. (and possibly there's a thing going on where this is an expression of the state pushing further for Han Nationalism) There are a lot of countries that have dealt with terrorism and hostile political movements without doing a genocide.
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Nov 14, 2021 21:38
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How are u posted:Getting some real Christopher Hitchens vibes from this line of just asking questions. Maybe China should do what every country should do when it comes to radicalization? Become more inclusive, meet people's material needs, embrace diversity, give marginalized communities agency and autonomy. This is actually part of my answer to the question, but it also is already part of China’s answer to the question, especially moving forward now, but I think they should have focused on more carrot and less stick to start.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:03
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Also it isn’t just a matter of how Islam fits in with China today, because again for example, policies toward the Hui are not the same as toward Uyghurs. But there also isn’t a significant Hui separatist movement. The closest parallel I can think of is Chechnya. It may be as low a bar as there is but I’d sure rather live in Kashgar than Grozny!
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Nov 14, 2021 22:08
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CommieGIR posted:
Pretty rich coming from someone that seemingly automatically believes the second and third-hand accounts put out by intelligence-adjacent (at best) groups.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:27
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Pobrecito posted:Pretty rich coming from someone that seemingly automatically believes the second and third-hand accounts put out by intelligence-adjacent (at best) groups. Assuming that your accusation is even true, how is that any different than automatically believing anything the CCP says?
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Nov 14, 2021 22:44
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Assuming that your accusation is even true, how is that any different than automatically believing anything the CCP says? People who claim to be communists would never, ever lie.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:56
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Pobrecito posted:Pretty rich coming from someone that seemingly automatically believes the second and third-hand accounts put out by intelligence-adjacent (at best) groups. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071 Are these first hand accounts to be discounted? Choose wisely. Either you are basically dismissed people accusing them of rape and torture and ignoring victims, or its all a plot by intelligence groups. Either way, if the best you can do is slander any claims as "Being Intelligence Group Adjacent", then why should we believe anything. Frankly, that's a loving bold stance to take. Even better if you actually read the published papers by China arguing "Uighurs didn't chose to be Muslim" https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3019490/uygurs-xinjiang-didnt-choose-be-muslims-china-says-white-paper quote:Uygurs became Muslims not by choice but by force, and Islam is not their only religion, Beijing said in a white paper published on Sunday, as it continued its propaganda campaign to justify its controversial policies in the far western province of Xinjiang. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 14, 2021 |
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Nov 14, 2021 23:33
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Pobrecito posted:Pretty rich coming from someone that seemingly automatically believes the second and third-hand accounts put out by intelligence-adjacent (at best) groups. So what about the Uighurs who have spoken up about their experiences in Xinjiang? Are they cia crisis actors? And what precisely do you mean by 'intelligence-adjacent'?
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Nov 14, 2021 23:34
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There is a difference between seeing minority language on signage etc and it being actively taught in schools. In China literacy in heritage languages is declining fast across the board precisely because the languages are sidelined in favour of putonghua. This is not necessarily a dig at China because it is the common fate of minority languages worldwide. The claim that someone lives in China and has been to Xinjiang is not exactly worth much of anything because the tourist experience is highly generic; China restricts where foreigners in particular can visit in Xinjiang so it is unlikely any tourist went to a particularly sensitive area anyway. For these "personal experience" claims to have more weight I would expect the poster to, for example, be able to speak Uyghur and have done some actual fieldwork in the region. This is why I don't read Zenz, all he does it seems is read through Chinese sources to try to get gotchas for his articles. Read Rian Thum instead, he is a real academic with peer reviewed output on the cultural whitewashing and yes, genocide, of the Uyghur people and he has done extensive fieldwork in Xinjiang and happens also to be literate in the language. Of course his position means that he will now never be allowed back into China, so that's quite sad. I don't know which xinjiang experts the cspammers read, maybe those in the thread can tell me?
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Nov 14, 2021 23:41
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I wonder, would Xi be less of a genociadal arseface if he resembled a different cartoon bear? Maybe if he looked like Yogi, and wore a green hat and necktie, then his rule over the CCP would be nicer. And involve more pic-a-nic baskets, and less repression.
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Nov 15, 2021 00:13
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