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Cpt_Obvious posted:Then why does it need an entire thread dedicated to nothing but negative news stories? There's like 11 specific countries, 3? regional locations, and maybe 4 states with threads on the first page right now. As I said, China isn't special. It has a thread because people want to talk about it, which is a thing people do in a discussion forum.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:09
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Orange Devil posted:I agree it was bad. Was it genocide? you appear to be taking literally the opposite meaning from that as intended
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Nov 16, 2021 03:09
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The oppression of the Uighur people is in no way comparable to the evils of colonialism visited upon the Black and indigenous populations. The reason that oppression was so severe is due to the mechanisms and goals of colonialism which is why such a differentiation is important. The oppression of the Uighur people is the evils of colonialism visited upon the indigenous population.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:40
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All the attempts at 'but what about bad things that happened in the USA' arguments falling apart because the other posters already agree with the equivalency is so loving funny.
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Nov 16, 2021 03:53
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BrainDance posted:I don't know what definition you're using here, but because of that and so many other things yes. basically, i am trying to sus out if the ridiculously cruel carceral system that is absolutely targeted on an ethnic basis in america meets the definition of genocide, be it actual or cultural. if we in this thread can agree that the united states is actively, right this moment, carrying out an immensely cruel cultural genocide against black americans that shows no signs of abating, then yeah, I think i can get on board with the PRC carrying out a lesser, but still really hosed up, cultural genocide against xinjiang. Or at least it was, it has not exactly been clear to me to what degree the mass internments in xinjiang are ongoing right this instant. e: like i cant imagine anyone disagreeing that the carceral state in america is incredibly hosed up. If we use that as a baseline, so to speak, for genocidal actions by a state, then I think we all can recognize that the PRC is also carrying out a cultural genocide against the uighur people in xinjiang. it's not nearly as bad as what the US is doing right now to black americans, but its still really hosed. or possibly was. does anyone have any info to the extent its still ongoing? e2: basically my attempt to forge an accord is "jesus loving christ america sucks so bad that the prc should be dragged for being similar to america even a little bit" A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 04:02
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R guy has been gone for a year and the china threat is still departing what is and isn't genocide
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Nov 16, 2021 04:06
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A big flaming stink posted:basically, i am trying to sus out if the ridiculously cruel carceral system that is absolutely targeted on an ethnic basis in america meets the definition of genocide, be it actual or cultural. This is quite a post here. Citation needed on that bolded part because it’s pretty clear you’ve never looked into what actually happened to them.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:06
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:R guy has been gone for a year and the china threat is still departing what is and isn't genocide homework explainer has been back for like, at least a month MarcusSA posted:This is quite a post here. lesser compared to the immense depravity of the modern american carceral state. which, last i checked, still exceeds the prc's carceral state even in absolute numbers, much less per capita.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:06
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Warbadger posted:The oppression of the Uighur people isn't the evils of colonialism visited upon the indigenous population. Fixed, OP. A simple declarative statement that fails to address any of the points I've made is not a terribly convincing argument.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:26
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Fixed, OP. you would need to have made an argument rather than making replies that are "ftfy" and linking pictures of pokemon you never did answer why you think it is that china was targeting uighurs to put them in concentration camps, if not as part of a plan to colonize xinjiang
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Nov 16, 2021 04:28
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Orange Devil posted:Is the US committing genocide against Black Americans right now? Do you think people don't think it is? Black Genocide in America has been a thing people have been talking about for a long time, in the 50s William Patterson petitioned the UN to acknowledge the US is committing genocide against black people, and obviously a lot of non-black America dismissed it because it's not the holocaust. But the argument that it isn't because it isn't the holocaust is stupid. Ervin Staub defined genocide as "an attempt to exterminate a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural, or political group, either directly through murder or indirectly by creating conditions that lead to the group's destruction" in the 80s in the roots of evil, and it makes sense because the word "genos" doesn't just mean race, but tribe of some kind in general. He also said, same place, "The essence of evil is the destruction of human beings. This includes not only killing but creation of conditions that materially or psychologically destroy or diminish people's dignity, happiness, and capacity to fulfill basic material needs." Going by that, the holocaust is the extreme, not the standard to base all genocides on. We (mostly) agree that famines can be a tool for genocide (Irish potato famine.) But obviously a naturally occurring famine that happens for reasons outside of anyone's control isn't a genocide unless you wanna say nature itself is genocidal. That means that it has to be a matter of policy, policy that leads to destructive conditions can be a method of genocide. US policy leads to many destructive conditions for black Americans, low access to health care, poo poo schools, high infant mortality, neighborhoods ruined by poverty. These conditions lead to more destructive behaviors, but with a distance from the policies that cause them making for some kind of deniability, people in horrible poverty in poo poo places have higher rates of suicide, intra-group violence, drug addiction, poor health, etc. And from there you get the deniable genocide, "they're doing it to themselves" and some dweeb who wont shut up about "fbi crime statistics!" It's been called "indirect genocide" which is just a description of a characteristic of how that genocide is done, not some lesser kind of genocide or anything. It's just a genocide, but if anything a worse kind because it is so easy to blame the victims of it. How it relates to Xinjiang, I don't know I'd have to put some more thought into it, but I'm definitely sure the existence of black genocide in America doesn't make anything China does better or worse or anything at all. It's another thing, that I haven't brought up here before because this is the China thread and so I usually don't really write about the black genocide in the China thread because China is, as far as I know, not doing a black genocide. Edit: Here is Patterson's petition from the 50s that started it all https://www.google.com/books/edition/We_Charge_Genocide/dSNYAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1 BrainDance fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 04:29
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Indigenous peoples, some of which are historically nomadic horsemen, live in the Wild West of a country — a vast, lightly populated area of mountains and deserts. These peoples aren't without their own social issues, but they've been here for a long rear end time and seem pretty content with governing themselves. In the past, this Wild West has been subject to invasions or colonization from outside groups. There are even populations that are legacies of those groups and that have lived there for many generations. Some of the historical indigenous peoples have been totally wiped out. Many of the current issues the indigenous groups face are knock-on effects of much older clashes, population displacements, and so on. Less than a 100 years ago, there was regime change in the country's east that saw a more overtly imperial system replaced with one based on loftier albeit imperfect ideals. Despite the idealism, the new regime secured its periphery areas including in the southwest and the vast Wild West frontiers, given that there were some claims or historical precedents for it, even if those claims are based on agreements with outside groups (not the indigenous people) or unequal/coerced agreements with the indigenous people. The east is densely populated, and the Wild West offers abundant opportunities. Some from the east migrate there for better opportunities — it is part of their country, after all, and even if it isn't, human migration is natural. Not all of this natural migration is at odds with peaceful coexistence of indigenous populations, but increasingly an organic movement becomes a deliberate, state-led effort, complete with incentives for eastern folks to settle out west, large-scale infrastructure investment, and twisted arguments to justify it under moral or ideological grounds. When tension rises and violence occurs, it justifies further state coercion. There's even a large quasi-military company that operates with some sort of loose direction from the leaders back east. Eventually this leads to indigenous peoples being rounded up and placed in restricted areas. They're taught the ways of the east to make it easier for them to integrate with the well-meaning folks from the east, who bring them a way of life that is superior in many regards. This devastates their social stability, which only fuels the need for more state intervention and faster assimilation. When some groups of the indigenous people resist violently, large-scale campaigns are waged, with the kind of collateral damage to be expected. Why are they so difficult when the indigenous groups still around in the east are not?! Plenty of the settlers from the east are good people. Plenty of the leaders grapple sincerely with the morality of the Indigenous Question. There are important bureaus in the government for ensuring the ethical treatment of indigenous groups, and even some representation of those groups in government (they have great headdresses). Over time, the indigenous populations are crowded out. Newcomers from the east pour in. Many indigenous groups fully assimilate. Their ways of life become literal and figurative museum relics or are restricted to extant communities when in authentic form. But now there are great ski resorts, and the food is fantastic!
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Nov 16, 2021 04:43
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Somaen posted:I'm not sure what the "extreme claims" are that have not been corroborated, the genocide deniers dropping in here haven't presented anything substantial besides that they're not ww2 style extermination camps, just rape and torture camps until you denounce Islam, which has been up in media outside of the US, such as these links that I've posted before to Novaya Gazeta which is a famous independent nnewspaper from Russia reporting on human rights for decades where journalists went to talk to Uighur and Kazakh refugees in Kazakhstan speaking of torture, rape and sterilization: Thank you for linking these, I finally got around to reading them. Also probably just straight up linking the project of Gene Bunin to track as many detainees as possible (I'm not quite certain if he's American or Russian but he certainly speaks English) would be good: https://shahit.biz/eng/ Even if one thinks that the program of re-education was initially well-intended, I think it is an inevitable consequence of enacting such a mass program of incarceration that it will be rife for abuse. This doesn't excuse the Party leaders--on the contrary, they certainly know this, and went ahead with it anyway. From one of the articles: Novaya Gazeta posted:People were literally taken from the streets and sent to "re-education centers" for an indefinite period for (and this is the official wording) "for demonstrating a penchant for extremism." The prisoners, according to their stories, are really taught and brought up: the day consists of sleep, food, learning the Chinese language, the laws of the PRC, teaching the simplest specialties (sewing, cooking, haircuts, etc.), physical education and political information. A significant part of the former prisoners of the camps speaks of the use of physical violence against them: sleep deprivation, beatings and additional physical exertion in case of failure to complete tasks. A minority talked about rape, torture,force-feeding with medication and even sterilization. I really do appreciate having links to sources that aren't pushing a broader anti-China narrative.
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Nov 16, 2021 04:54
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eSports Chaebol posted:Even if one thinks that the program of re-education was initially well-intended, I think it is an inevitable consequence of enacting such a mass program of incarceration that it will be rife for abuse. This doesn't excuse the Party leaders--on the contrary, they certainly know this, and went ahead with it anyway. From one of the articles: This is one of the really core issues: to actually enact a mass incarceration you have to dehumanize the people being incarcerated and once people have been dehumanized on an industrial scale, you invariably get really horrific abuses. And yes that's an indictment on basically all incarceration
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Nov 16, 2021 05:03
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Cease to Hope posted:you never did answer why you think it is that china was targeting uighurs to put them in concentration camps, if not as part of a plan to colonize xinjiang Seems to me that it's forced assimilation.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:13
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Seems to me that it's forced assimilation. so your position is that it's not genocide and it's not colonialism, it's a program to punish an ethnic group unless they submit to a program of forced assimilation. which is different from colonialism and genocide because 
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Nov 16, 2021 05:18
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I made the point a few genocide-debate cycles ago that if one disappears hundreds of thousands of people into incommunicado camps with no legal recourse or political representation - which is what the Chinese now say they are doing, as vocational centers; it's not a foreign allegation - then the sheer scale and speed means that terrible abuse on an industrial scale is inevitable even under the most benign intentions anyway. And that's the best case scenario! Insofar as international pressure obliges Beijing to keep an eye on what local government is up to in order to minimize embarrassment, that is still a reduction in human misery, so three cheers for that and all
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Nov 16, 2021 05:26
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ronya posted:I made the point a few genocide-debate cycles ago that if one disappears hundreds of thousands of people into incommunicado camps with no legal recourse or political representation - which is what the Chinese now say they are doing, as vocational centers; it's not a foreign allegation - then the sheer scale and speed means that terrible abuse on an industrial scale is inevitable even under the most benign intentions anyway. And that's the best case scenario! Went back to read linked post. +1 would recommend.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:36
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ronya posted:Insofar as international pressure obliges Beijing to keep an eye on what local government is up to in order to minimize embarrassment, that is still a reduction in human misery, so three cheers for that and all Yes, and I think part of my issue is that things like State Department condemnations don’t really matter compared to targeted approaches. From Gene Bunin re: shahit.biz: http://ronininstitute.org/research-scholars/gene-bunin/bunin/ posted:The primary goal of the database is more humanitarian than scholarly, as by documenting the individual victims we seek to spotlight their cases and thereby protect them, while also holding the Chinese authorities responsible for their actions and establishing the foundations for future legal action. However, by methodically tracking the thousands of different cases and their evolution, we also become privy to a number of important trends that are difficult to notice otherwise, given the information vacuum that the authorities have created in Xinjiang and the authorities’ absolute refusal to admit any wrongdoing. For example, some of the trends and phenomena that shahit.biz has helped discover and document have been: As with almost everything in China, pressure on the central government to take a more hands-on approach and leaving less to local authorities is probably the best avenue to improve things on the ground. eSports Chaebol fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Nov 16, 2021 |
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Nov 16, 2021 05:44
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eSports Chaebol posted:Yes, and I think part of my issue is that things like State Department condemnations don’t really matter compared to targeted approaches. From Gene Bunin re: shahit.biz: While I don't disagree, these aren't mutually exclusive approaches. Pressure from multiple angles can achieve even more, and it's also likely to happen naturally since all sorts of stakeholders want to do something about the problem, not just local civil society and the US State Dept. The counterargument might be that certain approaches would cause PRC to double down or that a more coordinated approach can be less confusing to react to, but I think that risk is offset by the sheer weight of pulling every lever possible.
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Nov 16, 2021 05:55
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For what it's worth, one-third of Xinjiang was Han Chinese in the 1800's, and has fluctuated over time, and is currently at 40%. I feel like equating such a ratio to say, the treatment of native americans, is very disingenuous. I also feel like framing the migration of Han chinese and miscegenation as 'settler colonialism" kind of gross, and bordering on "The ____ Will Not Replace Us" rhetoric. This isnt to comment on the camps, for which I've said my part in the QCS thread. It also seems to be implied in the thread that all Uyghur chinese citizens are in favor of independence, which I find a bit suspect.
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Nov 16, 2021 06:02
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Neurolimal posted:For what it's worth, one-third of Xinjiang was Han Chinese in the 1800's, and has fluctuated over time, and is currently at 40%. I feel like equating such a ratio to say, the treatment of native americans, is very disingenuous. I also feel like framing the migration of Han chinese and miscegenation as 'settler colonialism" kind of gross, and bordering on "The ____ Will Not Replace Us" rhetoric. This isnt to comment on the camps, for which I've said my part in the QCS thread. this is burying the lede a bit, given that the Han percentage previously dropped to ~7% in 1949. There has been in fact waves of settlement and retroemigration, with the 1800s wave itself a previous highwater mark after the Dzungar genocide by the Qing
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Nov 16, 2021 06:13
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Neurolimal posted:I also feel like framing the migration of Han chinese and miscegenation as 'settler colonialism" kind of gross, and bordering on "The ____ Will Not Replace Us" rhetoric. This isnt to comment on the camps, for which I've said my part in the QCS thread. Great Replacement Theory poses white minority status as a product of Jewish eugenic plotting to promote the birth of non-white people and hamper the birth rates of white people. This is not happening. There isn't a Jewish Illuminati, that's a racist fantasy that attempts to acknowledge the existence of settler colonialism but retool its terms as part of a white supremacist conspiracy theory. There is, however, a Chinese government that has been not-even-secretly encouraging Han Chinese to move to Xinjiang, pushing Uighurs to assimilate, and, when that didn't work, rounded up a significant fraction of the overall population into camps. China didn't invent this playbook; in fact, its similarity to western settler colonialism makes it easier for the Chinese government to dissemble and defend it. But calling residential schools what they are is not bordering on white supremacist rhetoric, get the gently caress out of here.
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Nov 16, 2021 06:27
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Western media having issues with China news. https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1460483570699485185ronya posted:I made the point a few genocide-debate cycles ago that if one disappears hundreds of thousands of people into incommunicado camps with no legal recourse or political representation - which is what the Chinese now say they are doing, as vocational centers; it's not a foreign allegation - then the sheer scale and speed means that terrible abuse on an industrial scale is inevitable even under the most benign intentions anyway. And that's the best case scenario! Yeah, just moving people around from point A to point B can seem innocuous enough in principle, but in practice, when you're moving massive amounts of people, that has all kinds of ways to go horribly wrong, and when you're doing it by force, that means that a lot of the people being moved around are going to lose a lot of their worldly possessions, they're not going to be prepared for the move, and you have to enact violence to get those people to move. In theory it could be done without hurting people, but in practice people will be hurt, and you wouldn't be forcing these people around if you cared all that much about their wellbeing in the first place. Cpt_Obvious posted:Seems to me that it's forced assimilation. That's intentionally destroying the culture even if it leaves the people alive, which is called a soft genocide, which is still a genocide.
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Nov 16, 2021 07:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:Western media having issues with China news. https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1460483570699485185 Odd given that their correspondent in HK was just denied a visa renewal. I don't know her but know a few other journos at top-tier publications, and they're all making GBS threads their pants in fear of a wave of visa renewal rejections. There were also rumors recently that an SOE that owns some local publications was going to buy the SCMP, but I think the deal, if it was ever real, fell through. It would not have been too surprising, though, given that it was always a bit of a weird acquisition for Alibaba. And also while the SOE has had a pretty small presence in HK for a while, earlier this year it had a big restructuring and what seems like an enormous capital injection. Combined with the shuttering of Next Digital, it all seems to point towards some sea changes in the HK media. This isn't unexpected, given the NSL, but does reflect proactive measures beyond just exercising the NSL powers and the threat of them.
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Nov 16, 2021 08:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:That's intentionally destroying the culture even if it leaves the people alive, which is called a soft genocide, which is still a genocide. Forced assimilation was the explicit policy toward indigenous Americans for much of the 19th and especially 20th centuries. I don't think you'll find anyone here willing to argue that Indian boarding schools weren't at least a cultural genocide where language and culture were aggressively stamped out, resulting in generational trauma that deeply affects life today. The (likely tens of) thousands of unmarked graves of children who died in those boarding schools? Physical extermination was not the policy, but it turns out when you don't really care about the wellbeing or survival of an ethnic identity and culture you also don't put a lot of effort into the physical health of those people. This is all to say we shouldn't minimize "forced assimilation" or "boarding schools" etc as being not-genocide. That poo poo happened here in the US and to some extent continues today. I interact with victims of those boarding schools on an almost daily basis. Have a skim through the Wikipedia on Termination-era policy toward indigenous peoples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy Does that qualify as a government policy of cultural genocide? I feel like some posters are bending themselves into knots to "well, actually" China's treatment of Uighurs as not a (cultural) genocide. It's the same poo poo perpetrated on indigenous peoples in the US and playing games with the definitions of words doesn't make it less bad. They are both bad. They are both forms of colonialism and empire as they involve the deliberate control and persecution of an ethnic/religious minority to conform to the dominant culture. Anyway, I could go on at length about the history of indigenous Americans and the shifting policy regime eras in the US, but I won't. Cuz this is actually the China thread, not the "US also has done despicable poo poo" thread.
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Nov 16, 2021 08:59
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Yeah, thats what really baffles me about the people desperately trying to claim its not bad at all and that they are somehow deradicalizing millions. Even just a slightly more than basic understanding of how American Indian culture was systematically obliterated is enough to realize that what is going on in Xinjiang is a repeat what has been done in the US.
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Nov 16, 2021 09:22
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A Twitter thread, https://twitter.com/alisonkilling/status/1460243389060952074 The full video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI8bJO-to8I&t=1s
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Nov 16, 2021 11:25
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RIP to the dude The "China scale" Auschwitz at around 11:00 is impressive
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Nov 16, 2021 13:06
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Holy poo poo. That person has balls to do poo poo like that.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:12
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Cease to Hope posted:so your position is that it's not genocide and it's not colonialism, it's a program to punish an ethnic group unless they submit to a program of forced assimilation. which is different from colonialism and genocide because Force Assimilation is Cultural Genocide. Between that, the video above, and Fritz the Horses post, there's almost no doubt at this point of what it is.
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Nov 16, 2021 14:18
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There's also a whole thing where trying to force cultural assimilation doesn't even "work", because even after they've adopted the cultural practices you wanted them to, they'll still be some modicum of "different" in a way that racists can still be incensed about their existence. When the Trail of Tears happened, the native americans who were forced off to Oklahoma had already done their part to integrate into white society.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:00
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SlothfulCobra posted:There's also a whole thing where trying to force cultural assimilation doesn't even "work", because even after they've adopted the cultural practices you wanted them to, they'll still be some modicum of "different" in a way that racists can still be incensed about their existence. When the Trail of Tears happened, the native americans who were forced off to Oklahoma had already done their part to integrate into white society. Yeah, its just traumatic and abusive, it never does much but destroy lives and ruin people.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:06
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CommieGIR posted:Force Assimilation is Cultural Genocide. Between that, the video above, and Fritz the Horses post, there's almost no doubt at this point of what it is. "Cultural Genocide" was removed from the UNs DRIP draft and is not included in their official definition of genocide for good reason as it serves a whole bunch of bad functions: 1. Giving white supremacists the avenue to feign oppression. All day and night those whiny bitches cry about rap music poisoning their culture and their southern heritage being ruined by public education. And if you accept "Cultural Genocide" then you must accept their claims to oppression as well. You must accept that forcibly educating them on the evils of slavery does impede on their garbage culture and then you're basically stuck with the Paradox of Tolerance except now it's cultural instead of speech. 2. Detracts from the crimes of Western genocide through equivocation. If the crimes of Auschwitz and the crimes in Xinjiang use the same language, then that erases what made Auschwitz so viscerally objectionable: the plumes of human ash that rained on occupied Poland. I'm not going to bury the thread in Holocaust pictures because it is a huge downer, but if you want to compare the two I urge you to look at photographs of prisoners and living conditions of each. 3. Exaggerating the crimes of adversaries of the West. This is (hopefully) the primary function ITT. Instead of focusing on the actual oppression targeted at Uighurs through mass incarceration and an overbearing surveillance state, posters are trying to push the damage beyond what's actually happening. It's just Cold War propaganda all over again.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:14
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Cpt_Obvious posted:"Cultural Genocide" was removed from the UNs DRIP draft and is not included in their official definition of genocide for good reason as it serves a whole bunch of bad functions: Oh yeah, we're all here to vilify enemies of the West.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:17
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Cpt_Obvious posted:"Cultural Genocide" was removed from the UNs DRIP draft and is not included in their official definition of genocide for good reason as it serves a whole bunch of bad functions: Okay, this post is hosed up, because it basically says "Because they are not death camps, it cannot be genocide", despite the fact that cultural Genocide does not require deathcamps to happen. You seriously need to just stop trying to downplay this stuff.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:18
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Lol 'we can't call putting millions of people in concentration camps genocide because that will legitimise white racists complaining about rap music'.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:36
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CommieGIR posted:Okay, this post is hosed up, because it basically says "Because they are not death camps, it cannot be genocide", despite the fact that cultural Genocide does not require deathcamps to happen. Genocide, not just cultural genocide, does not require deathcamps to happen. Even by the strict international law definition, what's happening in Xinjiang is easily interpreted as genocide, not cultural genocide.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:36
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Smeef posted:Genocide, not just cultural genocide, does not require deathcamps to happen. Even by the strict international law definition, what's happening in Xinjiang is easily interpreted as genocide, not cultural genocide. True, my point was even in the loosest definition of cultural genocide, this easily qualifies.
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Nov 16, 2021 15:37
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imagine being so america-brained that you think the only reason someone might deplore residential schools is a cia plot
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Nov 16, 2021 15:37
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