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withak posted:They have demoed the next Prusaslicer beta showing a material/color painting tool similar to the support painting tool that is in there now. It appeared to be a pretty fiddly manual process, not sure if there exists any official way to make something like an stl with the differing colors/materials built in. The usual way is by having each different “part” be a separate part or object, so it’s easy to designate those parts as a different color or material. This is how Cura did it last time I played with a dual extruder (2019?) I put down a deposit, I can’t really see myself needing more than 2 extruders but who knows what I will decide later on.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:20
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In for a 5 head blaster from Prusa. Water soluble supports and such just got more intriguing to use to go for that super clean look when you need it.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:48
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I'm just going to throw out there that if those seams upset you that you really should have gone for a resin printer because a visible seam wherever layer transitions align is always going to be a thing in FDM. They really don't, but someone made it sound like that was solve-able. I also own a resin printer, but this piece is very large:  You can see some of the seam artifacts along the body.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:53
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withak posted:They have demoed the next Prusaslicer beta showing a material/color painting tool similar to the support painting tool that is in there now. It appeared to be a pretty fiddly manual process, not sure if there exists any official way to make something like an stl with the differing colors/materials built in. 3MF and AMF are the next-gen replacements for STL, and those formats can include information about material and color on either a surface or volumetric basis. Most modern 3D software can export one or both formats. How easy it is to tag different areas depends on how your software has implemented it. Historically, the most common way to handle this has been by splitting your part into different volumes and changing the properties for each one individually. Hadlock posted:What does 5 tool changing mean for me, exactly Some of the options with multiple toolheads: - multi color printing, obviously - variable appearances beyond color, eg. opaque parts with translucent windows, or clear perimeters with colored infill - model material / soluble support material - large nozzle for fast infill, small nozzle for detailed perimeters, as you suggest - combination of rigid plastic and flexible material for hinges, etc - other combinations of materials with different properties In theory some of these are achievable with other dual extrusion techniques, but it never works quite right. Anything that uses a single extruder is going to have trouble combining materials, especially if they don't print at almost exactly the same temperature. Some filaments are especially drippy and that works really poorly with dual nozzle toolheads. You can't load flexible filaments in something like the MMU. Etc. As I've been saying for years, independent toolchanging is the only proper way to do multi-material printing, and I am super happy that Prusa chose that technique. And yes, you don't need a purge tower if you have multiple toolheads. You need a small dump/purge area off to the side to build up pressure when changing tools, but it's nowhere near as wasteful as a tower.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:59
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Mr.Trifecta posted:In for a 5 head blaster from Prusa. Water soluble supports and such just got more intriguing to use to go for that super clean look when you need it. Oh man, water soluble supports, the ability to print an entire grandfather clock movement in one go? loving sign me up, gently caress this single filament bullshit ghetto I've been living in all my life, I've seen the light Edit: also really like the idea of being able to print TPU for flexible joints. I printed a couple of human vertebrae when I first got my printer, but would have been so much cooler with properly sized TPU "cartilage" at 40% infill or whatever between each vertibrae. You could create some very interesting mobile robot walking frames with that Double edit: would be nice to print ABS for load bearing surfaces, and then cheaper more brittle PLA for "spacer" or "filler" Hadlock fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 20:00
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Hadlock posted:Double edit: would be nice to print ABS for load bearing surfaces, and then cheaper more brittle PLA for "spacer" or "filler" You can't necessarily do this, because the filaments do have to be compatible with each other. ABS prints a good 50 degrees hotter than PLA. Depending on the design you might be able to stick them together I guess but I dunno what the interface would look like. It would be a fun experiment though!
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Nov 18, 2021 20:08
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How quickly do you think it will take to go from 5 to 10 tool change mods. Haven't looked at it closely yet but seems like you could position a second row of tool heads nearby with an expansion kit Maybe you could do pla -> pla+ -> petg -> abs each material three layers or whatever to do thermal insulation. I feel like with a good cooling fan it would be ok. You're not printing ABS on refrigerated butter
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Nov 18, 2021 20:16
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Holy crap I completely underestimated how tempting the Prusa CoreXY would be... Automatic first layer calibration!  A perfect first layer, everytime! Feedback directly from the nozzle really makes a difference. I wonder how much the new extruder will cut down on surface blemishes. I also love that the tool changing additions indirectly made it so that the printer is easier to take apart and maintain. Looks like you can pull out the hotend by unscrewing one or two parts and the cables from the extruder are wired to a board on the head and attached to the rest of the printer by one cable bundle. I didn't think that it would be so nice to have that until I needed to swap out the fan. I'm also really digging the automatic enclosure and the walled form factor. This looks much nicer than the MK3. It really feels like I just own a toy CNC imitation now.  $3000 pushes this into commercial 3D printer territory right? Are there any other ones in the same range (Ultimaker, Taz?) that have these features too? Also, does Prusa have a history of lowering prices as their printers get older?
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Nov 18, 2021 20:25
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Cory Parsnipson posted:Also, does Prusa have a history of lowering prices as their printers get older? Lol
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Nov 18, 2021 20:28
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Hadlock posted:Lol Haha, yeah they seem to retain value like a Honda Civic. MK3 might have had one price cut from $1k to $7-800, but I'm only inferring that from looking at old webpages. It might just be the difference in price from a fully assembled one and the kit. vv I'm going to be using the MK3 for a long time, but dang, it is hard not to drool over the XL. It sounds like it fixes all the minor annoyances that the previous printers had. I hope it lives up to the hype Cory Parsnipson fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 20:35
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Cory Parsnipson posted:This looks much nicer than the MK3. It really feels like I just own a toy CNC imitation now. The mk3 is still a perfectly good printer that will turn out quality parts all day long. I definitely want to get an XL for our lab, but I'm not going to try to replace the six standard mk3s in there with XLs. Single extrusion on a 220 mm bed is plenty for the vast majority of what we make. Ultimaker has a dual extrusion printer but it's not a tool changer and it's more expensive than the XL. I'm not sure what lulzbot has these days; I kind of quit paying attention to them when they decided they were going to continue using 3 mm filament after the entire industry standardized on 1.75.
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Nov 18, 2021 20:36
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Cory Parsnipson posted:$3000 pushes this into commercial 3D printer territory right? Are there any other ones in the same range (Ultimaker, Taz?) that have these features too? No, it doesn't even touch commercial 3d printer territory (those printers are 100k and up). As far as Ultimaker and Lulzbot printers go, no, I have not seen anything like the Prusa XL as far as features go on their machines. They historically have been marketed as if they are super-reliable machines based on some kind of magic building process to justify their cost.
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Nov 18, 2021 20:42
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biracial bear for uncut posted:No, it doesn't even touch commercial 3d printer territory (those printers are 100k and up). Oh, my bad. What's the term for printers that are $2-5k? I've been using "commercial" for those and then "industrial" for the 100k machine shop stuff. fake edit: "mid range" seems to work for Google
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Nov 18, 2021 20:45
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The planned XL has a bed of 4x4 heating elements Would be neat to see a 4x5 or 4x6 element model, or someone offers a stretch kit, presumably you could go to 14 x 17.5", or 14 x 21" which is truly human scale As an example, at 14x14 you can print a boba Fett helmet, but at 14x21 you can print every piece of boba Fett body armor, except maybe the chest plate And yeah the XL is definitely on the high end of consumer product, borderline commercial
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Nov 18, 2021 20:45
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Under 3k I would say is home use. Total amateur hobbyist stuff down at the $250 price point, and near the top you have "prosumer" use cases (ugh I hate that word). 3k-10k I would call "office use," like a big xerox printer/copier vs your desktop laserjet. Something that you probably wouldn't have in your house but is totally appropriate for a small design or engineering or architecture firm. Stuff like the MarkForged or FormLabs machines fit in here, and now the Prusa XL on the cheaper end of that range. 10k is the starting point for commercial machines that you want to run 24 hours a day. The difference between "commercial" and "industrial" is just semantic, or perhaps a matter of scale. For a million dollars you could have four Polyjets or 25 Dimensions, running a commercial model-making studio or a light industry. It's hazy. Also, just like with 2D printers, there's this weird gulf where, for a lot of office/small business purposes, you can totally get away with a couple of laserjets (mk3s) instead of one big xerox (dimension) and the established players haven't really caught up yet. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 20:55
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Hadlock posted:How quickly do you think it will take to go from 5 to 10 tool change mods. Haven't looked at it closely yet but seems like you could position a second row of tool heads nearby with an expansion kit I suspect p steep diminishing returns apply to any multi-head design; 2 feedstocks is a game-changer and enables a huge range of novel fabrication techniques and remarkable composite material design opportunities, 3 feedstocks is great, but soon you’re down to doubling the tool changing capacity (and cost, and complexity, and consumables+operating cost, and etc) only getting you “upgrading from “several” to “generous” colour options”, which i suspect is only gonna be a Would Be Nice-tier feature for most hobbyists. cnc machining toolchangers can get very silly with tool change magazine capacities, but that’s a very different ballgame- most machine tooling is fairly task-specific, so the limit for what you can achieve in a single program can often be limited by the number of drills/reamers you can call a toolchange for; the geometries of the parts you can practically produce is heavily dictated by the tooling available. that’s not the case with 3d printing, and most multi-tool setups constitute working in entirely different mediums in a single uninterrupted program. it’s like: 5 machining tool heads gets you a dial indicator for zeroing; a center drill, a pilot drill, a reamer, top it off with a workhorse endmill and you can now make anything you want, as long as that thing is some sort of roughly-shaped block with a bunch of same-sized holes in it. vs: 5 FDM feedstocks gets you basically every important engineering material, covering a huge range of mechanical properties and ideal use-cases, and you’ll still probably have a head or two free for something exotic and specialized like water-soluble supports or burnout-sintering metal filled filaments. colours are the only thing that really prompts large tool magazines here, and most creative applications won’t need more than a handful of colour options, imo Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 20:57
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I can't wait to see who the first person is to run klipper on this with an ERCF hooked up to each of the 5 toolheads.
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Nov 18, 2021 21:00
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Some of it looks neat, but I'm not convinced that frame is rigid enough for higher speeds.
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Nov 18, 2021 21:07
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So, I have a 3d model, and I'm not sure how to make the change I want to make it more printable. The original modeler made them all pre-hollowed, which is loving up my infill: How can i remove the interior 'faces' (is that the right term?) to make this a solid object with no interior perimeters?
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Nov 18, 2021 21:15
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Some of it looks neat, but I'm not convinced that frame is rigid enough for higher speeds. They aren't advertising it as a high speed machine. I think you're like the only person in here who is concerned about high speed printing, anyway. Like yeah in a vacuum it's nice, but increasing print speed makes all your engineering exponentially more challenging and your output less reliable. For hobbyists high speed doesn't matter, and for production you just buy more printers and work in parallel. I suppose there are rare cases where you are exclusively doing one-offs and you need them as fast as possible. Like last-minute movie props or something. Extreme niche market. Deviant posted:So, I have a 3d model, and I'm not sure how to make the change I want to make it more printable. The original modeler made them all pre-hollowed, which is loving up my infill: Open it in a polygon editor and delete all the faces that form the interior shell. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 21:18
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Sagebrush posted:
I'm gonna need you to dumb this way down. If I knew how to do that, we wouldn't be here. I know how to operate Prusaslicer on a good day. Edit: Remesh in blender seems to be doing it? Edit Edit: Nope it blew up. Deviant fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 21:23
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Cory Parsnipson posted:
The only comparable I can really think of is the ultimaker s5, which has like half the features and only two tool heads and a smaller bed at $7000 And infinitely less modable and repairable The prusa XL is truly insane
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Nov 18, 2021 21:31
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Deviant posted:I'm gonna need you to dumb this way down. If I knew how to do that, we wouldn't be here. 1) Open it in blender. 2) Press shift-Z to view in wireframe mode. 3) Press tab to switch to edit mode. 4) Press 3 to choose face selection mode. 5) Look around inside the model and spot all the internal faces that make up that inner shell. 6) ctrl-Click the dot in the middle of each one to select it, then tap delete to delete it. 6 (alternate) ctrl-Click the dot in the middle of one internal face to select it, then press shift-L to select all linked faces. This might select the whole shell in one go. Tap delete to delete it. 7) Once all the internal faces are gone, re-export as STL and you should be good to go. edit: control-click to select through faces Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 21:32
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Sagebrush posted:Open it in blender. When I try to do that it also selects the external faces, because they're in the way. 
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Nov 18, 2021 21:34
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Sorry, you need to control-click to select a face in behind another face. Do that instead.
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Nov 18, 2021 21:37
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Sagebrush posted:Sorry, you need to control-click to select a face in behind another face. Do that instead. I like it, but Shift+L just pops up 'Select Linked' and doesn't seem to actually modify my selection in any way. And maybe i'm in the wrong mode, but Ctrl click is giving me Select shortest path Edit: It's just L, i got it. Thanks! Deviant fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 21:38
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Dr. Despair posted:I can't wait to see who the first person is to run klipper on this with an ERCF hooked up to each of the 5 toolheads. Well, the actual blog post about the XL says it's going to be running Klipper already...
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Nov 18, 2021 21:40
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Zorro KingOfEngland posted:Prusa XL preorders are up https://www.prusa3d.com/product/original-prusa-xl-2/ Of all the days to get a really late start to my day 
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Nov 18, 2021 21:46
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Sagebrush posted:They aren't advertising it as a high speed machine. I think you're like the only person in here who is concerned about high speed printing, anyway. With that volume, yes, speed most definitely matters. Their toolheads will be relatively heavy too, again further reducing speed. The engineering for it isn't hard, so I'm curious to why they haven't.
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Nov 18, 2021 22:11
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They said the reason they aren't publishing speed benchmarks is because they're still tweaking the firmware settings with the existing design. Unless you're pulling 1 meter per second there's no way you're going to drastically improve print times on something that fills that print area. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 22:16
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Their announcement specifically says they're not chasing speed, but Klipper is there for those who want to push the envelope. Big prints can be a multi-day thing  Personally that's right up my alley because I choose slow and steady but consistent over speed any day of the week. Not everyone rolls that way and that's cool. Don't get me wrong, fast is great but right the first time is always better in my world.
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Nov 18, 2021 22:20
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I just got done putting together a voron 2.4 350mm and it’s real drat nice and fast even without pushing anything speed wise. This thing will probably still run circles around a mk3s even with a 100% quality focused tune.
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Nov 18, 2021 22:33
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Do we know what any of the XL's potential addons will be? Enclosure accordion and ???
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Nov 18, 2021 22:38
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ImplicitAssembler posted:With that volume, yes, speed most definitely matters. Their toolheads will be relatively heavy too, again further reducing speed. The engineering for it isn't hard, so I'm curious to why they haven't. Engineering quality, reliability, and speed all at the same time is, in fact, hard. Otherwise everyone would be doing it. Certainly cost isn't much of a concern for Prusa. They appear to have considered the print speed, but are focusing on more on the quality and reliability figures:  Deviant posted:Do we know what any of the XL's potential addons will be? Enclosure accordion and ??? I assume one of them will be some sort of milling tool, since that's where everyone goes with toolchanging, though I don't really like the idea of clogging up a 3D printer's ways with machining dust. A pick-and-place to stick inserts into prints as they're being printed could be fun. Could put in a pen, if you want the world's most overdesigned plotter. Unlicensed blu-ray laser diode for maximum Aliexpress cred  e: oh, you said addons, and I was thinking about alternate tools. idk Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 22:51
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Deviant posted:Do we know what any of the XL's potential addons will be? Enclosure accordion and ??? Sure looks like you'd be able to expand the print volume from 14x14x14 to 14xNx14 where N is some multiple of 3.5" with just a bolt on kit, new belts, and for larger X expansion, a larger wiring cord. N could easily be 14, 17.5, 21 or 24.5. there's few household objects you'd want to print larger than 14x24.5x14. if you went 12 heating tiles wide, you'd have a build surface of 1 meter long with an inch to spare The longer the X axis, the more tool heads you can add; I don't disagree with the diminishing returns, but somewhere between 5 and 7 is probably enough for nearly anyone, seems like I'd use something like: 1. Cheap pla for prototypes 2. Abs 3. High strength Nylon carbon fiber 4. Water soluble support 5. TPU 6. ABS color B 7. ABS color C 8. TPU color B Hadlock fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 23:01
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Sure, whatever. But you still want to be able to print reliable at 200-250mm/s on that size printer. Especially at that cost. Most other CoreXY designs have found that they need additional bracing to do so, so I do not think it's unreasonable to question the design choice.
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Nov 18, 2021 23:03
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For everyone itching for water soluble supports, I’ve heard good things (but not tested) using PETG for supports as it pops off super clean, is cheaper, not as hygroscopic, and you don’t need to go through all the mess of dissolving and brushing it I should probably try it at some point on the MMU E: to be clear, petg supports for such as PLA
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Nov 18, 2021 23:26
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my interest in water soluble supports mostly stems from wanting to build large, hollow objects. For my 8' boat project I had to build a bunch of supports at weird 68 degree angles to print without supports. Could have finished the STL weeks earlier had I just been able to print it without FDM in mind, filled it with hot water, sloshed it around a bit and poured out 90%+ of the supports
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Nov 19, 2021 00:06
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Soluble supports are great when there literally isn't another option, but having dealt with the Stratasys SR30 (dissolves in a dilute lye bath, but generally behaves like a less finicky PVA) they aren't a magical solution. Internal supports pretty much required a heated ultrasonic bath to get them dissolved in anything close to a reasonable time (less than a few days). Your solvent, no matter the type, needs to be circulating around it to work well. I've heard limonene and HIPS is faster to dissolve but have never tried it myself.
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Nov 19, 2021 02:10
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ImplicitAssembler posted:The engineering for it isn't hard, LOL. Sure. Also, pre-ordered a 5 tool XL. gently caress it. It's been a good year for the company. 
sharkytm fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 02:29
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