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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Moiraine shows up in the Two Rivers at the exact right moment and saves the kids and takes them away because she suspects one of them is the Dragon Reborn so she wants to get them to Tar Valon so they can be safe until the Last Battle and in the process they end up in Shadar Logoth where Mat picks up a cursed dagger, then they get separated, Perrin and Egwene end up traveling with Tinkers and eventually captured by Whitecloaks but get rescued by an attack from the wolves, Nynaeve tracks Lan and Moiraine and demands to know where the kids are and discovers she is a powerful channeler, Rand and Mat travel with Thom who they think dies defending them from a Fade, Rand meets Loial in a library of an inn, they all end up reconnecting in a giant metropolis, and after a warning they decide to use the Ways to reach the Eye of the World. The show. In the books Perrin and Egwene were rescued by Lan/Moiraine/Nynaeve, not by wolves. In the book, the wolves are what got them in so much trouble, not what got them out of it. Personally, I think the changes are generally good and necessary for the format.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:41
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Moiraine shows up in the Two Rivers at the exact right moment and saves the kids and takes them away because she suspects one of them is the Dragon Reborn so she wants to get them to Tar Valon so they can be safe until the Last Battle and in the process they end up in Shadar Logoth where Mat picks up a cursed dagger, then they get separated, Perrin and Egwene end up traveling with Tinkers and eventually captured by Whitecloaks but get rescued by an attack from the wolves, Nynaeve tracks Lan and Moiraine and demands to know where the kids are and discovers she is a powerful channeler, Rand and Mat travel with Thom who they think dies defending them from a Fade, Rand meets Loial in a library of an inn, they all end up reconnecting in a giant metropolis, and after a warning they decide to use the Ways to reach the Eye of the World. The skeleton might be the same but the specifics are completely different between the two. To be clear I do like the show. It's almost like I'm simultaneously thrilled and disappointed. I like what I'm seeing but I also wish I could have seen cool moments from the actual book on screen like the boys adventures in Baerlon (which would have gone a long way towards giving them more screen time to develop a personality) and Rand falling into the Garden/meeting Elayne and Morgase/Elaida. The only things I absolutely hate so far are the changes to Mat's character and the booty call ter'angreal. We also got like two seconds of Thom before he 'died' whereas if he'd been there from the start we could have seen more of him. I also feel like the air of mystery from the book is missing somewhat.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:47
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The Lord Bude posted:If he loves them so much why did he remove 95% of the actual plot of TEOTW and replace it with a new one? t Most of the changes are because of the limitations of a television show and the fact that a television show has to show, not tell. Logain's increased prominence is because they had to show why it's a bad thing for a man to be able to channel. Stepin exists to explain the warder bond's importance so that Lan doesn't look like too much of an rear end in a top hat when he turns down Nynaeve. Thom's changes are because you can't introduce too many characters at once and there wasn't room for him in the running time of the opening episodes. Baerlon was cut for time. Going to Tar Valon rather than Caemlyn is because it's easier storytelling to just have Moiraine shout "everyone to Tar Valon!" than to explain the geography of everyone's routes, and they needed recurring reusable sets for later seasons to keep the budget down and Tar Valon is an easier central hub, and because there wasn't time in the season to introduce the Caemlyn characters, and because you can't cast actors for roles a season early and there isn't much for Elayne to do yet. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 12:48
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It also shows a bit of the potential consequences if they do the 'Alanna binds Rand' thing and it'll make Moiraine's pseudo-death more impactful.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Most of the changes are because a television show has to show, not tell. I still think you can work those things in while also staying truer to the plot of the books. And I don't buy why they had to replace Caemlyn with Tar Valon. You need both of them eventually, it doesn't make a difference which set you build first.
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Dec 13, 2021 12:53
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The Lord Bude posted:I still think you can work those things in while also staying truer to the plot of the books. Maybe there's a way to have done that, sure. Point I was making is that there are very clear reasons for all the changes; none of them are a big mystery, none of them are arbitrarily abandoning The Lord Bude posted:95% of the actual plot of TEOTW Whatever they're doing they're very clearly trying to tell essentially the same story as Eye of the World (with some of New Spring mixed in), adapted for the limitations of television. You can think they're doing a bad job of it sure and that's a matter of opinion. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 12:59
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The Lord Bude posted:I still think you can work those things in while also staying truer to the plot of the books. And I don't buy why they had to replace Caemlyn with Tar Valon. You need both of them eventually, it doesn't make a difference which set you build first. Apart from Tar Valon being absolutely central to the story from book 2 on while Caemlyn disappears for half the series and returns in a plot arc that is the first thing any sane showrunner will cut? Nah, no difference at all.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:08
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Khizan posted:The show. In the books Perrin and Egwene were rescued by Lan/Moiraine/Nynaeve, not by wolves. In the book, the wolves are what got them in so much trouble, not what got them out of it. You found the 5% difference, congrats!
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Dec 13, 2021 13:20
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Moiraine shows up in the Two Rivers at the exact right moment and saves the kids and takes them away because she suspects one of them is the Dragon Reborn so she wants to get them to Tar Valon so they can be safe until the Last Battle and in the process they end up in Shadar Logoth where Mat picks up a cursed dagger, then they get separated, Perrin and Egwene end up traveling with Tinkers and eventually captured by Whitecloaks but get rescued by an attack from the wolves, Nynaeve tracks Lan and Moiraine and demands to know where the kids are and discovers she is a powerful channeler, Rand and Mat travel with Thom who they think dies defending them from a Fade, Rand meets Loial in a library of an inn, they all end up reconnecting in a giant metropolis, and after a warning they decide to use the Ways to reach the Eye of the World. Well, Perrin and Egwene get saved from the Whitecloaks by Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve in the book. Not wolves.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:31
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I've been thinking about the extra time Judkins wanted and what it could have been used for. The extra hour in the pilot is pretty obvious, I think; do more to set up the culture of the world and the Two Rivers, particularly the beliefs and attitudes around Aes Sedai, the Power, the Dragon and the Dark. I imagine we would also have had the Manetheren story in its proper context. I'm not sure if they bother to introduce Thom here or not- he would definitely be helpful in setting up all that stuff and increasing the tension around Moiraine, but it is a whole other major character to introduce in an episode that already has a lot of them. I think we have another episode between Shadar Logoth and Tar Valon, this one focusing primarily on Egwene and Perrin. That's the arc I think has been worst served by the compression. I think you probably do actually keep Elyas; he does the same thing for Perrin's wolf stuff that Stepin and Kerene for the warder bond, and it's not like you actually need to worry about the actor- he can easily be a once and done character. The whitecloak capture and escape sequence I think also happens before we get to Tar Valon- there's no good reason to have that happen literally in the shadow of the Tower and I think you avoid it if you can. B-plot can be a little Mat and Rand travelling, before or after they lose Thom- just to make that journey feel lengthier, maybe give the farm stuff more breathing room. You don't have to add much, just a couple of scenes really. The other extra episode, I think we spread the Tar Valon stuff across three rather than two and do more character work with the kids. Wow we're in a big city, Ishamael chats, a more fleshed out reunion stuff, more Loial probably. Probably foreshadow the Eye more- I mean it's honestly shocking how little setup that have. What do we get in the books, it's like, a bit in the dreams, a bit from the Tinkers and the bit from Loial? It would not have taken much time at all to replicate that in the show. The alternative is Baerlon, but I kind of doubt they'd want to build those sets.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:34
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Speaking of the 5% difference- the WoT up guy said that his source tells him Elyas will be coming in S2, although merged with another character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grq45gY0rgI&t=610s
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Dec 13, 2021 13:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Maybe there's a way to have done that, sure. This is the point surely - they have adapted the books for TV. The key word is adapted - ie changed it to make it work on TV. As Hieronymous Alloy posted, they seem to be trying to tell the same story (albeit with adaptations) and so it will not be a carbon copy of the books. That will not please everyone but as has been said before you can't please all of the people all of the time. I think (as with all adaptations to be honest) if a fan is looking at a TV series through the lens of it must be true to the book in every detail then they are setting themselves up for disappointment because that was never going to happen. Personally I would rather sit back and enjoy it for what it is - the best adaptation of WoT I have seen :-)
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Dec 13, 2021 13:36
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Hexel posted:Speaking of the 5% difference- the WoT up guy said that his source tells him Elyas will be coming in S2, although merged with another character. That would make sense. It's just too easy a way to explain the wolfbrother stuff and you can slot him in anywhere you can find space, really.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:36
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Andoman posted:- the best adaptation of WoT I have seen :-) Billy Zane erasure right here
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Dec 13, 2021 13:39
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Andoman posted:This is the point surely - they have adapted the books for TV. The key word is adapted - ie changed it to make it work on TV. As Hieronymous Alloy posted, they seem to be trying to tell the same story (albeit with adaptations) and so it will not be a carbon copy of the books. That will not please everyone but as has been said before you can't please all of the people all of the time. I think (as with all adaptations to be honest) if a fan is looking at a TV series through the lens of it must be true to the book in every detail then they are setting themselves up for disappointment because that was never going to happen. Personally I would rather sit back and enjoy it for what it is - the best adaptation of WoT I have seen :-) Adaptations can be more or less faithful to their source material. WoT is an adaptation that strays quite far from the source material. Most of the big changes aren't ones where you can say 'it HAD to be this way because TV is a different medium'. There are a few things from the books where yes you probably would HAVE to change them because they would look super dumb on-screen. But everything else is a matter of judgment by the showrunners, or dictated by the studio and the limited resources of the production. WoT's showrunners decided to change a ton of stuff. It is what it is. I think as swords&sorcery fantasy nerds maybe we're quite spoiled by the big blockbuster fantasy adaptations all being quite literal adaptations? I'm thinking about LOTR, GoT, the Witcher. I figured those must be the most popular fantasy adaptations (maybe not the Witcher, I dunno)... They all stick pretty close to their source material (not the latter seasons of GoT obviously - and Witcher had to add stuff to stitch together the short stories into a coherent narrative). Perhaps we've gotten used to the idea that talented people really can translate these weird books onto screen whilst preserving so much of them (even preserving weird unnatural Tolkein dialogue, for example). It's been quite jarring for me to see this adaptation of WoT which deliberately steps away from the books in so many ways.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:54
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There are a lot of changes in LotR also we're just more used to them with time. Bombadil, glorfindel, scouring, Aragorn French kissing his horse, Orcs having menus, etc.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:57
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El Grillo posted:To be fair to people in this thread I don't think there's been anyone saying you have to make a carbon copy of the book. I mean goons are dumb but most are not quite that dumb. We probably all have our little details we would have loved to see in the show but that doesn't mean we don't get that it's a TV show not a book, so things do have to be changed to make it work. goons are absolutely that dumb
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Dec 13, 2021 13:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are a lot of changes in LotR also we're just more used to them with time. Bombadil, glorfindel, scouring, Aragorn French kissing his horse, Orcs having menus, etc. The internet rage over The Fellowship of the Ring was exponentially greater than current book reader rage regarding WoT. These same pedants constantly cite the LOTR adaptation as a masterpiece now and how it should be done.
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Dec 13, 2021 13:59
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crepeface posted:goons are absolutely that dumb ^^^ this, there's been many people, in this thread and otherwise, being exactly this dumb and dumber lol. I fervently wish that we'd get 10 or 13 episode seasons just so far less needs to be trimmed and my personal favorite scenes are more likely to be in for certain, but, like, this crew has already shown to me that they very clearly have the chops for knowing exactly what makes the wheel of time work as a story, and we're gonna get something great from that. Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 14:03
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This is literally going on right now! e:oops double post, thx awful.
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Dec 13, 2021 14:05
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The root of most of the changes is the decision to bring Moiraine and aes sedai politics to the forefront in the first season. The main reason to do that is to show new viewers one of the most interesting parts of the world and give them a taste of the broader political trajectory the show might follow in the future. Readers of 800 page fantasy epics expect a slow burn, your average person clicking into Amazon's new fantasy TV series on a whim needs a more compelling case delivered more quickly. I think this makes sense and anecdotally I've roped in a few show-only people who weren't invested at all until episodes 4-6. My mom actually said "I have no idea how this show could sustain eight seasons" after episode 3, but she's going back and rewatching now that episodes 4-6 got her interested. El Grillo posted:I think as swords&sorcery fantasy nerds maybe we're quite spoiled by the big blockbuster fantasy adaptations all being quite literal adaptations? I'm thinking about LOTR, GoT, the Witcher. I figured those must be the most popular fantasy adaptations (maybe not the Witcher, I dunno)... They all stick pretty close to their source material (not the latter seasons of GoT obviously - and Witcher had to add stuff to stitch together the short stories into a coherent narrative). Perhaps we've gotten used to the idea that talented people really can translate these weird books onto screen whilst preserving so much of them (even preserving weird unnatural Tolkein dialogue, for example). It's been quite jarring for me to see this adaptation of WoT which deliberately steps away from the books in so many ways. In LotR there was some cultural awareness of most of its fantasy trappings (elves, dwarves, orcs, wizards) before it came out. It basically just has to establish the rings and the hobbits and then send them out on a fantasy adventure. And they're only two hour movies, so a plot that's mostly "hobbits on the run" is more sustainable, and they can concentrate more budget/min. For GoT it's almost written on the page like a modern prestige TV series. The fantasy elements are very minimal, it's 99% family and political drama. No idea on The Witcher, I have not watched it.
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Dec 13, 2021 14:10
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Wait, wait, is the claim that LotR, GoT, and The Witcher are more accurate adaptions than Wot? Because lol
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Dec 13, 2021 14:11
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El Grillo posted:To be fair to people in this thread I don't think there's been anyone saying you have to make a carbon copy of the book. I mean goons are dumb but most are not quite that dumb. We probably all have our little details we would have loved to see in the show but that doesn't mean we don't get that it's a TV show not a book, so things do have to be changed to make it work. I would agree with this. Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are a lot of changes in LotR also we're just more used to them with time. Bombadil, glorfindel, scouring, Aragorn French kissing his horse, Orcs having menus, etc. With regards to LotR I think it's more faithful overall; while also being harder to do because they had to condense each book into a feature film, Rafe has the luxury of more time. Many of the changes in LotR were things being omitted to fit into a feature film (and it's telling that most people prefer the extended versions of those films). Bombadil was a kinda tangent that made sense to cut given the time limits and the Scouring was awkward - it's kinda like the expansion pack to a video game - the main story is done but hang on we gotta go do some other poo poo now. With WoT they omitted large chunks of what actually happened in the book in order to shoehorn in new material and that rubs me the wrong way; even though I enjoy watching it. Chomposaur posted:The root of most of the changes is the decision to bring Moiraine and aes sedai politics to the forefront in the first season. The main reason to do that is to show new viewers one of the most interesting parts of the world and give them a taste of the broader political trajectory the show might follow in the future. Readers of 800 page fantasy epics expect a slow burn, your average person clicking into Amazon's new fantasy TV series on a whim needs a more compelling case delivered more quickly. I can kinda understand that even though I don't really like it - personally I don't give a gently caress what non book readers think, but I'm also not in charge of making sure this makes money and is popular enough to justify 8 seasons so I understand why they have to be pandered to, to a certain extent. I just hope that once they've been hooked in the show steers closer to the books. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 14:12
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Hexel posted:
I mean, they're correct in that. But the LotR adaptations had roughly three hundred million 2001 dollars to adapt roughly 900 pages of text plus appendices. Meanwhile, Rafe has roughly eighty million 2021 dollars to adapt roughly 800 pages of text. It's a much tougher job. Amazon hosed up by making WoT their backup play and dumping all the big dollars into the Numenor spinoff.
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Dec 13, 2021 14:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, they're correct in that. But the LotR adaptations had roughly three hundred million 2001 dollars to adapt roughly 900 pages of text plus appendices. Meanwhile, Rafe has roughly eighty million 2021 dollars to adapt roughly 800 pages of text. It's a much tougher job. If I were adapting a fantasy epic I'd value the creative freedom of 8-12 episode seasons over the budget of a feature film every time. I think the genre is better suited to TV. That being said I'm willing to bet now that the show has been a crazypants success they'll be getting more money thrown at them. Would have been very interesting actually to live in an alternate universe where Harry Potter was turned into a 7 season Prestige drama instead of 8 movies. I wonder if they'll ever try and redo it.
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Dec 13, 2021 14:35
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I'm watching Arcane right now and it strikes me as being about as close to a deliberate depiction of the Age of Legends in WoT as I can imagine. A little steampunk, a little Korra, a little Syd Mead Jayce is pretty much exactly how I picture LTT for example Data Graham fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 14:43
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why... why would they make a prestige show aimed at kids
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Dec 13, 2021 14:46
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crepeface posted:why... why would they make a prestige show aimed at kids 1. not just for kids 2. you don't think a netflix or a disney+ would want to spend money on a family friendly show that adapts one of the most popular series of books ever written?
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Dec 13, 2021 14:51
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The Lord Bude posted:1. not just for kids they'd just make a cartoon. is there even a single family friendly prestige show with a decent budget
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Dec 13, 2021 14:58
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The Lord Bude posted:1. not just for kids Potter popularity has gone off a cliff since Rowling went full TERF.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:06
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On the 'how close is the adaptation' chat, I found this about FOTR: https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/ I really love the acronyms (GBSM) 
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Dec 13, 2021 15:06
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El Grillo posted:On the 'how close is the adaptation' chat, I found this about FOTR: https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/  Tolkien's legacy ruined
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Dec 13, 2021 15:09
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i don't think these lord of the rings movies are going to be successful. i hear they took out bombadil!!!
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Dec 13, 2021 15:18
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Johnny Joestar posted:i don't think these lord of the rings movies are going to be successful. i hear they took out bombadil!!! thank god they did the hobbit justice by giving it 9 hours of screen time though
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Dec 13, 2021 15:20
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I really don't get the insane "i want the books converted into a teleplay, cut nothing" fans for this series because there's already a great performed 1 for 1 adaptation of the books, and it's called the audiobooks. it has different voices for different characters, dramatic reading, everything you could want
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Dec 13, 2021 15:25
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Jedit posted:Potter popularity has gone off a cliff since Rowling went full TERF. That's a good point, although it's hard to properly gauge how much of an impact that has in reality - I mean authors like Orson Scott Card are still wildly popular despite being far worse than Rowling. I think the average person either has no idea about the relatively recent stuff re Rowling or is willing to separate their opinion of the books from the author. IIRC that spinoff series of films is still hugely successful despite the dual controversies of Rowling and Depp and also being extremely poo poo movies? I think in a hypothetical world where Rowling hadn't inexplicably gone beserk, a streaming adaptation of the Potter books would have been an enormous success even though the films already exist. And speaking of adapting books made for a younger audience, IIRC Tamora Pierce's books are finally getting an adaptation although I forget if it's film or TV, I think tv - those are also books I've wanted to see on screen for a very long time and I hope they prove successful.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:27
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At least 60% of the books are internal monologue. Man that would sure make for some great TV.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:27
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Nitrousoxide posted:At least 60% of the books are internal monologue. The David Lynch Dune style.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:29
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whole episodes of perrin just telling us what people smell like
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Dec 13, 2021 15:30
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The Lord Bude posted:With WoT they omitted large chunks of what actually happened in the book in order to shoehorn in new material and that rubs me the wrong way; even though I enjoy watching it. Wheel of time series wordcount: 4410036 Wheel of time hours available: 64 LotR trilogy wordcount: 481103 LotR trilogy movies runtime: 9.5 Words per hour to be adapted: WoT: 68907 LotR: 50642 Lord of the rings had it easier. With less worldbuilding done in the source material. Magic? I dunno, old guy just waves sticks around. There's no explanation at all about it. There's like 4 countries on the entire continent. And the only politicking involved is the world most obviously evil lobbyist.
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Dec 13, 2021 15:34
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