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I remarked a while back on the divergence between central and provincial interests re: debt/"stability" vs growth, so these developments are remarkable: https://twitter.com/michaelxpettis/status/1473872669095432194 https://twitter.com/michaelxpettis/status/1474323680352256016 https://twitter.com/michaelxpettis/status/1474619933069910016 not leaving provincial governments with much options besides just accepting their fate as perpetually low-growth regions for the foreseeable future, I suppose (and then getting the blame for one's trouble) ronya fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 25, 2021 |
# ? Dec 24, 2021 16:14 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:21 |
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A big flaming stink posted:the degree to which the CPC refuses to engage in critical analysis of Tiananmen square and instead straight up memory holes it is honestly really weird. the cpc has been entirely consistent with grappling with all the major actions the party has taken in the past (cultural revolution etc) and to fail to do so in this case is just weird as heck, frankly. Perhaps it’s because the whole world was watching Tiananmen live for some time (until they pulled the feed)? The Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward and many other megascale atrocities they’ve committed were covered up from the beginning. And/or the delay in responding to the protesters with atrocity made the CCP look weak and indecisive in the eyes of the Chinese people and that must never happen, so it never happened.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 19:01 |
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I think its more that historical revisionism by the CCP has usually been a tool of new generations of leadership to break with policies/leaders of the past, and there is no desire at all anywhere in the system to break with 'do not gently caress with the absolute right of the CCP to set policy and decide how the CCP leadership gets determined'.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 19:57 |
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The CCP did actually study the reasons why Tianemen happened and the result was the ‘the hundred years of humiliation’ propaganda campaign, basically they started taking kids on tours accross China to the sites of every crime committed against China by Europe and the Japanese to instill into the youth how China is under siege from western attempts to fracture it and stop the economic and technological progress by sowing discord and protest.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 20:02 |
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Al-Saqr posted:The CCP did actually study the reasons why Tianemen happened and the result was the ‘the hundred years of humiliation’ propaganda campaign, basically they started taking kids on tours accross China to the sites of every crime committed against China by Europe and the Japanese to instill into the youth how China is under siege from western attempts to fracture it and stop the economic and technological progress by sowing discord and protest. Oh yeah I dont mean to suggest that the CCP is disinterested in understanding the 'private truth' of what happened and why.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 20:05 |
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They should build a monument for the tank drivers.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 20:13 |
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Mantis42 posted:They should build a monument for the tank drivers. That's an abhorrent opinion. Why do you think so?
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 21:18 |
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How are u posted:That's an abhorrent opinion. Why do you think so? Have you ever had to clean student brains out of treads? It takes ages.
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# ? Dec 24, 2021 21:42 |
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I had a Chinese professor who was a student in China at the time of Tiananmen Square. They had a lot to say about it, but the takeaway in her opinion seemed to be that it was started by racists who objected to international (esp. Black African) students getting enrolled and funded to go to university in Beijing on government scholarships; that there were a lot of salacious rumors about big dick black guys “stealing” or even forcing themselves on pure and innocent Han co-eds and that the protest at its beginning was more like a Southern White lynch mob than a pro-democracy protest, although they acknowledged that was what it became. I always wondered how much of that origin story was true. The professor claimed first-hand knowledge, but didn’t have any personal involvement with the protests.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 01:24 |
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How are u posted:That's an abhorrent opinion. Why do you think so? it would be fun to blow up at least, like the Haymarket Memorial
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 02:17 |
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Possibly stupid question re the "Tower of Shame" statue. Do we know where it went? Has it been dismantled completely and melted down for scrap, or is it in a police warehouse somewhere in Hong Kong where they keep all the poo poo they confiscate? I heard the artist is a Danish(?) bloke, will they just crate it up and send it back to him?
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 03:49 |
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"What statue?"
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 04:59 |
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I can’t find the original stories from SCMP and HKFP, but as I recall authorities said it was put into storage somewhere. I assume it will be destroyed. The artist Jens Galschiot requested they return it to him, but I think the ownership was ambiguous enough that they can ignore him. (Again IIRC) HKU claims they tried to contact the group that ‘owned’ it, but conveniently that group was one of the Tiananmen remembrance groups that had just been disbanded.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 05:35 |
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SMERSH Mouth posted:I had a Chinese professor who was a student in China at the time of Tiananmen Square. They had a lot to say about it, but the takeaway in her opinion seemed to be that it was started by racists who objected to international (esp. Black African) students getting enrolled and funded to go to university in Beijing on government scholarships; that there were a lot of salacious rumors about big dick black guys “stealing” or even forcing themselves on pure and innocent Han co-eds and that the protest at its beginning was more like a Southern White lynch mob than a pro-democracy protest, although they acknowledged that was what it became. I always wondered how much of that origin story was true. The professor claimed first-hand knowledge, but didn’t have any personal involvement with the protests. They are full of poo poo.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 06:34 |
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It started as a tribute to former General Secretary Hu Yaobang, who had died of a heart attack. He had been a reformist who had been forced to resign after his policies of economic reform and political liberalization were blamed for student protests. The original thing they wanted was an exoneration of him, and that turned into a more general protest.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 07:45 |
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A while back I quoted a review of Weber's How China Avoided Shock Therapy: ronya posted:apropos of nothing, a narrative I found fascinating: That is to say, the 'wrong' faction survived the post-Tiananmen political purges. Due to the quirks of the way the 1988 reaction played out - with the Zhao's vacillation, resulting political isolation, and subsequent purge - it is the liberal would-be shock therapists that avoided getting the blame for promoting protest and political weakness. Instead, those who most resisted shock therapy were stuck with the blame for destabilisation and thus destroyed. The subsequent rapid disintegration of the USSR ensured that this conventional wisdom would not be easily unwound - the shock therapists themselves were now too cautious to proceed with the shock therapy they had once advocated. An interplay between ideological factions and personal loyalty is always inevitable, but here they intermeshed so that no clear ideological triumph could be proclaimed. So, after the fact, there is no faction that can be just charged with the bill. Best to just forget about it all together whilst an uncomfortable coalition of old school neo-authoritarian Soviet-nostalgic conservatives and neo-liberal Westernised liberalisers steers the country. Prominently absent: the socialism-with-a-human-face types. ronya fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Dec 25, 2021 |
# ? Dec 25, 2021 09:35 |
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Chinese city of Xian sees Covid cases rise as it enters third day of lockdown Residents are banned from leaving the city and non-essential workers can only leave home to buy food https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/25/chinese-city-of-xian-sees-covid-case-rise-as-it-enters-third-day-of-lockdown quote:The Chinese city of Xian has reported an increase in daily Covid-19 infections and local companies have curtailed activity as the country’s latest hotspot entered its third day of lockdown. Could it be the beginning of the end of "zero-Covid" China? Time will tell.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 17:55 |
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How are u posted:Chinese city of Xian sees Covid cases rise as it enters third day of lockdown We've had weddings in this state with more cases. China is crushing the COVID game.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 18:18 |
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How are u posted:Chinese city of Xian sees Covid cases rise as it enters third day of lockdown I am amazed how they have been so adamant on Covid zero policies when almost everyone else has abandoned them since it isn't feasible. If every single country introduced the same harsh measures of welding people in their homes for 6 weeks...maybe we can wipe out Covid. But as it stands, with Omicrom, even a handful of travellers entering the country will bring in cases.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 19:07 |
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Every other government giving up and letting people die isnt proof that its the right move, jesus. Its hard to read that article and not get bummed that our government has neither the will or the way to protect people from COVID that strongly.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 19:26 |
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How are u posted:That's an abhorrent opinion. Why do you think so? Mantis42 posted:Also I was specifically referring to the liberals within China who made up the Tiananmen protests and comparing them to the Polish libs who started the Soviet Union down the road to dissolution. They may not have intended for reactionary elements to make up the post collapse governments but that was the natural end result. Mantis42 posted:It's a shame that a bunch of liberals weren't able to accomplish what they did for the Soviet Union and completely collapse China's standard of living and allow the IMF and CIA choose their leaders for them. What a tragedy /s
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 19:29 |
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Well, at least he's consistent about being happy pro-democracy student protesters were crushed beneath tank treads.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 19:38 |
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Varinn posted:Every other government giving up and letting people die isnt proof that its the right move, jesus. You're assuming that they haven't been lying their asses off about their numbers.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 20:07 |
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Even if theyre slightly worse than what they say, there's absolutely no way they're even remotely close to ours, or itd be affecting enough people we'd have some knowledge of it. They're absolutely crushing it compared to almost every other nation. If the government was capable of that level of information control, we wouldnt know as much as we do about Xinjiang, yknow?
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 20:12 |
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I can absolutely see some level of misreporting, though not as a deliberate central policy but just individual provinces trying to look better. But, for the huge NPIs that China uses to crack down on Covid, you can't be denying all covid cases. It may be that a reported outbreak of 75 is maybe 100 or so in actuality, for example. But it's not Florida or Russia where excess deaths are skyrocketing as covid cases are obfuscated.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 20:22 |
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Varinn posted:Every other government giving up and letting people die isnt proof that its the right move, jesus. bolded and italicized - my emphasis I am actually glad our governments here in the west do not strip whatever civil liberties we have in order to combat a disease that isn't some extinction-level event. We had a shot back in early 2020 to kill Covid in the crib, but we failed and even countries with high levels of PHI compliance like South Korea and Singapore failed to stop it in its tracks due to international travel - a necessity in our global economy. But if you think what China is doing is cool and that level of authoritarianism is ok then by all means continue to do so. If you want to debate COVID policies and think the entire world should emulate China, then I invite you to take it to the COVID thread? In the mean time, China will continue to fail with its policy especially given Omicrom.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 20:40 |
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:You're assuming that they haven't been lying their asses off about their numbers. Remember all those stories the media was pushing back in Feb-April of 2020 about how China was underreporting the number of deaths and how you could totally tell because of excess crematorium demand etc? Notice how you don't see any of those stories right now even though everyone would obviously love to push that narrative? I would absolutely buy that the numbers might be massaged a little at the local level by some dumbass but if covid was anywhere near as out of control as it is in the united states there is legitimately no way that even the most brutal dictatorship on earth could cover it up. Like, the US healthcare system is about to collapse for the third time, imagine how many dead people there would be if we had 3 times the population and even less rural infrastructure. There's just no way they could mask that.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 21:19 |
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Benagain posted:Notice how you don't see any of those stories right now even though everyone would obviously love to push that narrative? Who is "everyone" and why is it "obvious" ?
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 21:26 |
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Indecisive superhero choosing between "force everyone to test & lockdown, send them food" and "protect freedoms, murder 3.5 million citizens".
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:25 |
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MikeC posted:muh liberties
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:38 |
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Neurolimal posted:Indecisive superhero choosing between "force everyone to test & lockdown, send them food" and "protect freedoms, murder 3.5 million citizens". lol, goons raging that they can't obtain the privilege of living under a repressive and authoritarian government just because they are all in on Covid zero.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:52 |
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MikeC posted:lol, goons raging that they can't obtain the privilege of living under a repressive and authoritarian government My guy are you remotely familiar with how the United States treats the oppressed. We have a relentlessly authoritarian government, it would be one hell of a welcome change to see that authoritarianism bent towards an end that preserves our lives.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:55 |
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If your opposition to China causes you to support policies that murder millions through negligence, you need to step back and re-examine your priorities. Saying "this kind of infrastructure and government support is enviable" is analogous to "I support everything China does" is just as jingoistic and short-sighted as supporting China simply because you hate the US.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:58 |
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As vaccinated individuals, our lives are preserved.
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# ? Dec 25, 2021 23:58 |
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How are u posted:As vaccinated individuals, our lives are preserved. Yeah who cares about the 800k
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 00:00 |
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How are u posted:As vaccinated individuals, our lives are preserved. Abandoning people to die is always abhorrent. But this sort of cold, callous take isn't suited for the China thread, unless we're discussing how it IS enviable that China made testing and quarantine protocols actually viable to people, as a person who for months was unable to get easily tested because almost every testing site in my city was drive-thru.
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 00:03 |
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Why does this always have to be said? Just because you oppose China and the CCP, does not mean you must necessarily 100% support the US. Nor indeed the nebulous concept of "the west". China's oppression can be bad independent of how bad the US's oppression is as well as how bad Portugal's oppression is etc. and so forth. This also applies to the different countries' COVID response.
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 00:07 |
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BrigadierSensible posted:Why does this always have to be said?
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 00:35 |
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A big flaming stink posted:My guy are you remotely familiar with how the United States treats the oppressed. Do you actually live in the US or China.
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 00:54 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:21 |
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you actually live in the US or China. i am from the us and i live in china and i agree with that guy
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# ? Dec 26, 2021 01:30 |