|
pretty soft girl posted:Have you considered that walking around in circles experiencing exactly nothing was actually exciting, fun, and memorable Nobody thinks this.
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:33 |
|
|
If you press select in FF7 it highlights you and other things on the map like exits. Big help! I remember getting really lost in the train graveyard as a kid though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
God I can't imagine playing Skyrim without arrows and sparkly road spells. It's the drabbest, grayest, ugliest high profile game I've ever played and exploration in it was a pain in the rear end
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:43
|
|
|
Calaveron posted:God I can't imagine playing Skyrim without arrows and sparkly road spells. It's the drabbest, grayest, ugliest high profile game I've ever played and exploration in it was a pain in the rear end Hey, you get to "explore" 50 different slightly different dungeons in like 3 tilesets.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:47
|
|
|
The thing about glowing arrows is that basically every game that has them and isn't a linear line has the option to turn them off. Including them hurts nobody. "But the level design" argument is meaningless because pretty much every game uses subtle guiding or color coding in addition to arrows. The arrows are pretty much never the only step. Complaining about including them comes off as "I don't want to have to turn an option off" more than anything else. If you don't like them turn them off. Making sure someone can finish a game without watching a YouTube video is in fact good game design. There are exceptions but those are almost always gamed where getting lost is the point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
Exploration also sucks because they rarely use landmarks or give any directions. The big example I remember is Bleak Falls Barrow. You see it when you leave Helgen, in a nice, scenic area, and your companion points it out. When you reach the merchant's shop and get the quest for the claw, they tell you to leave South of town, cross the bridge, and take the path into the mountain. It leads right to the barrow and you're golden. The sister will even show you the way to the bridge. This was good. It's the only time in the game it also works this way. They would have had to make the decision to base locations and events off of signposts or landmarks. And they couldn't feasibly have fully voice radiant quests to describe everything. They don't even tell you where to go most of the time, it's just "Bandits took my sword. Go get it." With 2000+ hours in the game, personally, I still need arrows or look through the clunky log to know at least where I'm going. The game is unplayable without them. And I've basically memorized the locations of a huge number of areas. That's not saying anything good about arrows, but entirely bad about the world design / quest interaction.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:49
|
|
|
Calaveron posted:God I can't imagine playing Skyrim without arrows and sparkly road spells. It's the drabbest, grayest, ugliest high profile game I've ever played and exploration in it was a pain in the rear end How would you know if you can't imagine doing it? Also lol at playing it for any other reason.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:49
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The thing about glowing arrows is that basically every game that has them and isn't a linear line has the option to turn them off. Including them hurts nobody. I think one of the main objections I see to this is that, in games with more open structures or just generally "open world" games, including a big guiding arrow is usually a substitute for that level design. If you turn it off, there is nothing to tell you where to go. Quest text doesn't help and neither does the world design. You either follow the arrow or you have no direction at all. That isn't always the case but it is very frequently the case. I think the fear some people are expressing in this thread is that encouraging the "just show me where to go with an arrow" approach would discourage designers to include other ways to find your way around. Personally I don't think the cause and effect flows in that direction, though. Games that are more linear experiences do frequently use level design to subtly guide the player, yeah, and including a "just show me where to go" arrow as an option would change nothing. That said I also agree with the general take that none of the PS1 FF games are "about" exploration or particularly reward is on its own merit so showing a destination on a map or something wouldn't really change a thing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:52
|
|
|
The Opera scene was mildly interesting, but it's pulled off really poorly. Having the one sabotaging the work be a nobody Octopus is just baffling. Were they incapable of crafting an appropriate villain? The whole sorta set up ends up being used again, and far more effectively with the opening of IX. A fact that keeps coming up with this game, it's got a lot of ideas that end up being pulled off better in following games. Setzer so far is a pretty nothing character, despite having a swag entrance. Pulling the whole Casablanca thing is just kinda meh. Seeing the Enemy territory was kind of interesting, harkens forward to the best parts of 7 where you're cruising around Shinra's towns and cities. Or to Galbaldia and the like. The Magitek facility itself is neat, took me a second to realize I could ride the rollers and hang off the Cranes. It also is exemplary of one of the biggest problems with the game, It's too drab. The colors are so muted, and the palette dark and dismal. Why not throw in some splashes of color? Add some orange and red emergency lights, or some big Yellow caution signs, something anything to make it less grey and brown.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
As an aside I do wish more games would include fun or flavorful ways to find your way around rather than just an arrow. I like how Ghost of Tsushima uses animals to guide you to specific things, for example. And the "party chat" thing I mentioned earlier is a great way to include a pseudo-quest log but with some extra personality. I could see a game where there's no in-game map or pathfinding by default but you have an experienced tracker as a party member and you can ask them for directions to get a general "go in this direction" arrow. Generally I think it's cool when pathfinding aids and fast travel are presented as in-game abilities sometimes. Doesn't always have to be that way but it's kinda neat when it is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I think one of the main objections I see to this is that, in games with more open structures or just generally "open world" games, including a big guiding arrow is usually a substitute for that level design. If you turn it off, there is nothing to tell you where to go. Quest text doesn't help and neither does the world design. You either follow the arrow or you have no direction at all. The thing is that I am hard pressed to think of modern games where that is the case. Pretty much any open world game is littered with landmarks and color coding. Several have Exploration modes specifically designed for it in fact. It feels like worrying about a solved problem
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:a nobody Octopus This is my thirteenth reason.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:01
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:The Opera scene was mildly interesting, but it's pulled off really poorly. Having the one sabotaging the work be a nobody Octopus is just baffling. Were they incapable of crafting an appropriate villain? The whole sorta set up ends up being used again, and far more effectively with the opening of IX. A fact that keeps coming up with this game, it's got a lot of ideas that end up being pulled off better in following games. Setzer so far is a pretty nothing character, despite having a swag entrance. Pulling the whole Casablanca thing is just kinda meh. Ultroos is a fan favorite on the level of Gilgamesh so you won't get a lot of agreement there. As far as colors: it is a 16 bit game. They have specific time sets they can use. The game is supposed to be mostly drab so the times it uses huge splashes of color stand out. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:02
|
|
|
Gotta agree that the research facility needed a facelift. It was ugly back then, and hard to see interactables due to all the brown.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
I agree that simply having a glowing arrow may take the fun of it, but occasionally being able to ask for a "hint" might be useful, especially if it's been a while since you've played.Harrow posted:A feature I think more RPGs should have is "party chat" where you can talk to your party members to get a hint about where to go or a reminder about what's just happened in the story. A quest log could do the same thing, sure, but I think it's just more fun/flavorful if, when you're lost, you're like "oh let me ask <party member> where to go" instead of just opening a map and following the arrow. Same for if you take a break from the game for a while and then come back and forget what you were up to. Do a lot of games do these kinds of skits? I know basically every Tales game does, but...
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:12
|
|
|
ff15 is technically open world but it still does not come close to focusing on 'exploration' in the way like an elder scrolls game does
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
Elephant Ambush posted:These types of things are in a lot of RPGs and I never understand why people get mad at them. They give you the ability to go explore the whole world and discover new things and so many people are like "but nobody told me where to go!" That's the point. You're not supposed to be told. You're intended to explore and talk to people and discover it on your own while also finding all kinds of cool stuff you couldn't get to before. I've seen similar complaints about FF6 and the World of Ruin. A game where NPCs in towns will point you in the direction of every single party member (except Gogo, though kid me figured that one out) and also says "hey you can go straight to Kefka's tower but you probably shouldn't without your friends or you'll get stomped." Most of the time the "I have no idea what to do next what the hell" complaints are due to just never talking to NPCs unless the game forces you to do so. dolphinbomb posted:Leviathan in FF4DS broke me of elixir syndrome. I was determined to kill him the moment the Feymarch became available and I was probably a good 10 or so levels below where I should've been at that point. I barely won by making Cecil chug elixirs to stay alive and chucking every single use battle item I could. I almost went and loaded my last save because 'what if I need those later in the game? You weren't too low of a level for Leviathan in 4DS, he's just one of the really badly balanced fights in that game (CPU was another). If you were a high enough level to have reflect on Rosa for beating Asura you were high enough for Leviathan. You just really needed to get a bunch of people to guard in the 0.1 seconds before that opening tidal wave and then get the team revived/cured and buffed before the next one. I think Slow worked on every single enemy in FF4DS as well. But really, the issue is just that FF4DS was a really badly tuned game with a bunch of questionable design decisions (NG+ with a finite number of repeats???). There are some people who claim FF4DS is a well made game and those people have every right to their opinion, no matter how wrong they are. DrPossum posted:My favorite rom patch is one that doubles the charge speed and it's a real game changer. I'm going to be upset if the pixel remaster doesn't improve this I'm going to be stunned if FF6 PR doesn't have you select the tech and then charge up afterwards since I'm pretty sure even the garbage mobile version of FF6 did exactly that. I think it's been available via romhacks for some time as well. If they make SwdTch charge on its own after you select the move and that charge time is properly affected by Cyan's speed state (and haste) he could go from laughable garbage-tier to a murder machine., until your Quick+Ultima/Merton casters are online. The real question is if they're going to "fix" the vanish + petrify/doom/x-zone 'bug' or leave it in.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:16
|
|
'
|
Small White Dragon posted:Do a lot of games do these kinds of skits? I know basically every Tales game does, but... It's not so much skits like Tales, but more a separate screen or something that appears in the menu that shows you what your characters are thinking or lets you ask them things. For example, Dragon Quest XI has a party chat feature where you can talk to any of your party members while you're out running around and they'll comment on recent events or remind you where you're heading next. Or the DS version of FFIV where opening the menu shows you whatever your party lead is thinking about right now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:17
|
|
|
"This game had a lot of ideas that were implemented better in games that didn't exist yet at the time" sure is a take lol
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:23
|
|
|
Elephant Ambush posted:"This game had a lot of ideas that were implemented better in games that didn't exist yet at the time" sure is a take I'm watching Casablanca right now and so much of what happens in this film is just so cliche!
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
It happens though. Just because Super Mario 64 was formative doesn't mean someone playing it for the first time this decade has to like it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:28
|
|
|
Alxprit posted:It happens though. Just because Super Mario 64 was formative doesn't mean someone playing it for the first time this decade has to like it. Yeah, Rayman 2 is better.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:28
|
|
|
Nope actually it's illegal not to like the games I like, better lawyer up
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
Alxprit posted:It happens though. Just because Super Mario 64 was formative doesn't mean someone playing it for the first time this decade has to like it. Find any thread on this forum where people are discussing video games and even vaguely hint that Quake isn't impressive when removed from the original context of its release, you'll get at least one person struggling to come to grips with the fact that they're 42 years old now
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
Small White Dragon posted:I agree that simply having a glowing arrow may take the fun of it, but occasionally being able to ask for a "hint" might be useful, especially if it's been a while since you've played. You may have been referencing this directly, but for those who don't know this is how the later Dragon Quest games and the remakes of the earlier ones started handling giving the player hints and additional direction for when it was necessary. There's a party chat feature that often adds a little bit of character and some hints on the next thing you need to do in the game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:35
|
|
|
As a constant FFV player it baffles me how many times the game relies on 'exploration' instead of actually telling you where to go. Sometimes it's as basic as 'head to the only town you're allowed to go to and talk to someone important' but other times you're just kind of supposed to wander around until you find something important. Like, you just got a boat. Where are you supposed to go? Somewhere you can only get to with a boat, of course, but there are a lot of those, and it's hard to tell if you really went to the wrong place unless you talk to literally every NPC. It's not great. Immediately after you head to the place you're supposed to go to, you have a new form of transportation and just kind of have to figure out it can only land in one kind of terrain and head towards a large amount of that terrain. It's not like a lack of explanation in regards of where to go to is new to games with wayfinders or trails to follow. And, hell, having replayed classic, WoW didn't always tell you where to go either before quest markers were added in.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:36
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:And, hell, having replayed classic, WoW didn't always tell you where to go either before quest markers were added in. Lest we forget, one of the most popular WoW addons for years - before it gained official implementation - was one that gave you curated quest markers and objective boundaries. Some people playing in vast, open worlds just wanna know where the next ride is, and that's fine.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:39
|
|
|
Vermain posted:Lest we forget, one of the most popular WoW addons for years - before it gained official implementation - was one that gave you curated quest markers and objective boundaries. Some people playing in vast, open worlds just wanna know where the next ride is, and that's fine. If this was capable of being added into FFXI back in the day it would have been done within minutes. Once the novelty of exploring the world wore off, the majority of people were just opening up allakhazam on another computer and following the directions, travel was already difficult enough without adding not-knowing-where-youre-going on top of it
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
drat I saw like 70 new posts and thought they posted a 6PR release date 
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
Snow Cone Capone posted:drat I saw like 70 new posts and thought they posted a 6PR release date They did! February 2022. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 23:06
|
|
|
dolphinbomb posted:Especially since if you want to minmax you'd be pumping his strength with esper bonuses and slapping an imp set and dragon horn on him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 23:08
|
|
|
Locke pulling a Karl Tanzler is pretty unexpected.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:00
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:As a constant FFV player it baffles me how many times the game relies on 'exploration' instead of actually telling you where to go. Sometimes it's as basic as 'head to the only town you're allowed to go to and talk to someone important' but other times you're just kind of supposed to wander around until you find something important. There's exactly three places you can go, each set up in a corner of the map to echo the plotline to that point centering around the fourth corner (and of finding something cool in the other corners if you already have), and the two of them which aren't on the critical path are by 2020s standards--I say 2020s rather than modern to avoid the implication that it's better--optional sidequests to kit out the jobs that were your DPS bread and butter in the prior two games respectively rather than wastes of time. You could cut things like this, where every option is good but one keeps you on the critical path, in favor of pulling the player straight through, and lose something in a game where the central interaction has multiple equally valid paths you're softly pushed toward based on what optional content you do, but as someone who brings up learned behavior in regard to the black chocobo (which is a pretty borderline assessment, given that it's introduced by rising from the terrain it's usable on and exists to return you to any prior point, many of which do have signposting, without letting you skip ahead) you should realize that the impulse to rush the critical path, or the realization that a critical path exists, is itself a learned behavior; the hypothetical naïf whose world is rocked by the idea that birds land in trees also isn't going to know or care that every path leads eventually to Exdeath, or even that there is an Exdeath, and is not going to be displeased that their choice that day only got them cool ninja gear or a rockin' summon--without the retrospective knowledge of where the game goes and how to finish a 4JF as quickly as possible in order to get with the other side of this year's split challenge, it's just as valid to assume that Jachol or Istory is necessary for the unknown next challenge.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:38
|
|
|
all roads lead to exdeath (you. i like you)
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:43
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:You could cut things like this, where every option is good but one keeps you on the critical path, in favor of pulling the player straight through, and lose something in a game where the central interaction has multiple equally valid paths you're softly pushed toward based on what optional content you do, but as someone who brings up learned behavior in regard to the black chocobo (which is a pretty borderline assessment, given that it's introduced by rising from the terrain it's usable on and exists to return you to any prior point, many of which do have signposting, without letting you skip ahead) you should realize that the impulse to rush the critical path, or the realization that a critical path exists, is itself a learned behavior; the hypothetical naïf whose world is rocked by the idea that birds land in trees also isn't going to know or care that every path leads eventually to Exdeath, or even that there is an Exdeath, and is not going to be displeased that their choice that day only got them cool ninja gear or a rockin' summon--without the retrospective knowledge of where the game goes and how to finish a 4JF as quickly as possible in order to get with the other side of this year's split challenge, it's just as valid to assume that Jachol or Istory is necessary for the unknown next challenge. this might legitimately be the longest run-on sentence I have ever read
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:43
|
|
|
This Witcher 3 game just isn't that great. They have some interesting ideas but they probably won't be implemented well until maybe Witcher 5 or even 6. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:54
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:There's exactly three places you can go, each set up in a corner of the map to echo the plotline to that point centering around the fourth corner (and of finding something cool in the other corners if you already have), and the two of them which aren't on the critical path are by 2020s standards--I say 2020s rather than modern to avoid the implication that it's better--optional sidequests to kit out the jobs that were your DPS bread and butter in the prior two games respectively rather than wastes of time. The only point of Jachol is a piano (and I suppose the first time you can get a ninja suit in a shop). Like I get your point (at least I think I do) but bard was not exactly your DPS bread and butter in the previous two games (especially considering you might not have even played either game, especially since III wasn't released in the west until after V, twice). Istory is more worthwhile, I agree, though again you get a bard song. Also you don't actually have a bard yet. That being said, not everyone would have noticed that there are exactly there places to go or that each one of them is in a different corner of the map. Giving someone a giant map and expecting them to know where they've already been, where they can now go to, and then doing it once again as soon as they find the 'critical path' as you put it is very annoying to deal with for someone who didn't already know where to go. And I know this because I was very frustrated on my first play through of FFV, long before I knew what a four job fiesta even was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 00:54
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Giving someone a giant map and expecting them to know where they've already been, where they can now go to, and then doing it once again as soon as they find the 'critical path' as you put it is very annoying to deal with for someone who didn't already know where to go. And I know this because I was very frustrated on my first play through of FFV, long before I knew what a four job fiesta even was. The other type of player is the one whose eyes light up at the prospect of being able to access all those water-locked dots on the map now!
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 01:06
|
|
|
Tonfa posted:The other type of player is the one whose eyes light up at the prospect of being able to access all those water-locked dots on the map now! There was an invisible monster that killed my whole party.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:33 |
|
|
If you can beat him, he should be 10 points worth of Esper learning and the highest amount at this point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 01:12
|
|