Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

road potato posted:

Do you think there's enough interest in discussing these kind of topics for there to be an urban design/housing/infrastructure thread? I've done some reading inspired by stuff discussed in this thread and I don't know if there's enough interest to make its own thread?

I think there is. Even mixed use zoning would be a major gain in cities.

Does anyone enjoy commuting?

(Ok, I like bicycle commuting � but that�s because it�s an excuse to get more cycling in)

# ? Jan 11, 2022 01:51

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 15:59

Shofixti: Nov 23, 2005; Kyaieee!

VideoGameVet posted:

I think there is. Even mixed use zoning would be a major gain in cities.

Does anyone enjoy commuting?

(Ok, I like bicycle commuting � but that�s because it�s an excuse to get more cycling in)

I�ve actually enjoyed reasonable distance walking or biking commutes - like 20 minutes or so. I find I benefit from a small stretch of time to mentally transition from work to home. Of course these are exactly the kind of commutes that mixed use enables. Long driving commutes or transit commutes with poor quality of service are hellish.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 17:53

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

VideoGameVet posted:

I think there is. Even mixed use zoning would be a major gain in cities.

Does anyone enjoy commuting?

(Ok, I like bicycle commuting � but that�s because it�s an excuse to get more cycling in)

I enjoy commuting, but my office is 30 miles or so from the house.

# ? Jan 13, 2022 18:13

Zeta Taskforce: Jun 27, 2002

Speaking about biking, there is a petition to end the sale of "Built to Fail" bikes

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart-major-bike-manufacturers-to-stop-making-and-selling-built-to-fail-bikes

quote:

Bisker says budget bikes violate three central principles for what makes bikes great: That they can be adjusted, overhauled, or have parts replaced whenever something isn�t working. �When those conditions are true,� Bisker said, �bikes are essentially immortal.� But on a budget bike, �You can often do none of those things. The parts are just too junky or malformed.�

For both Bisker and Liman, budget bikes present two profound problems. First, the people drawn to purchasing budget bikes are likely the ones who are priced out of higher quality bikes sold in bike shops (which typically avoid carrying budget bikes because local shops want to build lasting relationships with customers, not destroy them). While no one should be sold junk, budget bike customers are likely to be the ones who can least afford to buy a new bike every year or so.

The second problem is that bikes, especially in urban areas, are a key tool in the fight against climate change and a more sustainable future, but everything about budget bikes is wasteful. Liman said, �We need to stop mining these metals out of the ground, ship them around the globe, just to have them poorly constructed, sold in a big box store, and thrown in a landfill a few months later.�

The petition

# ? Jan 15, 2022 03:16

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Shofixti posted:

I�ve actually enjoyed reasonable distance walking or biking commutes - like 20 minutes or so. I find I benefit from a small stretch of time to mentally transition from work to home. Of course these are exactly the kind of commutes that mixed use enables. Long driving commutes or transit commutes with poor quality of service are hellish.

From 1996 to 1999 I had a 32mile round trip bike commute that had over 2000 ft. of climbing. Not only did I finally lose serious weight, I was happier than I had ever been.

I was fortunate:

1. The office had showers.
2. I was basically at a CxO level and had flexible hours. I'd arrive at 8:00am and leave before 5:00.
3. The commute was along the coast of San Diego (Cardiff to UTC). It doesn't get much better than that.

But if you look at Amsterdam and other high % of cycling commuting cities, one factor is that the commutes are short. The other is that you have decent infrastructure and auto drivers who are more cautious around cyclists (yes, I have biked there).

# ? Jan 15, 2022 20:46

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Zeta Taskforce posted:

Speaking about biking, there is a petition to end the sale of "Built to Fail" bikes

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdgq9/mechanics-ask-walmart-major-bike-manufacturers-to-stop-making-and-selling-built-to-fail-bikes

The petition

<old-guy>

Back in the day you could buy heavy but affordable bikes that could be serviced. The Schwinn Varsity comes to mind.

My wife was going to school in SF in the 1970's and still remembers lugging her Schwinn up stairs etc. That bike was more than 1/3 her weight :-)

I worked at a bike shop back then and bikes like the Peugeot UO8 were decent.

</old-guy>

FYI the bike shop I worked at during High School is still in business. Brands Bicycles in Wantagh, NY.

VideoGameVet fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jan 15, 2022

# ? Jan 15, 2022 20:50

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Everything going well I hope?

# ? Jan 16, 2022 03:43

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

VideoGameVet posted:

Back in the day you could buy heavy but affordable bikes that could be serviced. The Schwinn Varsity comes to mind.

best thing i did last year was, i ended up buying a cargo bike. i've been surfing the web for a decent e-bike so i could use it for commutes in summer without sweating like a horse when i arrive, and i couldn't find anything good+affordable until i finally figured i might as well look at utility bikes, since i don't have a car anyway

it's kinda heavy, but it's super rugged, has fat tires so i can comfortably navigate any bike-hostile town areas (which is still most of them) and is easy to fix when something does go wrong. pedal assist gives me like 100-140km range despite riding in hilly areas, so the heavy bit doesn't even matter, it's really the best bike i'll ever have lmao

the biggest kicker is, despite being a capable e-bike, it was only 1600e+50e shipping. anything even remotely similar tends to run over 3000 here, and you get just the fuckin bike, i can easily load ~50kg on mine, and use it for everything now.

# ? Jan 16, 2022 04:22

road potato: Dec 19, 2005; Can't post for 32 hours!

I was in Ann Arbor for 5 weeks of classes last summer. During the year I have a ~30 minute drive commute that's almost all freeways. It was absolutely amazing to be able to ride a bike all summer to get to nearly everything I needed without a car. College town density, people used to having bikes around, bike lanes and protected bike paths. It was such a great contrast to Dubai driving 5 days a week. I also had friends who could help me with a ride when I needed it, so I had a very good scenario.

I really, really like the Not Just Bikes youtube channel if you are interested in this. It seems like starting its own thread is not a great plan, so we can just have it sit here in the climate change thread for now. He describes a lot on zoning issues in the US and has a bunch of videos showing how it is done better in other places.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

There's one video somewhere about the trash 15 minute walk he took in Houston that inspired him to start the channel.. maybe I'll dig it up later.

road potato fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jan 16, 2022

# ? Jan 16, 2022 14:20

Zeta Taskforce: Jun 27, 2002

road potato posted:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

That's a great channel. It almost doubles as promotional info put out by the Netherlands Chamber of Commerce, which BTW I am cool with.

# ? Jan 16, 2022 17:43

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Truga posted:

best thing i did last year was, i ended up buying a cargo bike. i've been surfing the web for a decent e-bike so i could use it for commutes in summer without sweating like a horse when i arrive, and i couldn't find anything good+affordable until i finally figured i might as well look at utility bikes, since i don't have a car anyway

it's kinda heavy, but it's super rugged, has fat tires so i can comfortably navigate any bike-hostile town areas (which is still most of them) and is easy to fix when something does go wrong. pedal assist gives me like 100-140km range despite riding in hilly areas, so the heavy bit doesn't even matter, it's really the best bike i'll ever have lmao

the biggest kicker is, despite being a capable e-bike, it was only 1600e+50e shipping. anything even remotely similar tends to run over 3000 here, and you get just the fuckin bike, i can easily load ~50kg on mine, and use it for everything now.

I see a huge number of the Rad Powerbikes in the cargo config.. with 2 or 3 teens on them AND parents using them to get their younger children to/from schools.

It's amazing and it's great.

# ? Jan 16, 2022 20:58

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

road potato posted:

I was in Ann Arbor for 5 weeks of classes last summer. During the year I have a ~30 minute drive commute that's almost all freeways. It was absolutely amazing to be able to ride a bike all summer to get to nearly everything I needed without a car. College town density, people used to having bikes around, bike lanes and protected bike paths. It was such a great contrast to Dubai driving 5 days a week. I also had friends who could help me with a ride when I needed it, so I had a very good scenario.

I really, really like the Not Just Bikes youtube channel if you are interested in this. It seems like starting its own thread is not a great plan, so we can just have it sit here in the climate change thread for now. He describes a lot on zoning issues in the US and has a bunch of videos showing how it is done better in other places.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

There's one video somewhere about the trash 15 minute walk he took in Houston that inspired him to start the channel.. maybe I'll dig it up later.

I love Amsterdam and would take advantage of the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty if not for a wife who simply cannot deal with cold weather.

Yes, I've biked there:

I am very pessimistic about the 2022 and 2024 elections, hence my desire to have an exit plan.

# ? Jan 16, 2022 21:03

Minenfeld!: Aug 21, 2012

My exit plan was my ability to receive UK citizenship (or Scottish should that happen) but that's uh...not looking like a great exit plan.

# ? Jan 17, 2022 00:27

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

They executed their exit plan before you did yours!

# ? Jan 17, 2022 00:50

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/feb/01/extreme-heat-oceans-passed-point-of-no-return-high-temperatures-wildlife-seas

quote:

Extreme heat in oceans �passed point of no return� in 2014

Formerly rare high temperatures now covering half of seas and devastating wildlife, study shows

---

Extreme heat in the world�s oceans passed the �point of no return� in 2014 and has become the new normal, according to research.

Scientists analysed sea surface temperatures over the last 150 years, which have risen because of global heating. They found that extreme temperatures occurring just 2% of the time a century ago have occurred at least 50% of the time across the global ocean since 2014.

In some hotspots, extreme temperatures occur 90% of the time, severely affecting wildlife. More than 90% of the heat trapped by greenhouse gases is absorbed by the ocean, which plays a critical role in maintaining a stable climate.

�By using this measure of extremes, we�ve shown that climate change is not something that is uncertain and may happen in the distant future � it�s something that is a historical fact and has occurred already,� said Kyle Van Houtan, at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, US, and one of the research team. �Extreme climate change is here, it�s in the ocean, and the ocean underpins all life on Earth.�

Van Houtan and his colleague Kisei Tanaka are ecologists and began the study because they wanted to assess how heat extremes were related to the loss of kelp forests off the coast of California.

�Ecology teaches us that extremes have an outsized impact on ecosystems,� Van Houtan said. �We are trying to understand the dramatic changes that we�ve seen along our coasts and in the ocean, on coral reefs, kelp, white sharks, sea otters, fish, and more.�

Other scientists reported in 2019 that the number of heatwaves affecting the planet�s oceans had increased sharply, killing swathes of sea life like �wildfires that take out huge areas of forest�.

Van Houtan and Tanaka found no measure of extreme heat existed and so extended their work globally. The study, published in the Plos Climate journal, examined the monthly temperature in each one-degree-by-one-degree part of the ocean and set the highest temperature in the 50-year period as the benchmark for extreme heat.

The scientists then examined temperature records from 1920 to 2019, the most recent year available. They found that by 2014, more than 50% of the monthly records across the entire ocean had surpassed the once-in-50�years extreme heat benchmark. The researchers called the year when the percentage passed 50% and did not fall back below it in subsequent years the �point of no return�.

By 2019, the proportion of the global ocean suffering extreme heat was 57%. �We expect this to keep on going up,� said Van Houtan. But the extreme heat was particularly severe in some parts of the ocean, with the South Atlantic having passed the point of no return in 1998. �That was 24 years ago � that is astounding,� he said.

The proportion of the ocean experiencing extreme heat in some large ecosystems is now 80%-90%, with the five worst affected including areas off the north-east coasts of the US and Canada, off Somalia and Indonesia, and in the Norwegian Sea.

�You should care about turtles, seabirds and whales, but even if you don�t, the two most lucrative fisheries in the US, lobster and scallops, are in those exact spots,� said Van Houtan, while 14 fisheries in Alaska have recently been declared federal disasters.

The heat content of the top 2,000 metres of the ocean set a new record in 2021, the sixth in a row. Prof John Abraham at the University of St Thomas in Minnesota, one of the team behind the assessment, said ocean heat content was the most relevant to global climate, while surface temperatures were most relevant to weather patterns, as well as many ecosystems.

�Oceans are critical to understanding climate change. They cover about 70% of the planet�s surface and absorb more than 90% of global warming heat,� Abraham said. �The new study is helpful because the researchers look at the surface temperatures. It finds there has been a big increase in extreme heat at the ocean�s surface and that the extremes are increasing over time.�

Just a catastrophe of unimaginable scale unfolding before our very eyes, and we still have people (here in this thread, and elsewhere) who are desperately trying to find silver linings or claiming humanity will find a solution to all this, or that things won't actually get that bad.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/brv.12816

The Sixth Mass Extinction: fact, fiction or speculation?

quote:

X. CONCLUSIONS

The Sixth Mass Extinction of Earth's biodiversity, distinct from previous such events because it is caused by human activities, has been acknowledged by many for at least 30 years. We define this crisis for biodiversity as including all anthropogenic extinctions since modern humans expanded out of Africa between 200,000 and 45,000 years ago, although extinction rates are now much greater than they were at the start. Yet some deny that there is a crisis, based on two primary critiques: (i) the claim that estimated extinction rates have been exaggerated and that the current extinction rate is not significantly greater than the natural background rate, and (ii) that because humans are part of the natural world, human-caused extinctions are a natural phenomenon, a part of the evolutionary trajectory of life on Earth.

We counter these arguments by showing that current extinction rates, notably in terrestrial invertebrates, are far higher than background extinction rates. We also show that use of IUCN Red List extinction data to determine current extinction rates inevitably leads to dramatic under-estimation of rates, except for birds, mammals and perhaps amphibians. Red List data have been used inappropriately by some to deny that there is a crisis. And as humanity has the power of choice, we further argue that a laissez-faire attitude to the current extinction crisis is morally wrong.

We review alternative approaches for assessing extinctions, focusing on the need to address invertebrates, and argue that molluscs have significant advantages among invertebrates because of their shells, which remain after death as a permanent record, while most other invertebrates vanish without trace and would therefore never be known had they not been collected prior to going extinct. (We note, however, the not-insignificant body of work on fossil insects.) We review our own studies of extinction in molluscs and by logical extrapolation conclude that 7.5�13% (150,000-260,000) of all ~2 million known species may already have gone extinct since around 1500. This is orders of magnitude greater than the 882 (0.04%) listed as extinct by IUCN (2020).

We briefly discuss the marine realm and conclude that many marine species face significant threats, which continue to increase, but we also conclude that there have been relatively few extinctions and that there is no evidence that the Sixth Mass Extinction has already involved the marine biota. Plants, however, face many of the threats faced by terrestrial animals and suffer from similar conservation biases as do invertebrates, although there are hints that they may have suffered lower rates of extinction.

The prognosis for the survival of a large proportion of extant species is not good. Our review lays out arguments clearly demonstrating that there is a biodiversity crisis, quite probably the start of the Sixth Mass Extinction. Dedicated conservation biologists and conservation agencies are doing what they can, focused mainly on threatened birds and mammals, among which some species may be saved from the extinction that would otherwise ensue. But we are pessimistic about the fate of most of the Earth's biodiversity, much of which is going to vanish without us ever knowing of its existence. Denying the crisis, accepting it and doing nothing about it, or embracing it and manipulating it for the fickle benefit of people, defined no doubt by politicians and business interests, is an abrogation of moral responsibility.

# ? Feb 2, 2022 07:13

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00312-2

quote:

Scientists raise alarm over �dangerously fast� growth in atmospheric methane
As global methane concentrations soar over 1,900 parts per billion, some researchers fear that global warming itself is behind the rapid rise.

---

Methane concentrations in the atmosphere raced past 1,900 parts per billion last year, nearly triple preindustrial levels, according to data released in January by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). Scientists says the grim milestone underscores the importance of a pledge made at last year�s COP26 climate summit to curb emissions of methane, a greenhouse gas at least 28 times as potent as CO2.

The growth of methane emissions slowed around the turn of the millennium, but began a rapid and mysterious uptick around 2007. The spike has caused many researchers to worry that global warming is creating a feedback mechanism that will cause ever more methane to be released, making it even harder to rein in rising temperatures.

�Methane levels are growing dangerously fast,� says Euan Nisbet, an Earth scientist at Royal Holloway, University of London, in Egham, UK. The emissions, which seem to have accelerated in the past few years, are a major threat to the world�s goal of limiting global warming to 1.5�2 �C over pre-industrial temperatures, he says.

Enigmatic patterns

For more than a decade, researchers have deployed aircraft, taken satellite measurements and run models in an effort to understand the drivers of the increase (see �A worrying trend�)1,2. Potential explanations range from the expanding exploitation of oil and natural gas and rising emissions from landfill to growing livestock herds and increasing activity by microbes in wetlands3.

�The causes of the methane trends have indeed proved rather enigmatic,� says Alex Turner, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Washington in Seattle. And despite a flurry of research, Turner says he is yet to see any conclusive answers emerge.

One clue is in the isotopic signature of methane molecules. The majority of carbon is carbon-12, but methane molecules sometimes also contain the heavier isotope carbon-13. Methane generated by microbes � after they consume carbon in the mud of a wetland or in the gut of a cow, for instance � contains less 13C than does methane generated by heat and pressure inside Earth, which is released during fossil-fuel extraction.

Scientists have sought to understand the source of the mystery methane by comparing this knowledge about the production of the gas with what is observed in the atmosphere.

By studying methane trapped decades or centuries ago in ice cores and accumulated snow, as well as gas in the atmosphere, they have been able to show that for two centuries after the start of the Industrial Revolution the proportion of methane containing 13C increased4. But since 2007, when methane levels began to rise more rapidly again, the proportion of methane containing 13C began to fall (see �The rise and fall of methane�). Some researchers believe that this suggests that much of the increase in the past 15 years might be due to microbial sources, rather than the extraction of fossil fuels.

[...]

Man, I could have sworn that some posters in this thread repeatedly argued that various climate forecast models do in fact take into account feedback mechanisms, and yet these scientists (who probably don't know what they are talking about) seem utterly confused by where all this methane is coming from.

# ? Feb 8, 2022 21:58

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Please quote someone. I have no idea what you just argued for or against. your strawman is not clear.

# ? Feb 8, 2022 22:22

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

I see 3 suspects for the Methane.

1. Leaks from Fracking.
2.Permafrost melt.
3. Methane Hydrides (sp) being released.

# ? Feb 8, 2022 23:43

Fame Douglas: Nov 20, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Harold Fjord posted:

Please quote someone. I have no idea what you just argued for or against. your strawman is not clear.

Some poster recently claimed that feedback mechanisms don't exist, even.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 01:11

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Been a buncha stuff about the fracking leaks being bigger than previously thought.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 01:38

Zeta Taskforce: Jun 27, 2002

The average methane molecule stays in the atmosphere for a much shorter time than CO2, about 9 years vs 100 years for CO2. That means that measured levels will react to changes in the rate of emissions faster than other atmospheric gasses.

My guess is that the increase up to 1999 would have been from increases in beef production, rice production, more landfills and economic growth in general. After 1999 its not like methane emissions slowed down but because it does degrade relatively quickly the rate it was being removed finally caught up to the rate that it was being emitted. i.e, compared to preindustrial times, emissions were higher but so was removal, with the higher rates of removal being a function of the higher concentrations. A new equilibrium was reached. It was the late 2000's that fracking really took off, so we blasted through that early 2000's equilibrium.

At least that's my theory.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 03:48

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Zeta Taskforce posted:

The average methane molecule stays in the atmosphere for a much shorter time than CO2, about 9 years vs 100 years for CO2. That means that measured levels will react to changes in the rate of emissions faster than other atmospheric gasses.

My guess is that the increase up to 1999 would have been from increases in beef production, rice production, more landfills and economic growth in general. After 1999 its not like methane emissions slowed down but because it does degrade relatively quickly the rate it was being removed finally caught up to the rate that it was being emitted. i.e, compared to preindustrial times, emissions were higher but so was removal, with the higher rates of removal being a function of the higher concentrations. A new equilibrium was reached. It was the late 2000's that fracking really took off, so we blasted through that early 2000's equilibrium.

At least that's my theory.

On that Beef note: For the first time in its 13-year history, New York�s Climate Week is finally talking about food.

https://vegnews.com/2021/9/new-york-climate-conference-animal-agriculture

Climate Week is returning to New York City for the 13th year September 20 to 26, and this year�s agenda will place a brighter spotlight on animal agriculture�for good reason. �The global food system currently contributes 21 to 37 percent of total greenhouse gas emissions, and global emissions from the food sector are expected to continue rising as more people are lifted out of poverty and the population grows,� says Tim Ash Vie, director of the Under2 Coalition Secretariat at the Climate Group, which is hosting the event.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 16:18

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

VideoGameVet posted:

I see 3 suspects for the Methane.

1. Leaks from Fracking.
2.Permafrost melt.
3. Methane Hydrides (sp) being released.

There's also a lot of leaks just from normally operating Natural Gas distribution systems.

Including leaks from households as studies are showing things like gas stoves and gas furnaces leak fairly significant amounts of methane even when off.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/27/1075874473/gas-stoves-climate-change-leak-methane

# ? Feb 9, 2022 16:24

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

CommieGIR posted:

There's also a lot of leaks just from normally operating Natural Gas distribution systems.

Including leaks from households as studies are showing things like gas stoves and gas furnaces leak fairly significant amounts of methane even when off.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/27/1075874473/gas-stoves-climate-change-leak-methane

Yep. And it's not good for people to be breathing in that stuff.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 16:33

Freezer: Apr 20, 2001; The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.

Just as with cars, electrifying new building stoves (to induction) and water/air heaters (to heat pumps) should be official policy and heavily subsidized.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 16:45

KozmoNaut: Apr 23, 2008; Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle

CommieGIR posted:

There's also a lot of leaks just from normally operating Natural Gas distribution systems.

Including leaks from households as studies are showing things like gas stoves and gas furnaces leak fairly significant amounts of methane even when off.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/27/1075874473/gas-stoves-climate-change-leak-methane

Research partly sponsored by an electric power distribution lobbying group.

If my gas stove leaked significant amounts of anything while off, my kitchen would stink, due to the mercaptan etc that is added for precisely that reason.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 17:15

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

KozmoNaut posted:

Research partly sponsored by an electric power distribution lobbying group.

If my gas stove leaked significant amounts of anything while off, my kitchen would stink, due to the mercaptan etc that is added for precisely that reason.

There's other papers about it, from Stanford: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

But regardless, Natural Gas is a problem, not a solution.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 17:17

KozmoNaut: Apr 23, 2008; Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle

Sure, it's a fossil fuel that is -- at best -- a transitional energy source on the way to abolishing fossil fuels entirely.

But I've never experienced a gas stove that leaked when turned off. I've only had gas stove tops, never gas ovens, maybe there's a difference there.

And I would choose induction or even standard glass ceramic in any new installation.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 17:23

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

There is a lower end of propane appliances and furnaces used in mobile homes. Some of those get leaky enough to cause fires when they are old.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 17:31

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

KozmoNaut posted:

But I've never experienced a gas stove that leaked when turned off. I've only had gas stove tops, never gas ovens, maybe there's a difference there.

The research indicates that all gas stoves have microleaks, though some are worse than others. They just are leaking at levels that are often below the detectability of a human nose. Studies suggest that 75% of gas stove emissions occur while the device is turned off, due to slow but constant release of methane.

quote:

Cumulative Methane Emissions

For our methane emission measurements, we scaled our measurements to calculate the total amount of methane emitted from stoves overall, employing the usage patterns reported by Chan et al. and Zhao et al. (18,28) (see the Materials and Methods section). We estimated that an average stove (burners plus oven) emitted 649 [95% CI: 427, 949] g CH4 year�1 (Figure S5). When scaled to total U.S. emissions, and taking into account uncertainty in the estimate of the number of appliances reported in RECS, we estimated total national methane emissions from stoves were 28.1 [18.5, 41.2] Gg CH4 year�1. Using a 20 year timescale for the lifetime of methane, these methane emissions were comparable in climate impact to the carbon dioxide emissions of approximately 500 000 gas-powered cars. (31)

Similar to our previous measurements in homes and to the results of other researchers, (7,8,27) our results were long-tail skewed. Considering our expanded dataset, a plot of the cumulative count of measurements vs fraction of emissions showed that the top 10% of all observations in the expanded dataset were responsible for emitting 47% of total emissions (Figure S6). These data approached the �5/50 rule� where the top 5% of emitters typically emit 50% of all emissions. (32)

We also calculated the total emissions based on whether the stove was on or off. Including both emission and usage data, we estimated that total emissions were 21.2 [13.3, 30.8] Gg CH4 year�1 during steady-state-off (i.e., emissions over most of the day); 2.7 [1.3, 5.3] Gg CH4 year�1 during steady-state-on from cooktops alone; and 1.1 [0.7, 1.9] Gg CH4 year�1 from the on/off pulses. For ovens alone, we only used emission data from the bake burner because we lacked comprehensive broil burner usage information but suspect it is small (∼10%) based on user-reported datasets. Overall, we estimated that ovens emitted 3.1 [0.8, 8.1] Gg CH4 year�1 while on (Figure 5).

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

And that's just considering the gas that actually makes into the appliance - there are undetected methane leaks all over the piping infrastructure, and even the ones that are detected typically aren't fixed unless they are within five feet of an enclosure.

The Atlantic posted:

I was required to document all the leaks that I found, but the gas company only immediately fixed those leaks that were within five feet of an enclosure. Finding such �class 1s,� as they are known in industry parlance, initially gave me a little rush of excitement, followed by some vaguely defined sense of occupational satisfaction. �Hell, I may have even saved a life today,� I�d think to myself in early moments of na�ve self-congratulation.

But over time, I learned a surprising truth: The bulk of the gas leaks identified are left leaking. Those between five to 15 feet from a house or structure would receive a check-up after six months. Leaks more than 15 feet from a building were noted but required no special attention. Many of the leaks persisted for years and even decades. My boss, a man of great professional dedication, was so familiar with the leaks on his turf that he kept their dates and locations locked in his memory. He could point to a circular burn in a nondescript suburban lawn as we drove past and say, �There�s another. I found that one 10 years ago.�

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/gas-leaks-are-everywhere/405820/

Like many fossil fuel-related issues, The EPA is basically not allowed to study or regulate the industry. Outside research indicates that there is widespread leakage in the local distribution grid to the order of 690 Gg/year (the equivalent of 12.5 million vehicles) https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437. And all that is only in one nation, and without factoring in the widespread leaks and inefficiencies within the global distribution system as gas is harvested and shipped all around the world.

Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Feb 9, 2022

# ? Feb 9, 2022 17:56

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

CommieGIR posted:

There's also a lot of leaks just from normally operating Natural Gas distribution systems.

Including leaks from households as studies are showing things like gas stoves and gas furnaces leak fairly significant amounts of methane even when off.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/27/1075874473/gas-stoves-climate-change-leak-methane

Leakage from stoves is miniscule. A much bigger issue is leakage from pipelines:

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/03/1077392791/a-satellite-finds-massive-methane-leaks-from-gas-pipelines

quote:

A satellite finds massive methane leaks from gas pipelines

There's new evidence, collected from orbiting satellites, that oil and gas companies are routinely venting huge amounts of methane into the air.

Methane is the main ingredient in natural gas, the fuel. It's also a powerful greenhouse gas, second only to carbon dioxide in its warming impact. And Thomas Lauvaux, a researcher with the Laboratory of Climate and Environmental Sciences in France, says there's been a persistent discrepancy between official estimates of methane emissions and field observations.

"For years, every time we had data [on methane emissions] � we were flying over an area, we were driving around � we always found more emissions than we were supposed to see," he says.

Researchers turned to satellites in an effort to get more clarity. The European Space Agency launched an instrument three years ago called the TROPOspheric Monitoring Instrument (TROPOMI) that can measure the methane in any 12-square-mile block of the atmosphere, day by day.

Lauvaux says that TROPOMI detected methane releases that the official estimates did not foresee. "No one expects that pipelines are sometimes wide open, pouring gas into the atmosphere," he says.

Yet they were. Over the course of two years, during 2019 and 2020, the researchers counted more than 1,800 large bursts of methane, often releasing several tons of methane per hour. Lauvaux and his colleagues published their findings this week in the journal Science.

The researchers consulted with gas companies, trying to understand the source of these "ultra-emitting events." They found that some releases resulted from accidents. More often, though, they were deliberate. Gas companies simply vented gas from pipelines or other equipment before carrying out repairs or maintenance operations.

[...]

# ? Feb 9, 2022 18:41

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

I think that the ultimate takeaway is that gas leaks like crazy at every stage of its production lifecycle. It leaks massively during extraction, it leaks hugely during transportation (both from pipelines and cargo ships), it leaks constantly from local distribution infrastructure, and it leaks significantly from appliances inside homes. They cause different threats in different ways - the gigantic leaks cause global problems, while the smaller leaks create regional and individual health risks. US gas appliances might "only" leak methane equivalent to 500,000 cars, but their impact on indoor air quality is significant and underappreciated in terms of public health. I think that future generations will look back at gas stoves the same way we do about lead pipes.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 21:16

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Bar Ran Dun posted:

There is a lower end of propane appliances and furnaces used in mobile homes. Some of those get leaky enough to cause fires when they are old.

I�m planning of going mobile in a few years. Use an electric van and just all electric appliances (induction stove, heat pump) because propane is no fun to deal with.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 21:19

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Kaal posted:

I think that the ultimate takeaway is that gas leaks like crazy at every stage of its production lifecycle.

My ultimate takeaway is that we're completely hosed, and I've become a single-issue voter.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 21:27

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

VideoGameVet posted:

I�m planning of going mobile in a few years. Use an electric van and just all electric appliances (induction stove, heat pump) because propane is no fun to deal with.

You are going to need a LOT of batteries.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 21:36

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

CommieGIR posted:

You are going to need a LOT of batteries.

According to this website, it seems like something that's fairly feasible. They recommended 200 AH of batteries, a 2000 Watts power inverter, and 400 Watts of Solar Panels to run an induction cooktop. It's about $800 worth of equipment, plus the cooktop.

https://www.thewaywardhome.com/induction-cooktop-for-a-van/

# ? Feb 9, 2022 21:42

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Yeah it's not all that much, I ran some numbers when thinking about makig a hobo camper out of my Fit. Gas would be terrible since it's not even a van. An induction cooker is like 2kw so you could run it for half an hour at full blast from a 1kwh battery (~$140 bucks I think?). I'm not much of a camper but I assume people won't be making beef stews there anyway so it's not too bad unless you won't be able to charge for weeks.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 22:12

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Kaal posted:

According to this website, it seems like something that's fairly feasible. They recommended 200 AH of batteries, a 2000 Watts power inverter, and 400 Watts of Solar Panels to run an induction cooktop. It's about $800 worth of equipment, plus the cooktop.

https://www.thewaywardhome.com/induction-cooktop-for-a-van/

It really seems like this is more trouble than its worth, especially in the winter. We are talking about some fairly low carbon emissions. Propane camping stoves work really well, they seem pretty easy to deal with to me. Personally, I prefer kerosene, but propane is pretty hard to gently caress up.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 22:19

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

CommieGIR posted:

You are going to need a LOT of batteries.

There�s a few large EV Vans now. Ford Transit EV, Mercedes Sprinter EV � but what I really want is the Rivian vans they are selling to Amazon and now commercial.

Yeah, they have lots of batteries.

I thought about doing a electric pickup but you lose a lot of range with a trailer.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 22:39

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 15:59

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

cat botherer posted:

It really seems like this is more trouble than its worth, especially in the winter. We are talking about some fairly low carbon emissions. Propane camping stoves work really well, they seem pretty easy to deal with to me. Personally, I prefer kerosene, but propane is pretty hard to gently caress up.

I think one of my key points is to have the van running on electric. I current have a Kia electric car and I don�t even want a gas vehicle now. It�s so good.

BUT I use my bicycle more for more hours than the Kia.

# ? Feb 9, 2022 22:41

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