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Conspiratiorist posted:I think it's starting. Self-propelled howitzers sneaking through the town at night is definitely foreboding.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:43
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Fritz the Horse posted:fwiw this video also explicitly points out that it's untrue and Russian propaganda to claim that Ukraine is "governed by Nazis" or full of Nazis. I'm not saying you made that claim, the video does indeed talk about the growing far-right in Ukraine (supported by the US) and how many affiliated people are gaining positions of power as your post states. It's also posted by an organization that doesn't know WTF Wagner is, and thus clearly fails the test of being posted by someone with half a clue.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:43
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Self-propelled howitzers sneaking through the town at night is definitely foreboding. a town in donetsk, in particular
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Feb 19, 2022 22:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:a town in donetsk, in particular It’s the town of Donetsk, if we are being especially particular. It says it right there on the tweet.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:48
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Fritz the Horse posted:fwiw this video also explicitly points out that it's untrue and Russian propaganda to claim that Ukraine is "governed by Nazis" or full of Nazis. I'm not saying you made that claim, the video does indeed talk about the growing far-right in Ukraine (supported by the US) and how many affiliated people are gaining positions of power as your post states. I mean Ukraine was in fact partially governed by Nazis. As you yourself state they held key posts in the Ukrainian government. The Svoboda party literally used call itself the social nationalists so pretty much a direct homage to the Nazi party. Can’t say how much power they hold in the current government though. And its true that not all Ukrainian are Nazis but thats kind of obvious I think.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:48
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If you want to share youtube videos, then I'd say that Adam Something gives a good eastern european perspective to the conflict in a video form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OO3RiNMDB8
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Feb 19, 2022 22:51
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thats not rly unique to Ukraine tho
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Feb 19, 2022 22:52
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Warbadger posted:I doubt they're really going to be annoyed at Russia, hence the vague platitudes and otherwise lack of action/involvement. They don't care. Hell, if Russia invades China loses nothing but it means there's decent odds Russia ends up more economically reliant on China and Ukraine gets to buy more stuff to rebuild. Eh, I think Xi and China's geopolitical decision makers are mildly annoyed; China does want to be seen as respectable; and what Russia is doing is an unconsciousable embarassment and being seen placed in the same box together would certain ruffle their feathers; and I think China does care in the abstract; they certainly don't want Russia getting any funny ideas about formenting unrest in their own border regions. China has got to be frowning intensely and considering whether this strengthens or weakens the US's hegemony and if there's any chance the US comes out of this stronger for it then China is certainly is going to be miffed. Red and Black posted:I mean Ukraine was in fact partially governed by Nazis. As you yourself state they held key posts in the Ukrainian government. The Svoboda party literally used call itself the social nationalists so pretty much a direct homage to the Nazi party. Can’t say how much power they hold in the current government though. And its true that not all Ukrainian are Nazis but thats kind of obvious I think. I feel partially governed implies like, several key posts in the cabinet; or a power sharing agreement. What posts do these far right figures hold in the government? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 22:52
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^^^^ Presently, none. They held some in a short-lived transitional government in 2014 that only held power for about 9 months or so until elections were held. Red and Black posted:I mean Ukraine was in fact partially governed by Nazis. As you yourself state they held key posts in the Ukrainian government. The Svoboda party literally used call itself the social nationalists so pretty much a direct homage to the Nazi party. Can’t say how much power they hold in the current government though. And its true that not all Ukrainian are Nazis but thats kind of obvious I think. If you can't, why are you commenting? They have a single seat FPTP seat, and are not part of the government. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 22:53
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Weyd posted:If you want to share youtube videos, then I'd say that Adam Something gives a good eastern european perspective to the conflict in a video form. lol, in this video he explicitly states that the American empire is better because it only uses “soft power” (someone should tell the Iraqis) and it doesn’t annex territory (someone should tell Mexico, Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc) At least he’s right in saying Russia probably wont invade
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Feb 19, 2022 22:54
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OddObserver posted:Russian artillery murders two Ukrainians just today, is staging a whole bunch of nonsense try to try to fire up the public. This is from a bit earlier (I'm going through reports and whoa boy) but please engage with what people itt are actually posting and avoid strawmanning or appealing to what vague groups ("tankies" etc) might think. This goes for the thread in general, thanks.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:55
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OddObserver posted:If you can't, why are you commenting? They have a single seat FPTP seat, and are not part of the government. Yeah but they were in 2014 and look at all the damage they did. They’re basically responsible for the civil war
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Feb 19, 2022 22:55
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Self-propelled howitzers sneaking through the town at night is definitely foreboding. The howitzers just had one too many shots of vodka and are now trying to get back home without making too much fuss, I don't know what isn't clear about this 
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Feb 19, 2022 22:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:Eh, I think Xi and China's geopolitical decision makers are mildly annoyed; China does want to be seen as respectable; and what Russia is doing is an unconsciousable embarassment and being seen placed in the same box together would certain ruffle their feathers; and I think China does care in the abstract; they certainly don't want Russia getting any funny ideas about formenting unrest in their own border regions. China has got to be frowning intensely and considering whether this strengthens or weakens the US's hegemony and if there's any chance the US comes out of this stronger for it then China is certainly is going to be miffed. It also makes China's own territorial aggression (Taiwan, South China Sea, etc) look even worse (by association) so there's plenty of reason for them to be, at the very least, quite miffed.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:56
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Red and Black posted:Yeah but they were in 2014 and look at all the damage they did. They’re basically responsible for the civil war Nazis are pro EU/NATO while also sniping protesters at Maidan?
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Feb 19, 2022 22:57
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Rodiel posted:its not as big a deal as it was 50 years ago, it was a technical thing then. But it should still be a big political thing no matter whos involved. i dont want nukes on the border of my country and i dont blame russia for felling the same! Being worried about hostile guns and nukes on their border is exactly why the whole of Central and European Europe raced to join the NATO as soon as possible, and very obviously for a good reason. The same can't be said about the supposed invisible threats posed to Russia.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:57
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KillHour posted:I have no idea if Russia is going to invade but if they do I'm going to buy everyone who said they definitely won't a red title and if they don't I'm going to do the same to everyone who said they definitely will even though I honestly can't think of nearly as many of the latter You'll have to autoban to fulfill this clause as we have no way of investigating who bought an avatar for someone. Personally I would suggest that if you've already earmarked that money you instead donate to a charity or buy yourself a nice meal with enough to spare for a generous tip
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Feb 19, 2022 22:58
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Epic High Five posted:You'll have to autoban to fulfill this clause as we have no way of investigating who bought an avatar for someone. Personally I would suggest that if you've already earmarked that money you instead donate to a charity or buy yourself a nice meal with enough to spare for a generous tip Or the charity work the inevitable diaspora of Ukrainian refugees will need.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:59
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cinci zoo sniper posted:It’s the town of Donetsk, if we are being especially particular. It says it right there on the tweet. im suggesting that russian howitzers being across the border is the specifically significant bit of info there
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Feb 19, 2022 23:00
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^^^ That's been the case for about 8 years, so it's not exactly news. Them moving can be. Shes Not Impressed posted:Nazis are pro EU/NATO while also sniping protesters at Maidan? Nah, to Russian enablers the 2014 invasion is a "civil war" since they are incapable of seeing all the Russians calling the shots, or, you know, entire Russian armored divisions that were involved.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel partially governed implies like, several key posts in the cabinet; or a power sharing agreement. What posts do these far right figures hold in the government? You should watch the video, it goes into which cabinet posts they held and also what policies they were able to enact. Pretty chilling stuff
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Feb 19, 2022 23:03
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OddObserver posted:It's also posted by an organization that doesn't know WTF Wagner is, and thus clearly fails the test of being posted by someone with half a clue. To their credit, they did acknowledge their mistake https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1494832226638483456
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Feb 19, 2022 23:03
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Epic High Five posted:You'll have to autoban to fulfill this clause as we have no way of investigating who bought an avatar for someone. Personally I would suggest that if you've already earmarked that money you instead donate to a charity or buy yourself a nice meal with enough to spare for a generous tip I could just post the receipts but if you'd rather I spent that money on a charity of your choosing and you used your magical mod powers to give the deserved red texts, I'd be good with that too. I have no intention of losing the toxx
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Feb 19, 2022 23:04
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OddObserver posted:^^^ Or the medals given out to the Russian troops who occupied Crimea, whom Russia later acknowledged were Russian troops (what are you gonna do about it???).
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Feb 19, 2022 23:05
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KillHour posted:I could just post the receipts but if you'd rather I spent that money on a charity of your choosing and you used your magical mod powers to give the deserved red texts, I'd be good with that too. Oh, I was only commenting on how it can't really be a toxx and you should just buy them or don't, and of course I'd much rather that you send it to a charity instead, but it's your money in the end
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Feb 19, 2022 23:07
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OddObserver posted:Nah, to Russian enablers the 2014 invasion is a "civil war" since they are incapable of seeing all the Russians calling the shots, or, you know, entire Russian armored divisions that were involved. I mean a lot of these areas have a history of wanting to defect from Ukraine. Crimea even had a referendum on it in the 90s which overwhelmingly favored leaving Ukraine. When a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists took power in 2014 and (among other detestable policies) basically tried to ban Russian in common usage, the result was the civil war. It’s true that Russia has exploited this and has been militarily involved, but its afactual for you to pretend there isn’t local support for these anti-Kiev uprisings.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:08
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Red and Black posted:I mean Ukraine was in fact partially governed by Nazis. As you yourself state they held key posts in the Ukrainian government. The Svoboda party literally used call itself the social nationalists so pretty much a direct homage to the Nazi party. Can’t say how much power they hold in the current government though. And its true that not all Ukrainian are Nazis but thats kind of obvious I think. You’d think that, but it’s a major line in Kremlin’s propaganda, that a fair number of people does reiterate one way or another. Current Parliament makeup is roughly as follows: - centrist to centre-right opposition split 2:3 between Eurosceptics and Europhiles - centrist populist government, single party majority - populists and regionalists supporting government Soboda holds 1/450 seats. Lyashkovites and Right Sector have no seats in Parliament, and have a similarly tiny representation in regional governments. That said, there are individual idiots amongst the MPs, and influences of oligarchs and other internal and external actors at play, but until the recent escalation the electoral politics were mellowing out into a middle ground between the extremes of Yanukovych and Poroshenko. Impact of far right political forces is, generally speaking, quite localised.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:08
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That said, there are individual idiots amongst the MPs, and influences of oligarchs and other internal and external actors at play, but until the recent escalation the electoral politics were mellowing out into a middle ground between the extremes of Yanukovych and Poroshenko. Impact of far right political forces is, generally speaking, quite localised. Poroshenko was also originally elected as a vague moderate in the first place (much like Zelensky), taking more of a hardline position for re-election attempt, in part since he could actually deliver a few things dubious successes there.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:12
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Epic High Five posted:Oh, I was only commenting on how it can't really be a toxx and you should just buy them or don't, and of course I'd much rather that you send it to a charity instead, but it's your money in the end There weren't that many people commenting about it ITT so I'll tell you what. If Russia invades Ukraine (which is unfortunately starting to look more likely), I will fulfill my toxx clause AND match that amount with a donation to an Eastern European charity of the thread's choosing, and post the receipts for everything. If you would rather give the red texts as a mod, I will take the money I would have spent on the red text and donate that as well. Either way, red texts and charitable giving will be happening ITT.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:12
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You’d think that, but it’s a major line in Kremlin’s propaganda, that a fair number of people does reiterate one way or another. Thanks, this is a really useful post. But if you know, can you tell me why is the Azov batallion still part of national guard? And are there any indications the current government will recognize Russian as an official language again in certain areas with lots of ethnic Russians?
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Feb 19, 2022 23:15
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Red and Black posted:Thanks, this is a really useful post. But if you know, can you tell me why is the Azov batallion still part of national guard? And are there any indications the current government will recognize Russian as an official language again in certain areas with lots of ethnic Russians? Russian has never been an official language. It has always been a language people have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to use. (See article 10 of the Ukrainian Constitution). Red and Black posted:I mean a lot of these areas have a history of wanting to defect from Ukraine. No, they did not.  That's % of no vote in Ukrainian Independence referendum. Crimea is the only area with significant opposition. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 23:17
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Aren't outright fascist parties holding at least some seats in most European countries these days? I don't know that Ukraine can really be held as an extraordinary case in that regard, except perhaps that their fascists have beef with Putin's preferred brand of fascism.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:20
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Red and Black posted:and it doesn’t annex territory (someone should tell Mexico, Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc) In 1848, 1899, 1899, and 1898, respectively, yes. You'd be better off mentioning the Panama Canal Zone (1903). Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 23:23
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It is kind of loving annoying and really telling that some people are continuously posting "the Ukrainians are Nazis" when Ukraine is literally at the cusp of potentially being invaded and subjugated by Russia. If and when Russia finally has their equivalent of "der tag" will people be saying something like "any Ukrainian that runs to lviv is a Nazi. Any that stay are well disciplined Nazis" while cheering on the horrific occupation that could be coming? Have some loving decency on the topic and stop calling people who could be dead in a week from combined arms bombing Nazis. -- "" President Zelensky: Had an urgent conversation with President @EmmanuelMacron. Informed about the aggravation on the frontline, our losses, the shelling of Ukrainian politicians & international journalists. Discussed the need and possible ways of immediate de-escalation & political-diplomatic settlement "" So zelensky may be getting desperate. Especially with the "political diplomatic settlement" option. Which is tantamount to a conditional surrender. What could be the conditions? 50/50 pro Russian government? Land and water rights for crimea? A few oblasts conceded to Russia? A new constitution that Ukraine never joins nato or the EU? The options are not great all around but a neo liberal will always concede to fascist imperialism if the question arises. " NATO has relocated Ukraine staff from the capital Kyiv to Lviv in the west of the country and to Brussels for safety reasons, a NATO official said on Saturday "" "" The CSTO Secretary General said that with the consent of the Ukrainian authorities and with the sanction of the UN Security Council, peacekeepers of the organization could be brought into the Donbass "" "" Joint Forces Operation: 70 ceasefire violations today before 5pm, 60 of them with weapons prohibited by Minsk agreements, 2 Ukrainian servicemen killed, 4 more wounded "" Bad poo poo in the ceasefire department. Definitely felt like the 0 days were probably movement of arms and material days. Any day with no violations is a day soldiers can relax in the poo poo trenches so less eyes on the forward area. I'm seeing reports of 152mm SPGs have been seen moving through Donetsk. "" Ukrainian President says Kyiv wants a clear timeframe for NATO membership "" Heres a chaser: "" Occupation authorities in parts of Donetsk region claim detained local policeman, accused him in planting explosives at car of commander yesterday. Suspect told about schemes to deliver weapons and explosives to Donbas, also that Ukrainian military entered Belarus to watch Russian-Belarusian drill, also about recruiting of sleeping cells of agents "" So another cool false flag. Ukraine entered Belarus illegally to watch the drills. Which I wouldn't doubt to be honest. I mean this is an expected thing to do when threatened with annihilation
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Feb 19, 2022 23:23
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Red and Black posted:Thanks, this is a really useful post. But if you know, can you tell me why is the Azov batallion still part of national guard? And are there any indications the current government will recognize Russian as an official language again in certain areas with lots of ethnic Russians? I have no why Azov is tolerated. If I had to guess, no one in government wants to spend their time and money fighting Kolomoiskyi over a few hundred national guardsmen. As for the language, Russian has regional language status in all areas where it’s spoken by 10% of the population, as I recall it. Red and Black posted:basically tried to ban Russian in common usage I’d love to read more about this.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:24
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OddObserver posted:Russian has never been an official language. It has always been a language people have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to use. quote:No, they did not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum quote:
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Feb 19, 2022 23:26
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OddObserver posted:It's also posted by an organization that doesn't know WTF Wagner is, and thus clearly fails the test of being posted by someone with half a clue. Or the hosting a white nationalist conference, with representatives from the United States and every country in Europe EXCEPT Ukraine.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:28
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^^^^^ Huh, you would think the Croatian ones would know to skip it, but that's probably expecting too much from these sorts. Red and Black posted:This clearly isn’t right. In the Gravel Institute cites a report of certain facilities (even private ones) being forced to use Ukranian unless explicitly asked not to. I guess Article 10 isn’t worth much Maybe you should get better sources. There are significant problems with the idiotic language laws, but they are far from what you seem to think they are. The Ukrainian president is literally a native speaker of Russian (as, coincidentally, am I).
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Feb 19, 2022 23:30
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This thread lost its drat mind overnight
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Feb 19, 2022 23:36
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I have no why Azov is tolerated. If I had to guess, no one in government wants to spend their time and money fighting Kolomoiskyi over a few hundred national guardsmen. Ukrainian government can't deal with Azov easily at this point, because they have plenty of street activists, many of whom have guns. It's a very precarious situation. To Zelenskyi's credit he at the very least managed to press Avakov out, but there is a lot to do to turn the tide on the systemic issue of far right groups in Ukraine. cinci zoo sniper posted:As for the language, Russian has regional language status in all areas where it’s spoken by 10% of the population, as I recall it. There is no such thing as a regional language in Ukraine anymore, as the law from 2012 was deemed unconstitutional in 2018. Russian has no special status apart from being explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. OddObserver posted:Russian has never been an official language. It has always been a language people have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to use. It was de facto the second official language before Yuschenko. Ukrainian law currently limits the use of all languages that are not Ukrainian with special provisions for native minority languages (Crimean Tatar, Krymchak, Karaim, Urum, but not Russian), plus there are some leniency towards official EU languages. There is a limit to how many subjects in schools can be taught in languages other than Ukrainian, all services are supposed to be in Ukrainian, unless the customer is more comfortable with a different language, all government business is conducted only in Ukrainian, there are quotas to how much foreign languages can be used in TV programming, etc. However, a lot of this is not actually enforced. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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