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Killer robot posted:"Is it REALLY an invasion if Russia leaves a rump state behind?" has been a common thread of bet-hedging on Ukraine since 2014, hasn't it? Subtract a hundred years and yes
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Feb 21, 2022 22:29
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Deteriorata posted:Please provide a translation into English or at least a synopsis. Without that, this is meaningless for the vast majority of posters. It's official confirmation of Putin ordering "peacekeeping action" in Ukraine.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:29
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Fame Douglas posted:Russian troops have been in these regions of Ukraine since 2014. Why does it matter whether they were "these units"? There is a difference: Russia was denying they were Russian units. Now they are. So it is effectively ripping the bandaid off and calling it what it is.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:30
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Deteriorata posted:Please provide a translation into English or at least a synopsis. Without that, this is meaningless for the vast majority of posters. Majority of people actively posting here read Russian just fine. That said, since "translate tweet" button is on holiday, here's the short content of each document (identical copies for LNR and DNR): 1. recognize them as a sovereign nation 2. establish diplomatic relationships 3. establish a cooperation agreement 4. send in the army to support peace until (3) is done 5. effective now
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Feb 21, 2022 22:31
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Sir Bobert Fishbone posted:It's official confirmation of Putin ordering "peacekeeping action" in Ukraine. All signs point to a new realy real invasion
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Feb 21, 2022 22:31
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Moving the goalposts was always the endgame here.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:32
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https://twitter.com/UkrWarReport/status/1495873114814750730?t=haIK6t8Weq_HaTZhKJU7Rw&s=19 a little late prob
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Feb 21, 2022 22:32
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https://twitter.com/maryilyushina/status/1495870954647560197?s=20&t=x1JUZ0FqEq014mi40aOhzg https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1495872290256523264?s=20&t=x1JUZ0FqEq014mi40aOhzg The game being that they're not part of Ukraine anymore according to Russia.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:33
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Majority of people actively posting here read Russian just fine. That said, since "translate tweet" button is on holiday, here's the short content of each document (identical copies for LNR and DNR): Every single translation that gets touted here ends up being misleading at best. Why should i trust you?
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Feb 21, 2022 22:33
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I thought Zelensky was supposed to speak tonight, as of about an hour ago. I wonder if that's still happening.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:33
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Rodiel posted:Moving the goalposts was always the endgame here. E: Oops nvm you weren't disagreeing with me I think
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Feb 21, 2022 22:34
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Rodiel posted:Every single translation that gets touted here ends up being misleading at best. Why should i trust you? You definitely shouldn't automatically trust me, I'm just someone online.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You definitely shouldn't automatically trust me, I'm just someone online. Sensible and respectable.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:36
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Reuters confirming the order for the "peacekeeping operation" (read: invasion) https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1495871597059706887?s=21
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Feb 21, 2022 22:36
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Majority of people actively posting here read Russian just fine. That said, since "translate tweet" button is on holiday, here's the short content of each document (identical copies for LNR and DNR): huh, usually you host allied units after the cooperation agreement is established, not before have lnr and dnr made a formal request for military aid, or would that have taken too much time?
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Feb 21, 2022 22:37
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LegendaryFrog posted:Reuters confirming the order for the "peacekeeping operation" (read: invasion) Can we just call this an invasion and not worry about the feelings of goal post movers?
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Feb 21, 2022 22:37
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:huh, usually you host allied units after the cooperation agreement is established, not before there is no lnr/dnr
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Feb 21, 2022 22:38
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I did correctly remember that the toxx had its own invasion definition. welp, this is certaintly A Development idk whether to count russian military "establishing and maintaining peace in DLNR" as an invasion, and leave it to the mods to decide, but personally i'm leaning towards "yes" and i am happy to accept the loss of this toxx
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Feb 21, 2022 22:38
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:huh, usually you host allied units after the cooperation agreement is established, not before They did that before being recognized, i.e. yesterday.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:38
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I'm not surprised they are going for recognizing the lnr and dnr now. I dont think that was the plan but, never let a good crisis go to waste as they say.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:39
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:huh, usually you host allied units after the cooperation agreement is established, not before They have been asking for it for at least a week; if that’s a fig leaf someone wants to care about
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Feb 21, 2022 22:39
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If it was just peacekeeping, the evacuation of residents of LNR/DNR wouldn't be necessary, so that's part of the concern. Peacekeeping assumes you will keep the Peace. Moving the people you are trying to protect implies they expect to use force. Force recruiting teens and adults in these regions imply coming war. This does not smell of a peacekeeping action.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:39
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Despera posted:there is no lnr/dnr I mean we can quibble about what they are (puppets/mafia turf in state form/actually kinda de facto thingies) but they are existent Things.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:40
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Despera posted:there is no lnr/dnr The idea exists whether you like it or not.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:40
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Russia's trying to pretend Ukraine is about to attack the separatist republics, and some people are even falling for it, but it's a completely ludicrous assertion. So yeah, I definitely think Russia intends to use them as the launching point for a new invasion with some bullshit pretext about responding to Ukrainian aggression (basically like Georgia except with Ukraine not tripping into it as stupidly as Saakashvili did), I just consider it continuing build up until it actually moves beyond the contact point.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:41
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nurmie posted:welp, this is certaintly A Development I'm inclined to interpret it as not counting, unless mods or HonorableTB make a case for the opposite - your advisors is a relatively ambiguous term, which kind-of counts here. Besides, it may not take too long for something more substantial to happen, i.e. any breaches of the current frontline, or the state border elsewhere.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:41
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Sinteres posted:Russia's trying to pretend Ukraine is about to attack the separatist republics, and some people are even falling for it, but it's a completely ludicrous assertion. So yeah, I definitely think Russia intends to use them as the launching point for a new invasion with some bullshit pretext about responding to Ukrainian aggression (basically like Georgia except with Ukraine not tripping into it as stupidly as Saakashvili did), I just consider it continuing build up until it actually moves beyond the contact point. They have been shelling them since the beginning. It never stopped since 14.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:43
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As one of the toxxers, I feel like this constitutes an invasion, right? We have Putin's orders, his speech, and admittedly unconfirmed videos of Russian troops in the border. I leave it to the mod to make the final call, but I feel like it's pretty solid. I'm also okay with waiting for official confirmation
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Feb 21, 2022 22:43
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Now we see the robust sanctions by the West... (I looked, it's just sanctioning some few individuals lmao).
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Feb 21, 2022 22:43
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FishBulbia posted:https://twitter.com/UkrWarReport/status/1495873114814750730?t=haIK6t8Weq_HaTZhKJU7Rw&s=19 Depends entirely on what they want to do about it and why. These 3 cars we saw could simply be driving between garages.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:43
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HonorableTB posted:As one of the toxxers, I feel like this constitutes an invasion, right? Its borderline. We're keeping watch. Nobody's toxx will get acted on unless we all agree its fulfilled.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:44
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Haramstufe Rot posted:Now we see the robust sanctions by the West... (I looked, it's just sanctioning some few individuals lmao). The west doesnt give a gently caress and never did. The idea that my government cares is what gets me so heated (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2022 22:44
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Rodiel posted:They have been shelling them since the beginning. It never stopped since 14. That's gone both ways of course, but the narrative being constructed is that Ukraine is preparing an actual invasion, which is pretty clearly not true with Russian forces primed to attack even before this. Ukraine's politicians may be overly stubborn in their no concessions approach to diplomacy with Russia imo, but I don't think they're suicidal enough to zerg rush positions that have been defended in some form or another by Russia for years at a point when Russia has an extreme concentration of force prepared to respond. It makes the pretextual nature of the concern pretty obvious imo.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:45
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CommieGIR posted:Its borderline. We're keeping watch. Nobody's toxx will get acted on unless we all agree its fulfilled. Fair enough, happy to wait
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Feb 21, 2022 22:45
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Sinteres posted:That's gone both ways of course, but the narrative being constructed is that Ukraine is preparing an actual invasion, which is pretty clearly not true with Russian forces primed to attack even before this. Ukraine's politicians may be overly stubborn in their no concessions approach to diplomacy with Russia imo, but I don't think they're suicidal enough to zerg rush positions that have been defended in some form or another by Russia for years at a point when Russia has an extreme concentration of force prepared to respond. It makes the pretextual nature of the concern pretty obvious imo. Rodiel is a bad-faith poster; do not engage. I'll eat the probe for posting about posters. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2022 22:47
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cinci zoo sniper posted:They did that before being recognized, i.e. yesterday. freeasinbeer posted:They have been asking for it for at least a week; if that’s a fig leaf someone wants to care about thanks the constant firehouse of breaking news, unconfirmed reports, and russian propaganda over the last couple of days has been difficult to keep straight edit: Rodiel posted:The west doesnt give a gently caress and never did. The idea that my government cares is what gets me so heated sorry is this a complaint that the western is not intervening enough, or not intervening the right way, or what? not trying to put words in your mouth, but having a hard time parsing if you want more or less sanctions GhostofJohnMuir fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Feb 21, 2022 |
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Feb 21, 2022 22:47
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Sinteres posted:That's gone both ways of course, but the narrative being constructed is that Ukraine is preparing an actual invasion, which is pretty clearly not true with Russian forces primed to attack even before this. Ukraine's politicians may be overly stubborn in their no concessions approach to diplomacy with Russia imo, but I don't think they're suicidal enough to zerg rush positions that have been defended in some form or another by Russia for years at a point when Russia has an extreme concentration of force prepared to respond. It makes the pretextual nature of the concern pretty obvious imo. Ukraine is a pawn. Focusing on Russia is dumb, maybe they thought that the west was a better master but it seams like their leadership at least is realizing they made a deal with the devil. The actual people that have to live and work there are hosed for a long long time.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:48
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Fame Douglas posted:Russian troops have been in these regions of Ukraine since 2014. Why does it matter whether they were "these units"? Because ignoring direct replacements if you commit new military formations to an invasion it's a new, additional, invasion. D-Day was a new invasion of Europe, despite the allies having already landed at Anzio. When we invaded the Arghandab River Valley in 2011 that was a new invasion despite being in a country we had invaded and occupied a decade prior. When your troops enter a place that is ostensibly controlled by another party, uninvited, we call that an invasion. If you do it again it's still an invasion.
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Feb 21, 2022 22:49
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CommieGIR posted:If it was just peacekeeping, the evacuation of residents of LNR/DNR wouldn't be necessary, so that's part of the concern. Peacekeeping assumes you will keep the Peace. Moving the people you are trying to protect implies they expect to use force. Force recruiting teens and adults in these regions imply coming war. Ukraine was already deterred from attacking Donbass with a force less than half this size in the past. If you could recognize and guarantee their independence with 50~60 BTGs, so why deploy >110?
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Feb 21, 2022 22:50
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SourKraut posted:Rodiel is a bad-faith poster; do not engage. When have I posted in bad faith? I may get a bit squirrely sometimes but I post my real honest views
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Feb 21, 2022 22:50
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