|
Ghetto Prince posted:It's hard to call NATO defensive when it's been expanding constantly , and the NATO intervention in Libya wasn't that long ago either. You don't know a goddamn thing about what you're saying.
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 15:16 |
|
|
Terebus posted:Congrats on Tulsi Gabbard level posting. It's incredible how hard some people will dig to blame the US for Putin's insanity. Russia and Russia alone is responsible for what’s happening in Ukraine. Please gently caress don’t think I feel otherwise. I’m stating what has so very obviously happened, but at the end of the day there’s only one responsible actor. I’m no apologist. For god’s sake I’d almost rather be an apologist for Russia than some Gabbard stan. Please don’t. We should’ve done everything possible to guarantee the accession of Ukraine into NATO in 2008. Yushchenko’s government collapsed concurrent the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine, but they were explicitly in opposition to Putin’s regime. The EU and NATO were already discussing the accession of Ukraine, we immediately watched the country be pulled apart by Putin fucks like PM Tymoshenko at the time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:54
|
|
|
lol at NATO's aggressive expansion east. People beg their governments to join NATO out of very real fears of Russia marching in again. If a purely defensive alliance is expanding perhaps there's a common thing the countries willingly joining are worried about?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:55
|
|
|
Ukr. Navy operations base gone https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1496739458669891584
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:57
|
|
|
Ghetto Prince posted:It's hard to call NATO defensive when it's been expanding constantly , and the NATO intervention in Libya wasn't that long ago either. Ahh yes, states, that were terrorized by the USSR, joining in a defensive pact against the zombie USSR are an expansive and aggressive force. It only makes sense that Russia invaded them because they were so threatening. Hopefully Russia will be able to "liberate" the populace of these historically Soviet blocs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:57
|
|
|
Blaming NATO for Putin’s behavior is funny, considering his actions are a perfect illustration why every democracy in Europe should desperately want to be a member.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
Apparently, Moscow is being visited by the Pakistani Prime Minister rn https://twitter.com/Journo_AB/status/1496720185247547396?s=20&t=xqbkMFFaP1U_Nt5glaSX0Q This is pretty peculiar considering India's support for Russia in the UNSC meeting Monday.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
Wafflepoet posted:Russia and Russia alone is responsible for what’s happening in Ukraine. You literally just said this you shitstain: Wafflepoet posted:
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
So is there anything stopping Putin from attacking US cyber assets in the US like when they "accidentally" took out the colonial pipeline?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:58
|
|
|
Ghetto Prince posted:It's hard to call NATO defensive when it's been expanding constantly , and the NATO intervention in Libya wasn't that long ago either. It's been expanding by... having countries ask to be a part of it, and being allowed in. It isn't expanding in the way, say, Russia is expanding, just to pick a random example.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:59
|
|
|
i was really holding out hope that things would at least remain limited. christ, what a pointless waste of livesWafflepoet posted:It’s a damned shame the Israelis vetoed the sale of the Iron Dome system to Ukraine. if the iron dome was struggling to neutralize the number of rockets the palestinians could manage to smuggle through tunnels into the rubble of gaza, it wouldn't have done poo poo against a concerted artillery and missile attack by one of the largest militaries in the world
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:59
|
|
|
dominoeffect posted:Does anyone know what AA capabilities Ukraine has aside from the Stingers it was supplied with?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 07:59
|
|
|
Wafflepoet posted:Russia and Russia alone is responsible for what’s happening in Ukraine. Saying a magic phrase before the cavalcade of apologist bullshit straight from Lavrovs mouth won't make people overlook the substance of your posts
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:00
|
|
|
Hooking up with Pakistan is odd for Russia since it has a de facto alliance with India and it could use a major power by its side
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:00
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1496740935522451457?s=20&t=VhNMCleMdHbMPYT-pMItWg
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:00
|
|
|
Joink posted:cams Thank you, quoting for later
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:00
|
|
|
Christopher Miller (Buzzfeed News) is an account to watch https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1496738748175982594 This is the first I've heard of naval action https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1496739927568048128 From Ukraine's foreign minister https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1496731660066435072
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:01
|
|
|
Wafflepoet posted:gently caress Putin. gently caress the current Russian government and everything it represents. Don’t think for a moment I care for anyone other than the Ukrainian people in this situation. Stating the basic facts of the geopolitical situation isn’t supporting the actions of the Russian state. They’re just facts. My friend, can you cut down this grotesque ghoul posting for at least couple of days until people have emotionally calmed down? Or at least don't do it here, there are other war threads on SA where it's accepted
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:01
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:If the citizens of Georgia and Ukraine want to elect leaders who push for NATO membership that's not the fault of NATO. It's not like almost every other post-Soviet state hasn't joined the organization. Imagine a bully is about to take you and your friend's lunch money for the nth time this year but otherwise would leave you unharmed other than a few slaps to the face. Then this group of guys over there are telling you not to hand over the lunch money anymore and join the club so that the bully can't take your lunch money anymore. You watch some of your friends join the group and the bully grumbles a bit but does nothing. So you turn around and tell the bully to go gently caress himself and proceed to walk towards the rest of the group but the group says whoa, hold on, give us a few minutes. You are a bit confused and wait around a bit and now the pissed-off bully punches you in the face and tells you to hand over the lunch money. You look back over and the group is a bit nervous all of a sudden but tells you to stick up for yourself. The bully eyes up the rest of the group for a sec then proceeds to trip you, sit on top of you, and then beats the living poo poo out of you. The group that told you to stick up for yourself turns around, puts their hands in their pocket, and starts walking away whistling quietly. NATO and the US were a bunch of turds. They should have told Ukraine in 2014 that we were loving with you and you probably aren't going to get in since we don't actually want a military confrontation with Russia and that they should really start looking to make a deal with Putin. Instead, we keep dangling the carrot making the Ukrainians think they actually had a real choice to make, and then when the hammer comes down, we just watch and complain strongly when we knew from day 1 that we were never really in the business of going to fight for Ukraine if the chips got shoved in the middle. THAT is where NATO's fault lies.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:03
|
|
|
Ghetto Prince posted:It's hard to call NATO defensive when it's been expanding constantly Yes, the imperialist NATO just steamrolling over all those poor counties who */checks notes*/ asked to be admitted or were invited and accepted.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:03
|
|
|
Wafflepoet posted:Russia and Russia alone is responsible for what’s happening in Ukraine. You can't guarantee ascension. If you wish to join you have to fulfill a number of requirements and then you submit an application which is either approved or denied depending on various political considerations. The process can take decades and you may never join simply because some other country has beef with you. A guarantee would be a lie. Everybody knows this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:05
|
|
|
That's it by god, it's time to be mean to 2 or 3 more of London's Russian oligarchs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:07
|
|
|
Russian forces seem to be advancing pretty steadily from the east without much resistance visible. https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496740663592771587 Survivors from the airforce are bringing their planes to neutral countries https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/status/1496741180276678656?s=20&t=n1EyppYe0oTJ6_iRYSeZjQ There is no reason to suggest this is going to go any different than the very quick intial operation predicted (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-02-21/russias-shock-and-awe). What comes after is hard to say.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:07
|
|
|
Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1496740935522451457?s=20&t=VhNMCleMdHbMPYT-pMItWg Yeah, assuming these are russians, they are right outside the city. https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1496741718250692612 Apparent map location. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0548924,36.3611721,3a,55.7y,245.83h,89.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soWLVNlCub3MTKCVJYVBxcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:08
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Hmmmm... Don’t be cute. My statement isn’t incorrect. NATO explicitly shares responsibility for the escalation of this situation. No one shares responsibility for the loving invasion of Ukraine except Russia, though. There’s nothing disingenuous about this statement. steinrokkan posted:Pretty much. NATO's main failure was being too complacent and friendly towards Russia and treating Putin as a peer who could be reasoned with without the backing of arms. When I say this I’m a goddamn Tulsi Gabbard Russia apologist plant. I don’t get it. GABA ghoul posted:My friend, can you cut down this grotesque ghoul posting for at least couple of days until people have emotionally calmed down? Or at least don't do it here, there are other war threads on SA where it's accepted I legitimately do not understand what I’m doing that’s ghoulish. I’m not being emotional, I’m certainly not calling people names or accusing them of being some kind of plants. I didn’t see another thread. Could you point me to one where basic discussions of international relations aren’t met with frothing anger, misunderstanding, and name calling? The stuff I’m saying isn’t wrong, I haven’t made any value judgments against anyone except Russia. I’ll gently caress off. I’ve spent years studying the region, it’s been a passion of mine since university. This forum was my favorite place to actually discuss things, particularly relating to IR, but I haven’t been around here since 2012 or so (lost account). Is this not the place to discuss the horrific situation unfolding in Ukraine? Owling Howl posted:You can't guarantee ascension. If you wish to join you have to fulfill a number of requirements and then you submit an application which is either approved or denied depending on various political considerations. The process can take decades and you may never join simply because some other country has beef with you. A guarantee would be a lie. Everybody knows this. Yeah, this is obvious. We have all known and been told explicitly by Russia what would happen if accession talks continued between Ukraine and NATO. We were either going to let them join or we won’t and it’s unacceptable how loudly NATO sought to bring Ukraine in. gently caress the rules. They were serious or they weren’t an it’s obvious they weren’t. Ukrainians are literally dying. It’s not NATO’s fault before anyone accuses me once again, but this is literally Putin’s justification for invasion. This isn’t a value judgment or some kind of analysis. Melancholia fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Feb 24, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:08
|
|
|
This thread feels like it is going way too slow with how quickly things are progressing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:09
|
|
|
Kirios posted:This thread feels like it is going way too slow with how quickly things are progressing. There is a very unstable situation on the ground, that is unfolding very quickly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:10
|
|
|
Report from my lovely family in Kiev: -Everything is fine, the only people fleeing Kiev are the horrible russian-hating scum from western ukraine and not any true kiev locals. -If you're not a nazi you have nothing to worry about. -Nothing will change in Ukraine, they'll just "get" a new more reasonable government picked by Putin which can't be any worse than the current government picked by the US. -Who cares, this is just the fault of those maidan losers. Ah, my family...
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:11
|
|
|
BTW looks like uncle Joe's intel was right after all lol  GhostofJohnMuir posted:i was really holding out hope that things would at least remain limited. christ, what a pointless waste of lives
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:12
|
|
|
Kirios posted:This thread feels like it is going way too slow with how quickly things are progressing. It's because slow mode is on
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:12
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:Apparently, Moscow is being visited by the Pakistani Prime Minister rn They're competing. Russian military actions tend to correlate with a resulting arms sale.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:14
|
|
|
Kyiv subway being used as a bomb shelter https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1496734758843387904?s=20&t=xqbkMFFaP1U_Nt5glaSX0Q
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:14
|
|
|
A someone who grew up during the Cold War this is frightening and depressing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:14
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Report from my lovely family in Kiev: Sounds very much like my parents who always think in very pro-Iran anti-US terms (and so by extension, sometimes pro-Russia). Dad even said "Ukraine is actually part of Russia isn't it?" a few weeks ago. It's like people short-circuit their thinking into enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend logic and don't consider the specifics that make every situation unique.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:14
|
|
|
Owling Howl posted:You can't guarantee ascension. If you wish to join you have to fulfill a number of requirements and then you submit an application which is either approved or denied depending on various political considerations. The process can take decades and you may never join simply because some other country has beef with you. A guarantee would be a lie. Everybody knows this. The problem is, the organization's leadership did make that promise, with the full knowledge that France and Germany would veto it. That was, as they say in diplomatic circles, a dick move. None of that justifies this invasion, Putin is the very clear bad guy, it's just important to understand the context.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:16
|
|
|
Not sure what "terms" the Ukraine could have come to with Putin. Hes been harping on all week how the Ukraine isn't a country. Become Belarussia 2.0 is probably the best the Ukraine could have gotten.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:18
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:Sounds very much like my parents who always think in very pro-Iran anti-US terms (and so by extension, sometimes pro-Russia). Dad even said "Ukraine is actually part of Russia isn't it?" a few weeks ago. It's like people short-circuit their thinking into enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend logic and don't consider the specifics that make every situation unique. Agreed. The US sucks but it sucks because we failed to protect Ukraine from this poo poo show. It doesn't make the shitshow good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:19
|
|
|
Kirios posted:This thread feels like it is going way too slow with how quickly things are progressing. We should perhaps take off slow mode
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:19
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Unless Russia invades a major NATO country like Poland, I can't imagine any world power intervening. If Russia invades a "minor" NATO country like one of the Baltics they kind of have to intervene, otherwise it voids the entire point of being in a mutually-obligated military alliance
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 15:16 |
|
|
Wafflepoet posted:Yeah, this is obvious. We have all known and been told explicitly by Russia what would happen if accession talks continued between Ukraine and NATO. We were either going to let them join or we won’t and it’s unacceptable how loudly NATO sought to bring Ukraine in. gently caress the rules. They were serious or they weren’t an it’s obvious they weren’t. Ukrainians are literally dying. It’s not NATO’s fault before anyone accuses me once again, but this is literally Putin’s justification for invasion. This isn’t a value judgment or some kind of analysis. Stop taking actions that would prevent me from invading you, it's making we want to invade you!
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2022 08:21
|
|