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A big flaming stink posted:i actually would like you to explain this perspective if you do not mind, because this interpretation did not occur to me It implies the U.S. has more support coming, making Russia's invasion more expensive, making the prospect of peace possibly more desirable for Putin. Maybe enough that he'll accept fewer conditions to whatever his idea of "neutrality" is. I doubt it though. Putin's speeches recently suggest he's firmly in some nationalist fervor and I doubt he'd gamble so much and accept anything less than effective control over Ukraine going forward. Still, I'd rather the U.S. not foster defeatism by admitting Ukraine's fight is probably doomed, especially when greater western support is at least hypothetically a wild card Ukraine can use at the negotiating table.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:22
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KitConstantine posted:Doesn't this comment from a Ukrainian member of parliament sound like they need the US to encourage their resistance to Russian occupation? Dang, hope this doesn't undermine negotiations and the commitment to peace and diplomacy of the guys who invaded them 2 days ago.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:22
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Telsa Cola posted:Could be a couple things, a multinational force also shows you are united/have allies willing to see it through. Its why everyone always plays up multinational colialitions Yeah, the U.S. went for the "coalition of the willing" for a reason, and it wasn't because they needed Honduran troops in order to take Baghdad.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:22
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Despera posted:Like holy poo poo these people believe the United States is the only country with any agency throughout human history gavrilo princip was a cia plant
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Feb 26, 2022 02:23
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A big flaming stink posted:im not saying youre incorrect, but absolutely no one should be confident enough to make this sort of statement 2 days into a freaking war. nobody in this thread has the slightest idea how the fighting is truly going, not just due to propaganda on both sides, but also the fog of war I know Putin has gone from demanding unconditional surrender, to begging Ukraine's military to stage a coup, to "lets talk." I also know Russia failed to take Kiev spectacularly on day one and lost one of it's best infantry units in the process, I know they've failed to even secure air superiority despite an overwhelming disparity in fighter aircraft, I know they've been repulsed repeatedly outside Kharkov, and have now asked (and been rejected by) Kazakhstan to commit troops in Ukraine, and I've seen dozens of destroyed Russian tanks, APCs, and helicopters... Do you know how many M1A2s the US lost in all of Iraq and Afghanistan? Two whole MBTs. Russia has lost somewhere around 40 so far. It is very clear to anyone who is watching that NATO's armed forces are orders of magnitude more capable than the Russian Federation's at this point. It's as obvious as the sun rising in the morning and setting at night.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:23
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Sinteres posted:Yes? I've been extremely clear about my contention that the US took the hardest line (other than Russia, obviously) on diplomacy when this war might have been averted This war could have never been averted unless Ukraine consented to becoming a Russian vassal state, because that is the war's objective. Acting like America realizing that before the rest of the world and announcing it is what caused it to be the case is deluded.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:23
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freeasinbeer posted:The CIA is both the most hyper competent and utterly dumb group of folks according to some folks. They are mostly idiots. They had some hits like Project Azorian, but overall it was a boys club famous for pseudoscience and outright lovely performance.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:23
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If I understand correctly, it's not Russia requesting troops and Kazakhstan denying, but Kazakhstan pre-emptively distancing because there were talks about CSTO peacekeepers several days ago.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:24
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Tigey posted:Most likely to try to take some heat off of Russia and provide extra 'legitimacy' by having other nations join the effort. Basically like the Coalition of the Willing during the Iraq War. Oh, that would make sense to me. Interesting option to ponder about.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:24
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Lots of videos fighting inside Kyiv city limits now on social media from the streams I'm following. I think the goal is to take Kyiv tonight as was predicted earlier.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:24
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Sanguinia posted:This war could have never been averted unless Ukraine consented to becoming a Russian vassal state, because that is the war's objective. Acting like America realizing that before the rest of the world and announcing it is what caused it to be the case is deluded. I don't want to rehash the pre-war position too much because we can't go back in time and we're discouraged from repeating ourselves here, but I still think Russia would have taken half a cookie for free instead of having to fight and endure crippling sanctions to get the whole thing.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:25
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ZombieLenin posted:I know Putin has gone from demanding unconditional surrender, to begging Ukraine's military to stage a coup, to "lets talk." I also know Russia failed to take Kiev spectacularly on day one and lost one of it's best infantry units in the process, I know they've failed to even secure air superiority despite an overwhelming disparity in fighter aircraft, I know they've been repulsed repeatedly outside Kharkov, and have now asked (and been rejected by) Kazakhstan to commit troops in Ukraine, and I've seen dozens of destroyed Russian tanks, APCs, and helicopters... Do you have sources for this information? I am not skeptical, I just want to read about it firsthand.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:26
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ZombieLenin posted:I know Putin has gone from demanding unconditional surrender, to begging Ukraine's military to stage a coup, to "lets talk." I also know Russia failed to take Kiev spectacularly on day one and lost one of it's best infantry units in the process, I know they've failed to even secure air superiority despite an overwhelming disparity in fighter aircraft, I know they've been repulsed repeatedly outside Kharkov, and have now asked (and been rejected by) Kazakhstan to commit troops in Ukraine, and I've seen dozens of destroyed Russian tanks, APCs, and helicopters... People have been saying that Russia apparently put its worst troops first and saves the good ones for later which makes no loving sense to me but I’m not a military guy and what part of Putin’s strategy does make sense anyway
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Feb 26, 2022 02:26
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A big flaming stink posted:then gently caress the state department for prolonging a war in order to score points against its geopolitical rival at the cost of another nation's people. 'scoring points' in this case is regional security and preventing nato states from being attacked -- this is their primary interest. if the goal is preventing ukrainian casualties im not sure what you expect nato to do about it, russia declared war against ukraine.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:26
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Sir John Falstaff posted:Yeah, the U.S. went for the "coalition of the willing" for a reason, and it wasn't because they needed Honduran troops in order to take Baghdad. Which also explains why they got so butthurt over France nope-ing out. A big old timey ally not showing up is very bad optics. Not that Iraq 2 was squeaky clean in that regard otherwise…
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Feb 26, 2022 02:26
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Paladinus posted:If I understand correctly, it's not Russia requesting troops and Kazakhstan denying, but Kazakhstan pre-emptively distancing because there were talks about CSTO peacekeepers several days ago. What do you base this on? Linked statements suggest that a request was issued.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:26
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freeasinbeer posted:The CIA is both the most hyper competent and utterly dumb group of folks according to some folks. Guatemala was probably the big success in terms of purely CIA-driven leadership change. Everything else, to me, was the CIA getting a bit lucky and being one of several factors at play. I feel like almost every horrible thing the CIA has backed in, say, Africa could have easily happened without CIA involvement because of the situations at play.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:27
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Deteriorata posted:I had this crazy hope at the start that the invasion would be a complete face plant, Ukraine would counterattack and retake all of its land. nah. as cool as that would be the Ukrainians don't have the military strength for that. as much as id love some Gandalf on the hill scene. cinci zoo sniper posted:Why are troops being requested from Kazakhstan at all? Additionally, the former Soviet republic said it is not recognizing the Russia-created breakaway republics upheld by Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, as a pretext for its aggression in Ukraine.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:27
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Huggybear posted:Do you have sources for this information? I am not skeptical, I just want to read about it firsthand. I would tell you to read this thread. There are hundreds of links to all of these things in this thread at this point. I don't really feel like curating the relevant articles and links for you when they're already above you.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:27
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People have been saying that Russia apparently put its worst troops first and saves the good ones for later which makes no loving sense to me but I’m not a military guy and what part of Putin’s strategy does make sense anyway I don't know if I buy that for the amount of air cav and para troopers they used. Those folks tend to be pretty skilled due to the insanity of their job.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:27
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this has to be the most idiotic imperial adventure in our lifetimes right? ukraine is going to have an incredibly well equipped partisan force. like afghanistan x10
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Feb 26, 2022 02:28
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People have been saying that Russia apparently put its worst troops first and saves the good ones for later which makes no loving sense to me but I’m not a military guy and what part of Putin’s strategy does make sense anyway It sounds like an excuse to me, tbh. I don't think they take the shot at Kiev airport on day 1 or forego a bombing campaign before invading if they see this as a grinding war of attrition from the start.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:28
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Huggybear posted:Do you have sources for this information? I am not skeptical, I just want to read about it firsthand. The bit about Kazakhstan refusing to play ball was referenced by NBC not long ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-live-updates-n1289976 Here's the relevant part: Kazakhstan, one of Russia's closest allies and a southern neighbor, is denying a request for its troops to join the offensive in Ukraine, officials said Friday. Additionally, the former Soviet republic said it is not recognizing the Russia-created breakaway republics upheld by Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, as a pretext for its aggression in Ukraine. Despite ceasefire accords covering the disputed land, Putin on Monday declared Russia's recognition of Luhansk People’s Republic (LNR) and the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) as independent states. The surprising development from a traditional ally of Russia has the support of the United States. “We welcome Kazakhstan’s announcement that they will not recognize the LPR and DPR," the National Security Council said in a statement. "We also welcome Kazakhstan’s refusal to send its forces to join Putin’s war in Ukraine."
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Feb 26, 2022 02:28
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Dapper_Swindler posted:nah. as cool as that would be the Ukrainians don't have the military strength for that. as much as id love some Gandalf on the hill scene. The strategic situation still sucks horribly for Ukraine, yeah.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:28
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Sinteres posted:I don't want to rehash the pre-war position too much because we can't go back in time and we're discouraged from repeating ourselves here, but I still think Russia would have taken half a cookie for free instead of having to fight and endure crippling sanctions to get the whole thing. I get what you're saying, but Ukraine would have never agreed to that, and Russia since they started being resisted in 2014 also believed Ukraine would not agree to that. So while that offer might have made for a different present, I think the idea is moot because no one would have considered it.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:28
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Hey folks, please check events in your area and turn out to your local pro-Ukraine demonstration. You're not going to directly affect Putin's decision making, but the more this makes the news, the more likely your governments will pursue a more stringent response against Putin.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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Acebuckeye13 posted:gavrilo princip was a cia plant Everyone just stood around till 1776 so they could get bullied
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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Peanut Butler posted:Russian UN Ambassador claiming they seized Chernobyl to, 'prevent Ukraine from making a dirty bomb' and that 'radiation levels are low' Weaponize Chernobyl intentionally? No. The possibility of blowing up the reactors to prevent the Ukrainians from restarting them to power northern Ukraine? Definitely. Nessus posted:I figure the "actual" Ghost of Kyiv will turn out to be a guy in a MIG-29 who managed to get a couple of kills solo and a ton of people saw him. He may already be dead. I like the explanation that it was observers from the ground witnessing the aerial counterattack of Hostemol and thinking multiple MiG-29s where a single plane, since it's the only Ukrainian plane they can recognize and the built-up area around Kyiv cuts off the view of the sky to see the bigger picture. cinci zoo sniper posted:Why are troops being requested from Kazakhstan at all? Didn't the government almost collapse and needed the CSTO (mostly Russia) to help beat back the uprisings a couple months ago? Definitely too soon to pull their military and security forces a few thousand kilometers away.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1497326008806125569 Any other suggestions that this is the case?
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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Baronjutter posted:Weather the "mainstream left" wants to admit it or not, we have a huge putin apology problem. Left spaces are filled with insanity like this right now. Regarding the DSA coming out as anti-any-sanctions:
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People have been saying that Russia apparently put its worst troops first and saves the good ones for later which makes no loving sense to me but I’m not a military guy and what part of Putin’s strategy does make sense anyway i sorta get the idea. use the coscripts and the regulars as the meat grinder troops and the good/spec ops as the scalpel or whatever. but i kinda think thats not fully the case here. i dont think they have secret weapons in reserve. just various war crime bombs and more men and tanks.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People have been saying that Russia apparently put its worst troops first and saves the good ones for later which makes no loving sense to me but I’m not a military guy and what part of Putin’s strategy does make sense anyway
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Feb 26, 2022 02:30
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cinci zoo sniper posted:What do you base this on? Linked statements suggest that a request was issued. I'm still following what's going on in Kazakhstan a bit (a lot is happening, by the way), and there was this article three days ago. https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2022/02/22/7325004/
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Feb 26, 2022 02:30
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Sinteres posted:I don't want to rehash the pre-war position too much because we can't go back in time and we're discouraged from repeating ourselves here, but I still think Russia would have taken half a cookie for free instead of having to fight and endure crippling sanctions to get the whole thing. They could easily have stopped at the line of control or even the historic line of the oblasts and done a Crimea. Its not like Ukraine could launch an offensive against that. They transparently aren't going to settle. Remember at this point Putin has staked his reputation on puppeting the Ukraine if not outright absorbing it. They had half the cookie in hand and made a play for the whole drat thing.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:30
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freeasinbeer posted:The CIA is both the most hyper competent and utterly dumb group of folks according to some folks. Is this an unorthodox view? Kermit Roosevelt’s memoirs of it make it seem like a total farce, made only funnier because he’s oblivious to it. Unfortunately out of sheer luck it got the outcome they wanted, and they took all the wrong lessons from that.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:30
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Rad Russian posted:Lots of videos fighting inside Kyiv city limits now on social media from the streams I'm following. I think the goal is to take Kyiv tonight as was predicted earlier. What streams are those?
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Feb 26, 2022 02:30
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khwarezm posted:https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1497326008806125569 It would be a pretty decent PR move for Russia to present survivors after the whole mythos was created. So I don't really buy it. Like their whole PR poo poo show right now is in a large part of lack of restraint and them having survivors and parading them around would be a good move. If an idiot like me can think of it I'm sure they would have done it.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:31
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Orthanc6 posted:I get what you're saying, but Ukraine would have never agreed to that, and Russia since they started being resisted in 2014 also believed Ukraine would not agree to that. So while that offer might have made for a different present, I think the idea is moot because no one would have considered it. The specific "cookie" Sinteres keeps mentions is also not something that the Ukrainian government could legally agree to, too. (I do think there were deals that could have been made that would work out for both sides, but they would have required Russia to make some actual concessions, not just "we won't murder you")
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Feb 26, 2022 02:31
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Omon Ra posted:Yeah, this is absolutely a "masks off" moment for zealous American leftists. No better than the extreme right, just bloodthirsty, clueless morons all around. i wouldn't go that far at all. its mask off for the real dumb gently caress parts of the left/"left" but a majority are supporting the ukraine here. most of the anti Ukraine/etc poo poo i see is from trumpist types or the dumbest tankies.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:31
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Smeef posted:Is this an unorthodox view? Kermit Roosevelt’s memoirs of it make it seem like a total farce, made only funnier because he’s oblivious to it. Unfortunately out of sheer luck it got the outcome they wanted, and they took all the wrong lessons from that. Yup. The CIA in a nutshell.
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Feb 26, 2022 02:32
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