Xombie posted:This isn't "vague", you're just ignorant about it. We have been aiding Ukraine for 8 years. Trump was impeached for suspending $400m in aid to Ukraine to try to extort them. By that time, in 2019, we had already spend $1.6 BILLION on aid to Ukraine since 2014. The funding pre-war makes sense. We were actively training, supplying arms, & had some troops in the country. With a war under way, I don't see how we can do any of those things and wonder what the $600MM could be used for anything other than turning Ukraine into Afghanistan - which I see as an atrocity for all the people that will be impacted. I respectfully disagree with all of your other points.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:16
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Ciprian Maricon posted:How is something that is made up and did not occur evidence that this is a situation that could have happened? Not what I'm saying. I'm pretty confident the Ghost is crowdsourced propaganda and a completely fictional tale, it's just interesting to me that it turns out that Russia's entire operation in Ukraine was the kind of outlier condition situation in which remarkable situations like that could have come about. They largely don't happen anymore precisely because of the ways in which militaries know how to operate to protect their own air assets, but Russia was straight up all over the place in a peer war extended into Ukranian home turf, and their military systems were wildly unaware of the actual conditions.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:17
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OddObserver posted:Some important educational material for you: Thanks for this, I love reading/listening to speakers of other languages, explain their relationship with English. Endlessly fascinating to me for some reason.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:17
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Randarkman posted:I'm baffled by people who are seemingly offended by the Ghost of Kyiv proganda campaign and seem intent to prove and convice others that it's propanda. It's a loving legend, what don't you get? It should give one a moment's pause: what do we actually know about what's going on? Why do I think what I think about the war?
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Mar 1, 2022 21:18
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https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1498741231224033280 Jesus that's grim.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:20
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Kavros posted:Not what I'm saying. I'm pretty confident the Ghost is crowdsourced propaganda and a completely fictional tale, it's just interesting to me that it turns out that Russia's entire operation in Ukraine was the kind of outlier condition situation in which remarkable situations like that could have come about. They largely don't happen anymore precisely because of the ways in which militaries know how to operate to protect their own air assets, but Russia was straight up all over the place in a peer war extended into Ukranian home turf, and their military systems were wildly unaware of the actual conditions. So... the weird made up story didn't happen, but the made up stories about conditions on the ground corroborate the other weird made up stories? Exactly why are you believing everything that gets tweeted under the fog of war?
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Mar 1, 2022 21:20
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ZombieLenin posted:Given the surprising number of capitalist entities just that totally withdrawing from the Russian market today: Apple, Disney, Nike, Visa, etc. regular Russians aren’t going to have anything left to buy. Punching holes in your tank's gas can is honestly the optimal nonviolent passive military protest everyone is looking for. They can then surrender, and get to chill out as a PoW in Latvia with full amnesty. They can avoid being a part of warcrimes, and maybe even repatriate back to Russia once this invasion is settled and things look better at home. Thinking on it more, maybe the EU needs to start a work or education program to give these soldiers something to do and build job skills while they wait out this disaster. Give them some more incentives to surrender.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:21
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ZombieLenin posted:Given the surprising number of capitalist entities just that totally withdrawing from the Russian market today: Apple, Disney, Nike, Visa, etc. regular Russians aren’t going to have anything left to buy. I mean, there is rent and everything, and everyone knows those guys want their money. With the ruble cratering, it's going to have an unbelievably bad effect on the economy, even outside the whole everyone pulling out of russia part.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:22
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So... the weird made up story didn't happen, but the made up stories about conditions on the ground corroborate the other weird made up stories? Exactly why are you believing everything that gets tweeted under the fog of war? How do we know anything at all indeed? If the ghost isn't real, is Kyiv real? Which of you have ever seen a Ukrainian?
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Mar 1, 2022 21:22
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OddObserver posted:Some important educational material for you: That is fantastic the vernacular is p.much dick jokes all the way down. I don't know poo poo about Ice Hockey but Russian commentary sounds painful.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:23
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1st_Panzer_Div. posted:The funding pre-war makes sense. We were actively training, supplying arms, & had some troops in the country. With a war under way, I don't see how we can do any of those things The same way that every other country supporting them is doing it. Ukraine is bordered by multiple NATO countries. I don't understand how this isn't obvious to you. quote:and wonder what the $600MM could be used for anything other than turning Ukraine into Afghanistan - which I see as an atrocity for all the people that will be impacted. This is a weird comparison to trot out without any explanation, especially considering the atrocities committed by Russia against Afghanistan, and the fact that Ukraine is a western nation that has an existing centralized democratic government and organized military. quote:I respectfully disagree with all of your other points. Unless you reply to them, I don't really care. If you're going to have an opinion, and even bother to voice it, have the courage to defend it under the tiniest bit of scrutiny.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:23
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Randarkman posted:I'm baffled by people who are seemingly offended by the Ghost of Kyiv proganda campaign and seem intent to prove and convice others that it's propanda. It's a loving legend, what don't you get? It's funny when they claim the guy did a Just Cause 2 move, and it's funny when people believe it. What, you don't think that's funny?
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Mar 1, 2022 21:24
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biglads posted:That is fantastic the vernacular is p.much dick jokes all the way down. "I will kill him to the dick!" I could get used to Russian dick lingo
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Mar 1, 2022 21:24
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Randarkman posted:How do we know anything at all indeed? If the ghost isn't real, is Kyiv real? Which of you have ever seen a Ukrainian? Yes, "you can't believe everything tweeted during a war" is an identical statement to "you can't believe anything at all." Great thinking.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:25
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Randarkman posted:How do we know anything at all indeed? If the ghost isn't real, is Kyiv real? Which of you have ever seen a Ukrainian? If we can't trust plane memes then we can't trust anything.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:26
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Randarkman posted:How do we know anything at all indeed? If the ghost isn't real, is Kyiv real? Which of you have ever seen a Ukrainian? Don't worry the ghost is real and no doubt off investigating the real conspiracy / cause of this war, ready to pop up at the end and destroy the Russian orbital bombardment platform.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:26
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Gripweed posted:I really hope Biden explains why America absolutely cannot become involved with this war tonight. The longer this goes on the greater support for American involvement will get OK how about not-Rasmussen, though?
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Mar 1, 2022 21:26
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I believe every tweet is real.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:26
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enigma74 posted:Punching holes in your tank's gas can is honestly the optimal nonviolent passive military protest everyone is looking for. They can then surrender, and get to chill out as a PoW in Latvia with full amnesty. They can avoid being a part of warcrimes, and maybe even repatriate back to Russia once this invasion is settled and things look better at home. That's a lot of wishful thinking that only makes sense if one assumes that all those soldiers are orphans and single. edit: The defection, chilling out, and returning part at least. Disabling one's vehicle to avoid doing war crimes and staying alive in order to eventually get back to a normal-ish life still applies though. Aramis fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 21:27
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1st_Panzer_Div. posted:The funding pre-war makes sense. We were actively training, supplying arms, & had some troops in the country. With a war under way, I don't see how we can do any of those things and wonder what the $600MM could be used for anything other than turning Ukraine into Afghanistan - which I see as an atrocity for all the people that will be impacted. If Russia wins, Ukraine turns into Afghanistan anyway, just with slightly less equipment. The money certainly helps the will to fight, but the money going away won't suddenly make a bunch of people who want to defend their homeland against a foreign imperialist suddenly lose the will to fight back. It's just instead of Javalins it'll be pipe bombs.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:27
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Josef bugman posted:Trying to be truthful isn't always necessary for the folks who are on ground, as it were, but going "so yeah it's all lies, but that can be good!" is weird. Is "we shouldn't lie to people" now baffling. Yeah case in point 2003 basically ruined the US/UK intelligence credibility for a whole generation - damaging right up until today. I suspect that realising that actually the US has spent the last three months consistently telling the truth has done a fair bit to recover that trust (see Rubio getting a partiaul rehabilitation for disseminating int briefings) and it should be pretty obvious that this will pay dividends in the next crisis because there will be far fewer people willing to doubt. There's advantages in sometimes being a bit coy and you obviously can't tell the whole truth all the time, but one of the simple lessons of countering Russian disinformation is that actually if you just tell the truth and stick to the truth then most people will end up going along with you.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:27
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Ukraine Twitter Account: hello we can confirm that the Ghost Of Kviv is real, an accomplished pilot whose family was killed by Russian separatists and now focuses all their energy into revenge. They wish to remain anonymous as he (or her!!  ) understand that they are just one of many amazing soldiers fighting for Ukraine!!Bing bang so simple
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Mar 1, 2022 21:27
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Kavros posted:Not what I'm saying. I'm pretty confident the Ghost is crowdsourced propaganda and a completely fictional tale, it's just interesting to me that it turns out that Russia's entire operation in Ukraine was the kind of outlier condition situation in which remarkable situations like that could have come about. Ok but what are you basing this conclusion on? What is remarkable about the situation that lets something get totally made up? Kavros posted:They largely don't happen anymore precisely because of the ways in which militaries know how to operate to protect their own air assets, but Russia was straight up all over the place in a peer war extended into Ukranian home turf, and their military systems were wildly unaware of the actual conditions. What are you basing the conclusion that they were all over the place? and if they were, why is this Russia's failure and not A) Ukraine's success and B) The nature of fighting a capable Air Force. I don't think we can expect the kind of air dominance and superiority the U.S. and its allied enjoyed in Afghanistan or Iraq in a true peer to peer conflict. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 21:28
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Gripweed posted:I really hope Biden explains why America absolutely cannot become involved with this war tonight. The longer this goes on the greater support for American involvement will get Flights landing near the theater are dirt cheap now. I also hear they are handing out weapons and ammo. There's NOTHING stopping anyone that wants to get involved. Don't loving run around though and basically point your finger and conscript other nations into fighting so that you can watch more loving twitter videos from your parents' basements. I'm so sick of this "OMG, someone needs to do something!" mentality. No ! ... YOU NEED TO GO DO SOMETHING!!! America has no skin in this game. Ukraine is plenty corrupt. The Oligarchy there chose money and power. They sold out the beautiful people of Ukraine. America has no business getting involved, beyond sending Red Cross aid. America will be involved in its own (civil) war before long anyhow. It's a shame these events have come to exist. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 1, 2022 21:29
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https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1498749341401554953?s=20&t=V-GeDgcBS6V1akANIe58sw
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Mar 1, 2022 21:29
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Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1498749341401554953?s=20&t=V-GeDgcBS6V1akANIe58sw Also to keep the wordle streak alive
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Mar 1, 2022 21:30
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Alchenar posted:There's advantages in sometimes being a bit coy and you obviously can't tell the whole truth all the time, but one of the simple lessons of countering Russian disinformation is that actually if you just tell the truth and stick to the truth then most people will end up going along with you. It doesn't help that the Fog of war seems to continually cause something that sounds big and momentous to not be very important real fast. I also don't think that I should trust the government on pretty much owt, and I doubt that this will change my view that much.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:30
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Mustard Iceman posted:OK how about not-Rasmussen, though? Rasmussen isn’t even that bad according to people who rate pollsters for accuracy: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/
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Mar 1, 2022 21:31
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Nenonen posted:... What wouldn't work is a SACLOS type ATGM like TOW or Konkurs, as the missiles carry a recognition beacon that the control unit follows to stay on track of the missile's position. And water surface reflects that light. For context, 1st_Panzer_Div., are you a pacifist? I'm not asking to be an rear end in a top hat, but to understand if that's the root of your objections.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:31
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:yes, the bulk of the refugees are not willing nor capable of fighting, nor should anyone expect them to. the problem is in assuming that the capable, trained reservist citizens of ukraine - men and women alike - who are taking up arms to defend themselves are only doing so because they've been fooled or brainwashed by propaganda. i think this is an overly ideological way of looking at human behavior in a vacuum, one which attempts to reconcile the disagreement between how people should behave versus how they are actually behaving. it dismisses the human tendency to defend their communities with violence if necessary. if a right wing militia started kicking over trash cans in your neighborhood and threatening people at gunpoint, would you simply do nothing? This is a fair point, when it happened in my neighborhood I did not stand by, but I didn't resort to violence - simply peaceful protesting. If they had started to actually attack my neighbors though I wouldn't have been as passive. The Ukrainian people are looking at more dire consequences than my personal experiences and many of them probably do want to fight. I still think propaganda is having a sizable influence on how many, and how extreme people are willing to get. CSPAM had some responsibility in radicalizing the antifa shooter to move beyond protests and into actually shooting someone. Yes - the individual was primarily to blame. But CSPAM contributed. The current Ukrainian propaganda is significantly more impactful & orchestrated than a sub that includes a lot of shitposting.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:32
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Mustard Iceman posted:OK how about not-Rasmussen, though? Here's one saying 62% of Americans think we should be doing "more". Whatever that means. https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...military-action
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Mar 1, 2022 21:32
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If anyone wants to listen on some Russian Military Shortwave traffic right now I have some sources for you! Website with tuners and frequency list: https://www.russianwarchatter.info/ It also has recordings of transmissions from the last few days Twitter thread of frequencies if you prefer to roll your own listening experience: https://twitter.com/MelvinBGlobal/status/1498734017268658179?t=9BSQiogXCLpGzlicGWsvSw&s=19
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Mar 1, 2022 21:34
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1st_Panzer_Div. posted:I still think propaganda is having a sizable influence on how many, and how extreme people are willing to get. CSPAM had some responsibility in radicalizing the antifa shooter to move beyond protests and into actually shooting someone. Yes - the individual was primarily to blame. But CSPAM contributed. The current Ukrainian propaganda is significantly more impactful & orchestrated than a sub that includes a lot of shitposting. i dont think you can compare encouragement of political violence in CSPAM, an internet message board, versus the communal identity of ukraine, a people bound by a common language, cultural symbols, and a desire for self-defense. one is a community of people who make jokes about politics with strangers on the internet and the other is forty million individuals with a thousand year historical legacy little apples and oranges to me imo Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 21:34
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Gripweed posted:I really hope Biden explains why America absolutely cannot become involved with this war tonight. The longer this goes on the greater support for American involvement will get Love the phrasing on this, let's get this party started!!! Can't wait for the Americans to escalate, atrocities to ensue, China to lol and march up Russia's rear end and Americans to never shut up about how they saved Europe again. /stupid bullshit Scaramouche posted:Clive Cussler chat  Dirk Pitt himself posts on these very forums
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Mar 1, 2022 21:35
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Alchenar posted:Yeah case in point 2003 basically ruined the US/UK intelligence credibility for a whole generation - damaging right up until today. I suspect that realising that actually the US has spent the last three months consistently telling the truth has done a fair bit to recover that trust (see Rubio getting a partiaul rehabilitation for disseminating int briefings) and it should be pretty obvious that this will pay dividends in the next crisis because there will be far fewer people willing to doubt. I do hope that lesson hasn't been lost on Rubio in particular, and the remaining sane Republicans in general, but I fear otherwise.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:36
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Ynglaur posted:Thanks. I never actually knew why TOW didn't work over water. I just knew they didn't. Nothing to do with reflection. It's just that the missiles generally bob and weave and if you are shooting some feet above water it might just land in water.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:38
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Aramis posted:That's a lot of wishful thinking that only makes sense if one assumes that all those soldiers are orphans and single. I think it works even if you're not a single orphan. Even if you were a dad of a young child, or had dependent parents, I'm sure your family and friends would rather see you alive in 10 years than missing forever because your corpse was cremated anonymously by the Russian mobile incinerators. Or, shipped back in a body bag with $100 worth of rubles in compensation. Edit: I don't seriously think most soldiers are going to be able to take this offer, especially if their commanding officer is a loyalist nutjob who shoots dissenters. But making surrender comfortable and cushy is a win-win situation. And, at worse the Ukrainian army could use a few extra authentic Russian uniforms if they intend on engaging in partisan warfare. enigma74 fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 1, 2022 |
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Mar 1, 2022 21:38
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spacetoaster posted:Here's one saying 62% of Americans think we should be doing "more". Whatever that means. Still only at 42% favoring direct military action... very different from the 29% shown on the CBS poll that came out today
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Mar 1, 2022 21:39
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mdemone posted:"I will kill him to the dick!" This reminds me of a book a few years ago that was sold in Russia as a compilation of all of Putin's best quotes. quote:Among memorable quotes selected are Putin's threat to "rub out" Chechen militants in the "out house", his contested assertion that Crimea was always and remains an "inseparable" part of Russia, and a bizarre brush-off of Latvia in which he told Riga it could only expect to receive "the ears of a dead donkey" from Moscow, a Russian expression for nothing. I'm going to start telling my boss they'll only get the ears of a dead donkey out of me.
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Mar 1, 2022 21:40
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KitConstantine posted:In other news, with all the crypto donations going to Ukraine I was worried I would have to stop hating everyone involved in that loving terrible industry. Thank God such a nightmare was not allowed to become real This didn't get much attention earlier, but I do hope cryptofuckers will stick to their guns and decide to offer a way for pariah states to bypass sanctions put in place by much of the world. In a gently caress around and find out sort of way.
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