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Yeah I mean it kind of sucks he is saying this stuff, but would honestly prefer Fox News chuds hear this sort of thing over the blatant Russian propaganda from Tucker.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:44
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Thom12255 posted:Wasn't it Chinese tires that ruined the Russians trucks. There's some contention, they may be Belarussian made.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:44
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Bholder posted:Both prolongs the conflict so in the point of view of minimizing civilian casualties, not really.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:45
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As if you needed any more proof a NFZ is a terrible idea.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:45
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steinrokkan posted:Poland probably isn't an entirely lost cause, and at least there are cultural and historical ties, but with Hungary... there really isn't a good reason not to distance themselves from Orbán. Now with this war and the Fidesz govt trying to play both sides, perhaps even the Poles could see that. Poland is also far more important economically and politically than Hungary, for the EU as a whole. Hopefully we will see a resurgence of less nationalistic and more liberal minded political parties there, because it would be very beneficial for Europe.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:45
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Bholder posted:Both prolongs the conflict so in the point of view of minimizing civilian casualties, not really. The conflict ends when Russia stops invading and/or occupying Ukraine. Weapons delivered to Ukraine do not prolong the conflict. They shorten it. This is not a symmetrical conflict. Civilian casualties will not cease if Ukraine gives up. Civilian casualties will cease if Russia gives up.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This assumes civilian casualties would stop if Russia "won" the war. I mean thanks to all the weapons there will be a foreverwar in Ukrain against rebel factions even if Russia takes over the country, so sure.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:48
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What's putting China in a difficult space is not just that Russia started an unpopular war of imperialist aggression; it's that that Russia is doing a lovely job and it would make Xi look stupid for supporting a weak, fallen power in a foolhardy venture. Russia has no means of winning this war in the long term. The only thing China could give Russia that would make any material difference is putting the entire Russian economy on life support, something that would be enormously expensive for China both monetarily and diplomatically.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:49
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Bholder posted:I mean thanks to all the weapons there will be a foreverwar in Ukrain against rebel factions even if Russia takes over the country, so sure. Given that the places Russia has taken, they are straight up black bagging people and have openly said the plan was to 'round up people on lists' I don't think Russia being allowed to win is going to result in a sudden decrease in civilian casualties.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:51
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Bholder posted:Both prolongs the conflict so in the point of view of minimizing civilian casualties, not really. Bholder posted:I mean thanks to all the weapons there will be a foreverwar in Ukrain against rebel factions even if Russia takes over the country, so sure. This logic leads to an inevitable conclusion of "more powerful aggressors should always be supported in wars" which is a self-evidently morally repugnant point of view.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:51
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Bholder posted:Both prolongs the conflict so in the point of view of minimizing civilian casualties, not really. What is this poo poo? You know what guarantees civilian casualties? The idea that if you start a war of aggression you'll be backed up by more lethal weapons from the global community for some stupid loving reason. You know what actually cuts down on civilian casualties? The idea that if you are a leader and you start an unpopular war you risk a very real possibility of some subset of your population trying to cut your head off with a chainsaw.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:52
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Bholder posted:I mean thanks to all the weapons there will be a foreverwar in Ukrain against rebel factions even if Russia takes over the country, so sure. To be clear here, you are one of the people arguing from the viewpoint of "Ukraine is in the wrong because they should have just surrendered as soon as Russia invaded" correct? Because you keep dancing around that point.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:52
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That Italian Guy posted:How easy would it be to detect Chinese weaponry/tech in case a non-disclosed help to Russia was to take place? Specifically regarding remains from Chinese munitions/rockets that could be recovered and analyzed. Is there a big overlap in tech? Or is China using their own distinct stuff? I doubt it's relevant really, I find it hard to believe that Russia is immediately running out of anything. Asking at this point for China to give them some weapons would mean delivery in... who knows, but it would probably take at least a few weeks, depending on what they want and how quick China would respond. My guess is they are planning ahead instead of reacting to an acute shortage of bombs. I wonder what the current condition of Russia's arms industry is. It is a strong sector but just how independent of outside suppliers are they?
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Mar 13, 2022 21:54
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I've been mulling this over the past couple days and I honestly believe that some of you people are so, so so god drat white that you just don't understand what happens to people in conquered lands especially when concepts of race and culture are being tossed around.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:55
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headspace posted:Yeah I mean it kind of sucks he is saying this stuff, but would honestly prefer Fox News chuds hear this sort of thing over the blatant Russian propaganda from Tucker. We don't need Graham telling people that a NFZ would actually be fine and that Putin won't escalate over the U.S. shooting down Russian planes
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Mar 13, 2022 21:55
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Getting strong don't look up vibes from the talk of running a no fly zone and going "Putin won't do it!"
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Mar 13, 2022 21:56
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Bholder posted:Both prolongs the conflict so in the point of view of minimizing civilian casualties, not really.  Also only one of the parties is actively bombing civilians. Nice bothsidesing, moron.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:56
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Nenonen posted:I wonder what the current condition of Russia's arms industry is. It is a strong sector but just how independent of outside suppliers are they? They couldn’t make (modern) tanks due to sanctions before the current escalation. Right now they probably can’t make half the stuff that flies, and anything that requires sophisticated optics or electronics.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:56
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Nenonen posted:I doubt it's relevant really, I find it hard to believe that Russia is immediately running out of anything. Asking at this point for China to give them some weapons would mean delivery in... who knows, but it would probably take at least a few weeks, depending on what they want and how quick China would respond. My guess is they are planning ahead instead of reacting to an acute shortage of bombs. Even prior to the war, their arms industry depended on a lot of imports, especially for electronics and optics, I doubt that's going to change. And that's before you get to the corruption in the arms supply chain and logistics that they suffered from prior to and during the invasion.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:57
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Getting strong don't look up vibes from the talk of running a no fly zone and going "Putin won't do it!" Ah yes the critically acclaimed netflix film look up
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Mar 13, 2022 21:58
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Nenonen posted:I doubt it's relevant really, I find it hard to believe that Russia is immediately running out of anything. Asking at this point for China to give them some weapons would mean delivery in... who knows, but it would probably take at least a few weeks, depending on what they want and how quick China would respond. My guess is they are planning ahead instead of reacting to an acute shortage of bombs. They could well be running out of trucks. It seems like they kicked off the war with insufficient trucks and Ukraine is doing everything it can to make it worse. The videos of trainloads of civilian vehicles would seem to support this.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:58
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HolHorsejob posted:What's putting China in a difficult space is not just that Russia started an unpopular war of imperialist aggression; it's that that Russia is doing a lovely job and it would make Xi look stupid for supporting a weak, fallen power in a foolhardy venture. I imagine that China's priority would be a quick end to the war since the impact on the global economy is going to hit them too. Russia is the only party in this war that wants it to continue at the moment so helping them would seem to be against their own interests. It seems it would make little difference to them what happens to Ukraine itself and no matter what the Russian economy will be crippled.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:58
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Thanks all re: Financial Times, I’ve read them before for non-war topics but wasn’t sure how reliable their war reporting was. Telsa Cola posted:I've been mulling this over the past couple days and I honestly believe that some of you people are so, so so god drat white that you just don't understand what happens to people in conquered lands especially when concepts of race and culture are being tossed around. Not trying to be antagonistic, but who is this directed to? I feel like this thread has been mostly good in terms of understanding the risks that Ukrainians have in occupied areas or if the country were occupied itself. It seems more like a mindset that is based elsewhere that keeps making its way occasionally into the thread by a few infrequent visitors.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:01
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Mokotow posted:They are connected very closely both geographically and economically, OP. As a Czech, I am closer to Germany than Hungary geographically and economically, to say nothing of Hungary's and Poland's hosed up politics. 
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Mar 13, 2022 22:02
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Bholder posted:I mean thanks to all the weapons there will be a foreverwar in Ukrain against rebel factions even if Russia takes over the country, so sure. Ah we’re back to the drive by trolls spouting the ‘Ukraine should just save themselves the hassle, roll over and die’ argument. Again. China has so far been diplomatically fence sitting, supplying a failing Russia would definitely be ‘picking a side’ but i’m sure they realise there would be economic consequences of aligning themselves as opposing the EU and USA.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:04
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Mulva posted:I wonder where this mindset came from. Where people are so desperate to not engage because it could mean total global thermonuclear war and the end of everything. What, you don't think Russians have people like that too? You think we couldn't just drop a nuke on Moscow and say "We will absolutely destroy every single person on the planet if you dare to try anything but total surrender right now." because they'd just all line up to kill themselves? Why? Would you? Why do you think Russians are especially deranged? because the decision making process isn't done by "russians" but by a chain of specific people that aren't necessarily rational, and even if all of them are rational, then the calculus of the situation may lead rational people to an irrational conclusion. it's still unlikely but considering the outcome it's just never worth the risk. to be explicit about the risk: it would mean everyone you've ever known who's still alive dying of either being blown up, or the effects of radiation, or starvation, and a good part of the earth's biosphere just dying off. that's why the risk shouldn't even be touched. i'm surprised people have a hard time understanding this
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Mar 13, 2022 22:05
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SourKraut posted:It seems more like a mindset that is based elsewhere that keeps making its way occasionally into the thread by a few infrequent visitors. Leaving aside that Ukraine seems to be resisting successfully; even if in three weeks Putin reveals the implied Second, Good Army who will come in and win; Zelensky and everyone have bought educated people, queer people, anti-Russian dissident people, time to get the gently caress out of Ukraine.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:08
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Telsa Cola posted:I've been mulling this over the past couple days and I honestly believe that some of you people are so, so so god drat white that you just don't understand what happens to people in conquered lands especially when concepts of race and culture are being tossed around. Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? Like the bombings are bad enough, we don't need to pretend they are going full holocaust as well... ImpAtom posted:To be clear here, you are one of the people arguing from the viewpoint of "Ukraine is in the wrong because they should have just surrendered as soon as Russia invaded" correct? Because you keep dancing around that point. no, but let us lie to ourselves that just giving them weapons, patting them in the back and say "beat the russians for us" and expect everything to go well for them is incredibly naive.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:08
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Bholder posted:no, but let us lie to ourselves that just giving them weapons, patting them in the back and say "beat the russians for us" and expect everything to go well for them is incredibly naive. You're totally right, if you spot someone saying that be sure to let them know
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Mar 13, 2022 22:10
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? An incredible case of terminal American brain Many such cases - sad!
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Mar 13, 2022 22:11
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Xarn posted:As a Czech, I am closer to Germany than Hungary geographically and economically, to say nothing of Hungary's and Poland's hosed up politics. Heck, same here, but I dare say we’re hardly representative.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:11
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? 
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Mar 13, 2022 22:11
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Nessus posted:The attitude of 'submit to an invader because they will surely win anyway, so fighting back just means you get two rounds of devastation instead of one,' has a sort of implicit angle where this is perhaps true of "the invaded nation, as an entity," but is very much less true for, for instance, minority groups the invader disapproves of. 
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Mar 13, 2022 22:14
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? i see you have very little understanding of european history where we have been killing each other every few decades for centuries. edit: wait i think i'm underestimating the timespan, it might be all of known european history instead
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Mar 13, 2022 22:14
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SpiritOfLenin posted:i see you have very little understanding of european history where we have been killing each other every few decades for centuries. Again, war and straight up pogroms are two very different things
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Mar 13, 2022 22:16
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? I am genuinely curious who you think the Nazis were killing because it wasn't people from a wildly different country with a different skin color in many cases.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:18
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steinrokkan posted:Poland probably isn't an entirely lost cause, and at least there are cultural and historical ties, but with Hungary... there really isn't a good reason not to distance themselves from Orbán. Now with this war and the Fidesz govt trying to play both sides, perhaps even the Poles could see that. I want to say that we will surprise you guys by kicking out Orban and Fidesz on April 3rd... but I don't believe it myself. Will go and vote against them all the same.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:18
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Bholder posted:no, but let us lie to ourselves that just giving them weapons, patting them in the back and say "beat the russians for us" and expect everything to go well for them is incredibly naive. A poor argument, but one nonetheless, for the West doing much more, which is Ukraine's plea.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:19
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? I... Are you saying the victims of the Holocaust did not have cultural ties to Germany? Or would of been considered European?
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Mar 13, 2022 22:19
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https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503108437642821638 https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503109102012182533 guess is the deal won’t go anywhere.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:20
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