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The way Scott always put it was the he knew that he was bulletproof and a loss to Kid would make his career. He did the same thing with a very young Tanahashi in Japan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1YeYXBiB7g
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Mar 16, 2022 05:50
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I think the WWF also wanted to have someone have a surprise win like that, especially in Raw's early period- makes it seem fresh and wild and like anything can happen. It is very cool in that context, the show's had a bunch of jobber matches so far so you get set up for another one *but wait*!
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Mar 16, 2022 07:56
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What was the timeframe between the 123 Kid winning against Razor and HOROWITZ WINS?
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Mar 16, 2022 08:23
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Wise Fwom Yo Gwave posted:What was the timeframe between the 123 Kid winning against Razor and HOROWITZ WINS? Mid-93, mid-95
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Mar 16, 2022 09:06
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Shard posted:The way Scott always put it was the he knew that he was bulletproof and a loss to Kid would make his career. He did the same thing with a very young Tanahashi in Japan. God I've heard the story but never actually watched the match, that is such a perfect moment, and the hubris combined with his final words is 
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Mar 16, 2022 10:25
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Was there a basis for the names "Holy Demon Army" and "Miracle Violence Connection?" They seem so grandiose for a promotion that wasn't big on theatrical gimmicks and outside-the-ring storytelling. Did the names refer to each of their members, like I'm supposed to parse that one is holy and one demonic, or one violent and one miraculous? Or do they just stand on their own? As mentioned previously, the Holy Demon army was a pun on the name ”Seikigun”. The use in english IWC stems from the era of approximation/machine translations being the norm. Miracle Violence Connection is more simpler, since the team of Gordy and Williams were referred to as such on commentary. It wasn’t their team name, but the NTV commentator Fukuzawa loved to throw english nicknames for wrestlers constantly.
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Mar 16, 2022 11:02
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Jerusalem posted:God I've heard the story but never actually watched the match, that is such a perfect moment, and the hubris combined with his final words is yeah, "this is gonna be you" the literal second he gets rolled up is just an impeccable wrestling slapstick joke. I love it.
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Mar 16, 2022 11:31
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FakePoet posted:I know the internet was still in its relative infancy (from my barely-teenage, wrestling fan perspective anyway); was Waltman known in those circles the way someone like...I don't know, Nick Wayne is? Not at the same age, necessarily. Waltman had done some great stuff in Global before coming to WWF. His matches with Jerry Lynn are basically the prototype for modern indie wrestling. Those matches certainly made the rounds on the tape trading circuit. Not sure how widely known he was, but the hardcore smarks would have certainly known who he was, at the very least. I bet looking back at the Observers from around that time would shed some light on it.
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Mar 16, 2022 12:54
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If Waltman had shown up in ECW then he'd have done fine because that crowd paid attention to that sort of thing (plus he was excellent)
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Mar 16, 2022 13:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think the WWF also wanted to have someone have a surprise win like that, especially in Raw's early period- makes it seem fresh and wild and like anything can happen. It is very cool in that context, the show's had a bunch of jobber matches so far so you get set up for another one *but wait*! It also happened during the same episode where Marty Jannetty randomly showed up, goaded Michaels into an IC title match and won. Back then, it came off as the most unpredictable episode of wrestling ever.
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Mar 16, 2022 13:59
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FakePoet posted:I know the internet was still in its relative infancy (from my barely-teenage, wrestling fan perspective anyway); was Waltman known in those circles the way someone like...I don't know, Nick Wayne is? Not at the same age, necessarily. Can't speak for others at the time, but before Waltman came to the WWF, PWI and its sister publications were very high on him and made sure to tout him. It was also funny how when he first debuted in the WWF, in his first couple of matches, he'd have a different moniker (The Comet Kid, The Comeback Kid, etc)
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Mar 16, 2022 14:14
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Davros1 posted:Can't speak for others at the time, but before Waltman came to the WWF, PWI and its sister publications were very high on him and made sure to tout him. I was only 7 at the time, I knew him because of this. I wasn’t on the internet or reading the Observer, but I read all the Apter mags. Despite the fact that he was a name I knew, I still totally bought into him just being a jobber and was shocked when he got the win.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:35
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Waltman and Lynn had a lot of buzz in the dirt sheets and very early internet because of their series in Global.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:38
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From the 1993 Observers:quote:Lightning Kid was hired and started at the 4/26 Raw losing in a squash submission fashion twice to Doink the Clown (not sure if it was different Doinks in the two matches) without getting any offense in. The Manhattan fans reacted surprisingly big when he came out with his name on his trunks since it's a hardcore audience, but that fact will have to be ignored when it airs on television 5/3 since he got squashed and got no offense in and was supposed to be just another faceless unknown jobber. It looks like Kid will be a babyface and be both the youngest (20) and lightest wrestler (est. 200) to get a push in WWF probably in more than a decade. He'll start as a regular after his June New Japan tour. quote:Lightning Kid will be using the name Kamikaze Kid, which is the name they billed him as in his debut getting squashed by Doink the Clown. That is definitely a unique method of pushing someone. quote:Lightning Kid was on Raw again 5/10, this time using the name Cannonball Kid and got squashed with no offense against Hughes, who is now managed by Harvey Whippleman. quote:Sean Waltman, this time simply wrestling as "The Kid," scored the first jobber upset in WWF history (I've been waiting seven years to see someone introduce a new star in this manner) by pinning Razor Ramon. It was set up as the typical squash with Kid selling every move big, and after Ramon missed a move, Kid did a moonsault bodyblock off the top rope for the pin. Waltman, who had worked as Kamikaze Kid and Cannonball Kid on the previous two shows in doing
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Mar 16, 2022 14:41
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Jobbers always get wins with surprise moves like that, show me a jobber who got a win by absolutely dominating their non-jobber opponent.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:49
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Jobbers always get wins with surprise moves like that, show me a jobber who got a win by absolutely dominating their non-jobber opponent. Abadon.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:55
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I remember liking the name Lightning/Cannonball Kid way better. Even when I was young I thought "1-2-3 Kid" was a stupid rename, because now instead of being fast as lightning or a cannonball, his character was now "capable of a pin".harperdc posted:*extremely deep Vince McMahon belly laugh*
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Mar 16, 2022 16:16
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I know it's been discussed to death, but was anyone besides Vince aware of what was going to come out of the egg at Survivor Series '90? Mean Gene is speechless when he's normally very quick, Piper can't stop laughing incredulously, and Gorilla just keeps asking "What is it?!"
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Mar 16, 2022 16:19
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I'm fairly certain Okerlund knew. He might not have seen the costume ahead of time, but they at least told him the name before he interviewed... it. What are some examples of "no wasted motion" wrestlers? Frankie Kazarian comes to mind, but I've heard that term thrown around for a long time, as well as wrestlers who have a "precision" style.
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Mar 16, 2022 16:54
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sticklefifer posted:I'm fairly certain Okerlund knew. He might not have seen the costume ahead of time, but they at least told him the name before he interviewed... it. Regal. He's the 1st person I think of when I hear that term.
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Mar 16, 2022 17:02
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Jobbers always get wins with surprise moves like that, show me a jobber who got a win by absolutely dominating their non-jobber opponent. Goldberg
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Mar 16, 2022 17:33
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MassRafTer posted:Waltman and Lynn had a lot of buzz in the dirt sheets and very early internet because of their series in Global. Tangentially, Global's also the first time I saw Horowitz win and he also had some baller matches with Lynn.
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Mar 16, 2022 18:49
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Was the gimmick of jobber upset to underdog face planned for Waltman? Like did they sign him as a young prospect knowing the 123 kid arc of lose a couple matches while looking better than a real jobber and then upset someone good to start his “real” career was in the works? Or did they just want a jobber upset and Kid/Razor just happened to be there and willing to do it and it turned out well so they ran with it?
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Mar 16, 2022 20:02
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sticklefifer posted:
Barry Windham
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Mar 16, 2022 20:50
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pseudodragon posted:Was the gimmick of jobber upset to underdog face planned for Waltman? Like did they sign him as a young prospect knowing the 123 kid arc of lose a couple matches while looking better than a real jobber and then upset someone good to start his “real” career was in the works? quote:I knew probably a month beforehand, if I had to guess, because Vince and Pat called me and laid the whole thing out in detail, and it’s exactly how it ended up going. They had this thing all mapped out. And According to Scott Hall on the Steve Austin podcast, the whole outline of the Razor/Dibiase/1-2-3 Kid double turn storyline was pitched to him months before they even hired Waltman, with the implication they slotted Waltman into their plans once they found/saw him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQXGqApTAs0&t=383s
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Mar 17, 2022 00:17
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The Big-E neckbreak spot got me thinking someone explain bookers to me - I get it (at least WWE style, I think) - they lay out the match for the wrestlers -- so they're the ones who put this spot in. The wrestlers knowing its not really safe (i assume) - but sounds like they don't got a choice without going off script and pissing off Vince. Also these bookers are usually just lovely old wrestlers who were never really anything (generally) -- names I'm thinking are Road Dogg, Tyson Kidd, D'von, Billy Kidman, Kendrick, Helms. Etc - not to mention the old ones who are dead. It seems like just a way to keep the old boys club together - and these guys are dead set it's still 1980's and wresttling should be the same.... It seems the best wrestling is when the wrestlers put the match together with eachother (with help of a (good) veteran... like AEW has with Arn, Sting, Jericho, etc) or hell even on the fly like some of the real pro's do. I think Bret was famous for this, Macho - the complete opposite. I guess I don't know what I'm getting at, I just feel its the reason WWE is complete poo poo now - everything is exactly the same, whereas AEW every single match highlights both wrestlers, regardless who wins by showing their strength, and very little of their weakness. I think WWE could easily be fixed- fire all writers/bookers, let the wrestlers write their feuds and put together their matches. - I guarentee it would make the show watchable (if Cole/Dunn are also sent to the abyss). I hope KO/Sami got some sort of creative control along with their poo poo LOAD OF MONEY, but even if they didn't - get that money.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:28
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Hirez posted:The Big-E neckbreak spot got me thinking someone explain bookers to me - I get it (at least WWE style, I think) - they lay out the match for the wrestlers -- so they're the ones who put this spot in. The wrestlers knowing its not really safe (i assume) - but sounds like they don't got a choice without going off script and pissing off Vince. you're confusing the booker, the person who decides who wrestles who and who goes over, with road agents, the people who lay out the match and give the wrestlers their spots in wwe
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Mar 17, 2022 03:31
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Traditionally the booker decides the outcome and usually some details of the finish (as well as the length obviously), and there's also a road agent who takes those notes to the wrestlers and helps them work out the rest. I'm not sure how much this holds in the era of cell phones and Zoom where everyone can just, you know, talk to each other wherever they are, but the road agent is generally credited with/blamed for how much of the match goes.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:32
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Road dogg and Tyson Kidd were both absolutely something in different aspects of the business stopped reading that post there. E: ok I read more also, no, Billy Kidman, Brian kendrick, and Shane helms probably do not think it’s still the eighties. 0konner fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 10:29
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Hirez posted:Also these bookers are usually just lovely old wrestlers who were never really anything (generally) -- names I'm thinking are Road Dogg, Tyson Kidd, D'von, Billy Kidman, Kendrick, Helms. Etc Literally every person on that list is a multi time singles and tag champion in WCW/WWE
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Mar 17, 2022 12:30
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Hirez posted:Also these bookers are usually just lovely old wrestlers who were never really anything (generally) -- names I'm thinking are Road Dogg, Tyson Kidd, D'von, Billy Kidman, Kendrick, Helms. Etc - not to mention the old ones who are dead. It seems like just a way to keep the old boys club together - and these guys are dead set it's still 1980's and wresttling should be the same.... Don't lump Tyson Kidd in with the rest of those chucklefucks. Dude knows what he's doing and has been the agent for a great deal of the better women's matches in the company in recent memory. A lot of the women's roster has talked about how much they like working with him and how well he does.
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Mar 17, 2022 12:50
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tyson was real fun paired with cesaro before his freak injury and I'm still shocked the dude can move around even if it was too much to ask to see him back in the ring
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Mar 17, 2022 17:02
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Hirez posted:names I'm thinking are Road Dogg, Tyson Kidd, D'von, Billy Kidman, Kendrick, Helms. What a weird rear end take sitting in here. Kidman and Helms where effectively carrying the work rate for WCW even before the ship was known to have sunk, Road Dogg and D'Von where one half of possibly the top five tag teams in the history of WWE and certainly in the running for top twenty tag teams ever, and Kendrick had a respectable tag run and from what I remember a pretty fun main event smack down run. If any of that translates to being able to agent a match for someone else is another question entirely, but to minimize those guys' careers as "lovely old wrestlers who never did anything" is hilarious. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 17:15
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Hirez posted:The Big-E neckbreak spot got me thinking someone explain bookers to me - I get it (at least WWE style, I think) - they lay out the match for the wrestlers -- so they're the ones who put this spot in. The wrestlers knowing its not really safe (i assume) - but sounds like they don't got a choice without going off script and pissing off Vince. When I look at Brian Kendrick and Billy Kidman I see guys dead set on keeping wrestling the way it was in the 80s. And when I look at Tyson Kidd I see a lovely old wrestler.
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Mar 17, 2022 18:14
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there are dozens of spots on every card and usually more than that where somebody could break their neck if the people didn't do it right
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Mar 17, 2022 18:21
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MassRafTer posted:When I look at Brian Kendrick and Billy Kidman I see guys dead set on keeping wrestling the way it was in the 80s. ‘88 specifically for Kendrick.
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Mar 17, 2022 18:47
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Was it Fit Finlay that got fired because The Miz interrupted the national anthem for heat at a house show and the armed forces dudes got all riled up about it?
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Mar 17, 2022 20:04
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Was it Fit Finlay that got fired because The Miz interrupted the national anthem for heat at a house show and the armed forces dudes got all riled up about it? Yep. He was effectively in charge and took the fall. He got brought back though.
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Mar 17, 2022 20:16
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FakePoet posted:I know the internet was still in its relative infancy (from my barely-teenage, wrestling fan perspective anyway); was Waltman known in those circles the way someone like...I don't know, Nick Wayne is? Not at the same age, necessarily. So for the year between GWF and WWF runs, he was pretty much an indie wrestler with above-average name value. He did get a WCW tryout right as he left the GWF, but presumably because it was right as Bill Watts—who clearly didn't see the value in the Pillman/Liger-centered version of the light heavyweight division—took over the company, he didn't get signed. He did another pair of tours for Universal Lucha Libre (colloquially "Hamada's UWF") in Japan, where he had started working in January, but other than that, his most high-profile work was some scattered dates for Dennis Coralluzzo. He did work the 1993 Top of the Super Junior tournament for NJPW, but it was something he committed to before signing to the WWF and he was in Japan as the Razor storyline was ongoing. (They even acknowledged it on Raw, having Waltman call in from the Japanese tour to respond to Razor's rematch challenges.) Maybe he could have become an NJPW regular, I dunno, but you can see why he signed with the WWF given the storyline pitch he got.
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Mar 18, 2022 02:40
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davidbix posted:He had become an underground favorite in late '89-early '91 as tapes of his early matches with Jerry Lynn circulated, and then, when Joe Pedicino's GWF finally launched in June '91, both of them were hired to anchor the light heavyweight division. With the GWF on ESPN multiple days a week and also replacing USWA Challenge (previously WCCW) in syndication, it had a pretty decent audience, so they (especially Waltman, the more spectacular of the two as well as the stronger character) picked up a lot of steam. But when the GWF cut costs and stopped flying in the non-Texas-based wrestlers, they were gone. Aside from a blink and you'll miss it stint in Tony Mara's short-lived NAWA on SportsChannel America (which was in a lot less homes than ESPN and the like). Tangentially the BTS special on Global was fascinating. When you start with a 'Nigerian investor' or whatever it was you know you're in for a wild ride.
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Mar 18, 2022 22:40
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