|
Well I would post 500 pages And I would post 500 more Just to be the goon who posts 1000 pages about this Ukraine war
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 21:20 |
|
|
I wonder how much Trump's first impeachment affected Ukrainian defense efforts, either positively or negatively. With the war happening now we can clearly see the immense value of the Javelins that come from US weapons aid. Trump's first impeachment over cutting off those Javelin shipments to Ukraine in exchange for dirt on Biden's kid brought a LOT of attention to the necessity of the Ukrainian arms shipments both politically and among the general public who by and large was unaware we were doing anything and didn't really care. As a result of this arms shipments were spotlighted and iirc even increased afterwards through Biden's administration. I wonder if this war would be looking different if Trump hadn't been caught shaking down Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:37
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I mean, most of the corridors succeed and some end up breaking down immediately. Your guess is as good as mine as to why. It is not true that "whenever Russia guarantees a corridor" it gets blown up or attacked, in fact that is the minority of the time. Dude, the one factor that is in all of these corridors 'breaking down' is Russia. So it's not hard to figure out who is responsible, since it is their gimmick in multiple wars.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:40
|
|
|
1000 pages in and the world thought this conflict would be over in 50 pages or less..
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:44
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:Kyiv Independent so grain of salt... with all the anecdotes about ukrainian's calling their russian relatives to let them know they're displaced because of the violence and their relatives responding with "that's fake news", i kind of doubt that random social media popups will move the needle a single inch
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:45
|
|
|
Kchama posted:Dude, the one factor that is in all of these corridors 'breaking down' is Russia. So it's not hard to figure out who is responsible, since it is their gimmick in multiple wars. I don't really understand what you're arguing. Are you disputing that most of the corridors have been successful or not? That is the only thing I'm talking about, not who is responsible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:46
|
|
|
Kchama posted:Dude, the one factor that is in all of these corridors 'breaking down' is Russia. So it's not hard to figure out who is responsible, since it is their gimmick in multiple wars. this is a joke
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:46
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:1000 pages in and the world thought this conflict would be over in 50 pages or less.. First 50 pages was abour how media warmongering was making poo poo up and an invasion would never happen
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:47
|
|
|
The disinformation campaign in this conflict is just so markedly insane. Especially the fact that literal one generation difference and people are in complete disbelief and also believe that their relatives are lying. When they mention that they've been bombed or evacuated. That's a crazy level of State control on information and education. I mean it is absolutely at this point revealed to be completely comparable to North Korea in the level of thought control. The Russian security apparatus and the massively corrupt political system must create a steady flow of mindless drones to do their ultra capitalist bidding.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:47
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I don't really understand what you're arguing. Are you disputing that most of the corridors have been successful or not? That is the only thing I'm talking about, not who is responsible. He wasn't addressing that, dumbass. Just your statement that you simply cannot guess why they fail when they do
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:48
|
|
|
Ukraine has declined to the surrender of Mariupol request. They will be remembered as heroes of the ukrainian fight against the Nazi menace.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I don't really understand what you're arguing. Are you disputing that most of the corridors have been successful or not? I'm disputing the idea that Russia's 'humanitarian corridors' can be trusted and that it was never them who caused them to 'break down'. You literally argued when they were first being offered that it was probably the Chechens who 'caused the corridors to break down' back then, and now you're saying you figure it is other Ukrainians. Why is it never Russia's fault? Also I'm trying to think of any of the RUSSIAN corridors that actually succeeded that weren't literal kidnappings.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
Victis posted:He wasn't addressing that, dumbass. Just your statement that you simply cannot guess why they fail when they do Russia is at all the corridors! Otherwise you wouldn't need a corridor! So I said I don't know why some corridors fail and others succeed because even if you think Russia is deliberately targeting them, they clearly do not target most of them! So, why? I merely speculated that the People's Republic forces are most likely to break the ceasefires.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:50
|
|
|
Feliday Melody posted:Yes, but there must have been so many people to explain the Ukrainian animosity to Russian rule. Sorry I know this is like fifty pages back, but what really gets me about the “Ukrainian army will greet us as brothers” argument is the unspoken asymmetry. Obviously the person saying that doesn’t think Russian troops will refuse to invade their brothers. In fact there is an unspoken assumption that if the Ukrainians don’t do the brotherly thing then Russia’s army will happily engage in a disciplined slaughter of their brother-enemies. But apparently that only goes one way?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The disinformation campaign in this conflict is just so markedly insane. Especially the fact that literal one generation difference and people are in complete disbelief and also believe that their relatives are lying. When they mention that they've been bombed or evacuated. That's a crazy level of State control on information and education. I mean it is absolutely at this point revealed to be completely comparable to North Korea in the level of thought control. The Russian security apparatus and the massively corrupt political system must create a steady flow of mindless drones to do their ultra capitalist bidding.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
Kchama posted:I'm disputing the idea that Russia's 'humanitarian corridors' can be trusted and that it was never them who caused them to 'break down'. You literally argued when they were first being offered that it was probably the Chechens who 'caused the corridors to break down' back then, and now you're saying you figure it is other Ukrainians. Why is it never Russia's fault? I never said anything about Chechens? And regardless, Russia is responsible for the People's Republic guys so if they broke the ceasefire, that would be Russia's fault. It's not like they aren't inviting them to the party and coordinating with them. There is no reason to distinguish between "Russian corridors" and "Ukrainian corridors" other than what direction they go into. In order to operate, both sides agree to a ceasefire so civilians can go through. If a Ukrainian corridor succeeds, it's because the Russians weren't firing on it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
God how is it we are still on this humanitarian corridor poo poo? Does no one remember the green busses from Syria? It's the same thing. They are being scattered to the wind. The Ukrainians are literally being disappeared from the area they lived or literally executed on the outskirts of town. Entire cultures and families communities are being scattered to the far reaches of the empire so even if the Russians get pushed out there will be even more disparity in these areas.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:Russia is at all the corridors! Otherwise you wouldn't need a corridor! So I said I don't know why some corridors fail and others succeed because even if you think Russia is deliberately targeting them, they clearly do not target most of them! So, why? I merely speculated that the People's Republic forces are most likely to break the ceasefires. What? It sounds like you’re arguing that any road not currently controlled by Russian forces is a humanitarian corridor, which is a bizarre thing to say.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:55
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:"Safe passage" means "Into Russia or Russian Controlled Belarus". They have openly been caught forcing Ukrainian families to move to Russia. Supposedly there’s a westward corridor arranged in agreement with Kyiv, that some 6000 or so people have been able to leave through. That said, I’m still rather lukewarm on trusting any humanitarian corridor offers by Russian military being given in good faith. Young Freud posted:Meanwhile, in Kherson, looks like convoys are being blocked and diverted by popular protests. They’ve been protesting quite heavily, as far as I can tell. Russian troops are trying to quash the popular resistance, but the effort seems to be somewhat half-assed so far. Which makes sense - you go on a “training drill” to “be greeted like liberator”, and then you find yourself sitting in a per-sodden BMP, writing a report on how your bespoke military drone got broken by a jar of pickled tomatoes, after Ukrainian grandma gave you some sunflower seeds to pocket. Charlotte Hornets posted:Well, its a possibility. But need to figure something out. Strong guarantees, 3rd party brokering the deal that can't let the Russians embarrass them etc. Do you really think they’ve got an interest in behaving honourably, or any shame left to feel? WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Thousands of troops will die if they storm mariupol. Not hundreds. This will be thee most intense fight of the war. WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Russia is the sick man of Europe and it must be pacified with the pen. Calm down.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:God how is it we are still on this humanitarian corridor poo poo? Does no one remember the green busses from Syria? It's the same thing. They are being scattered to the wind. The Ukrainians are literally being disappeared from the area they lived or literally executed on the outskirts of town. Entire cultures and families communities are being scattered to the far reaches of the empire so even if the Russians get pushed out there will be even more disparity in these areas. Russia is committing documented war crimes - they are indiscriminately shelling civilians. They are arresting people for protesting in occupied Ukraine. But this whole "tens of thousands of Ukrainians are being disappeared" stuff is not backed up by evidence.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
Baronash posted:What? It sounds like you’re arguing that any road not currently controlled by Russian forces is a humanitarian corridor, which is a bizarre thing to say. It all hangs on the 'not all of the humanitarian corridors have been shelled or mined,' part.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:57
|
|
|
Baronash posted:What? It sounds like you’re arguing that any road not currently controlled by Russian forces is a humanitarian corridor, which is a bizarre thing to say. Nope, I'm definitely not saying that. A humanitarian corridor is established when both sides agree to stop fighting in an area so civilians can get out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:Russia is committing documented war crimes - they are indiscriminately shelling civilians. They are arresting people for protesting in occupied Ukraine. But this whole "tens of thousands of Ukrainians are being disappeared" stuff is not backed up by evidence. We saw tons of reports that cities in Russia has refugee camps being created. Donetsk citizens were sent to them as a first wave. Ukrainians are being forced to evacuate the conflict zone to Russia as the only option if the want to leave.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I don't really understand what you're arguing. Are you disputing that most of the corridors have been successful or not? That is the only thing I'm talking about, not who is responsible. Genuine question: HAVE most of the corridors been successful? I haven't been following that closely. Do you have a breakdown on how many corridors were formed, how many people were evacuated (and to where), and how many ended in tears? For that matter, perhaps relevant to the current discussion, how many of these corridors included disarmed soldiers?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:00
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:We saw tons of reports that cities in Russia has refugee camps being created. Donetsk citizens were sent to them as a first wave. Ukrainians are being forced to evacuate the conflict zone to Russia as the only option if the want to leave. It's true Russia did initially only want eastward humanitarian corridors, but the uptake was really low for a lot of those and so there have been a lot of westward corridors as well. We know there are refugee camps in Russia, I don't think that's the same thing as disappearing people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:We saw tons of reports that cities in Russia has refugee camps being created. Donetsk citizens were sent to them as a first wave. Ukrainians are being forced to evacuate the conflict zone to Russia as the only option if the want to leave. Is this actually solid proofed or just taken from some Kyiv Independent? There are reports of people from Mariupol-> Berdyansk-> Zaporizhzhia arrive at the destination from these corridors.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1505689969188294657 Ukrainains arnt gonna surrender any time soon it seems.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:08
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Genuine question: HAVE most of the corridors been successful? I haven't been following that closely. Do you have a breakdown on how many corridors were formed, how many people were evacuated (and to where), and how many ended in tears? For that matter, perhaps relevant to the current discussion, how many of these corridors included disarmed soldiers? There isn't a breakdown of how many corridors total because they don't always get coverage, it's ended up like this: https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1502843304748138496 Seven more opened today, to my knowledge they haven't failed (and Ukraine is very loud about ones that fail). There have obviously been quite a few since 190k is a lot of evacuated civilians. quote:LVIV, Ukraine, March 20 (Reuters) - Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk said seven humanitarian corridors would open on Sunday to enable civilians to leave frontline areas. Like, obviously a bunch of these don't end up working because the ceasefires are getting broken, so I am just speculating as to why some of them are failing and others aren't. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Mar 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:11
|
|
|
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/na-18-bereznya-pogodzheno-devyat-gumanitarnih-koridoriv-tako-73653 Here’s information about evacuation corridors westwards, since y’all appear intent to yell about stuff without citing anything.  some war footage inside if you click videoshttps://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-20-000-evacuated-from-mariupol-in-biggest-evacuation-yet-from-besieged-port-city-12566507 Here’s a specific example of them working in Mariupol. By working I mean that some people are able to leave - I’m not certain about the extent of duress they’re under, who’s prevented from leaving, etcetera. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/14/ukraine-russia-war-mariupol-evacuation-convoy First evacuation convoy successfully left 6 days ago. City has been under fire for ~2.5 weeks, and encircled for about 10 days. As the article mentions, supply convoys into the city were likewise blocked. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/03/16/7331934/ Here’s an account of a recent evacuation convoy being fired upon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:16
|
|
|
Not nearly enough reaction to what appears to be a blatant threat to disregard Geneva conventions, and for that matter to mistreat civilians that may be unable to "evacuate".
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I never said anything about Chechens? And regardless, Russia is responsible for the People's Republic guys so if they broke the ceasefire, that would be Russia's fault. It's not like they aren't inviting them to the party and coordinating with them. Concerned Citizen posted:well, that's me. i'm that guy. but that is not impossible - not to make them look bad, but because it would be advantageous to have civilians in the city. isis did the same thing. it's also possible that russians fired on them, sure, or that chechnyans fired on them by mistake, but there is literally no purpose to massacring civilians trying to flee on purpose. they were already more than capable of killing all the civilians they wanted without a fake corridor. Concerned Citizen posted:well, the russians didn't need to justify their activities in chechnya. they committed many well-documented war crimes. the chechens, who were radical islamists, were also known to commit war crimes and use hostages. they were not good dudes fighting for their freedom against a tyrannical russian government, they were bad dudes fighting to maintain a far-right and brutal theocracy against other bad dudes. it would not be surprising at all for the chechen militants to not want people to use the corridor, whereas russia would very much want people to use the corridor because it makes it far easier to level the city without civilians running around. Considering that this the third war in which Russia has used fake humanitarian corridors, you claiming that it was probably the non-Russian side at fault every time for the 'break down' doesn't pass the smell test. If Russia is perfectly fine committing war crimes for no gain, why would you think they couldn't or wouldn't commit this war crime?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:Not nearly enough reaction to what appears to be a blatant threat to disregard Geneva conventions, and for that matter to mistreat civilians that may be unable to "evacuate". Yeah, I feel that “but they let people out” at this point is close to a red herring, and I just wanted to drop some context into the conversation that was people yelling past each other for the most of it. Russian army is the sole party responsible for these conditions, and has qualms neither with bombing ordinary people, nor with tormenting them under guise of letting them flee the areas of bombardment. That they’re now letting some through is a positive change, but not the one I believe to have happened out of concern for the well-being of the Ukrainian people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:27
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:Yeah, I feel that “but they let people out” at this point is close to a red herring, and I just wanted to drop some context into the conversation that was people yelling past each other for the most of it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I mean, most of the corridors succeed and some end up breaking down immediately. Your guess is as good as mine as to why. It is not true that "whenever Russia guarantees a corridor" it gets blown up or attacked, in fact that is the minority of the time. It's russia intentionally attacking civilians. Why do you feel the need to defend their behavior?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:31
|
|
|
So to recap: Belarus is being forced to join the war against Ukraine by Russia lest Luka is overthrown, and is ordered to blockade Lviv from western shipping - and the US thinks they're really doing it now, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:35
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:Yeah, I feel that “but they let people out” at this point is close to a red herring, and I just wanted to drop some context into the conversation that was people yelling past each other for the most of it. To be clear, I think the main reason they let people out is because it makes it easier to take cities if there aren't as many civilians around. In fact, they probably see a Ukrainian refugee crisis as advantageous to their side. If they thought civilians sticking around in the frontline cities helped them achieve their objectives, they probably would not agree to the corridors. Kchama posted:Considering that this the third war in which Russia has used fake humanitarian corridors, you claiming that it was probably the non-Russian side at fault every time for the 'break down' doesn't pass the smell test. If Russia is perfectly fine committing war crimes for no gain, why would you think they couldn't or wouldn't commit this war crime? I just didn't claim it was probably the non-Russian side who is at fault, and once again I would hold Russia responsible if its ally did break the ceasefire. I mean, they are the ones bringing these guys to the front lines. I am in no way saying that Russians don't also break ceasefires, only pointing out that they kept happening around the separatist forces. downout posted:It's russia intentionally attacking civilians. Why do you feel the need to defend their behavior? I haven't defended any behavior. The OP said "the last time they did corridors they shot all the buses" and I was pointing out that there have been tons of successful corridors. That isn't me saying "oh yeah they should definitely take the surrender deal in mariupol." Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Mar 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:35
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I just didn't claim it was probably the non-Russian side who is at fault, and once again I would hold Russia responsible if its ally did break the ceasefire. I mean, they are the ones bringing these guys to the front lines. I am in no way saying that Russians don't also break ceasefires, only pointing out that they kept happening around the separatist forces. Then why are you entertaining the idea that it's not Russia doing it, to the point that when this previously came up you said the Chechen attacked their own civilians? I mean, let's get real. It wasn't the Ukrainians, no matter the faction. This is why I brought up that this coincidentally happened in every single war where Russia has done 'humanitarian corridors' like this. The idea that they could be innocent in every war is laughable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:40
|
|
|
Ukrainian ultra nationalists shot the Ukrainian humanitarian missions and blamed Russia because then the world would put uh... More sanctions on Russia?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:To be clear, I think the main reason they let people out is because it makes it easier to take cities if there aren't as many civilians around. In fact, they probably see a Ukrainian refugee crisis as advantageous to their side. If they thought civilians sticking around in the frontline cities helped them achieve their objectives, they probably would not agree to the corridors. "tons of succesful humanitarian corridors" such as?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 21:20 |
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:"tons of succesful humanitarian corridors" such as? They were definitely a success if you consider Russia bombing them a military victory.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 01:44
|
|