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Cocoa Ninja posted:One of the twitter replies points out that fire starts coming out from below the turret at the very end of the video, at 11 seconds. And someone in the GB thread suggested it was a tandem charge that penetrated and then fragged inside the cabin, which would be lethal to crew. To make sure I am understanding this - did this literally melt through the top of the tank?
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Mar 29, 2022 03:42
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:To make sure I am understanding this - did this literally melt through the top of the tank? That's how a lot of AT munitions tend to work.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:43
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Yeah, and that could even be a Javelin in direct attack mode.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:47
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eke out posted:Not really, the FT piece directly says that the status of Donbas will be left to Zelenskyy and Putin, and Zelenskyy echoed that in the interview he did: They don't need to assault Crimea, they can play the long game. They just need to convince the west to keep sanctions on Russia until pre-2014 borders are restored. The more time goes on, the more their German-funded petroeuros dry up, the harder it gets. Eventually Putin will die or Russia will collapse, and that will be the perfect time to discuss the return of Crimea as a condition of normalizing relations between Russia and the west. It may take 5-10 years for this to occur, but the longer times goes on, the worse things will get in Russia, the better the negotiating position will be with any future Russian administration.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:51
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the popes toes posted:And who would remove him? I think it false that a perceived failure in Ukraine would catastrophically weaken him. The difficultry removing him would still obtain. He's not going anywhere. Here's an interesting thought - this may be true, but does Putin know that? He just had a "sure thing" invasion bog down into nothing because what his people were telling him turned out to be bullshit. He might be paranoid now about how much real knowledge and control he has of his own government as far as internal security is concerned as well. So even if in truth he does actually have ironclad control over his cronies, it's possible that he'll still act as if upholding his strongman image and avoiding all appearance of failure is absolutely vital to his self-preservation simply because he thinks it is and has reason to worry about it.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:52
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Cocoa Ninja posted:One of the twitter replies points out that fire starts coming out from below the turret at the very end of the video, at 11 seconds. And someone in the GB thread suggested it was a tandem charge that penetrated and then fragged inside the cabin, which would be lethal to crew. I had to basically frame by frame it but yeah, unless there's some kind of grease or other lubricant that can burst into flames on the base of the turret, the inside of that tank is on fire. Presumably along with whoever is inside. That's a scary loving weapon.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:54
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eke out posted:To me, any outcome where Russia loses so much strength it cannot meaningfully defend Crimea is one where Putin has been couped months ago and the guys that couped him also probably have been couped. I guess that is the point we disagree on. My take is that Putin can reasonably remain firmly in control right up until the moment that the Russian front line breaks irreparably, whether from morale or lack of supplies, and Putin, due to leading as an authoritarian strongman, will be forced to keep the lines up and fighting until they do. the popes toes posted:And who would remove him? I think it false that a perceived failure in Ukraine would catastrophically weaken him. The difficultry removing him would still obtain. He's not going anywhere. That's hard to say. My understanding of Putin right now is that he has monopolized authority to an extent that there is no real power block against him at the moment. But this isn't predetermined. It's that way because he has so much respect, clout, and people who directly depend on him, that he can order nearly anything he wishes. But if he loses that, the way that a 2/23 deal would entail, then I would also assert that he loses the ability to maintain the stranglehold which keeps any real threats to his rule from forming. Who exactly that would be is just a matter of who steps up. (My bet would be on Bortnikov but that's kind of a shot in the dark.) Pavlov fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Mar 29, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 03:59
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KitConstantine posted:Dunno how good the Moldovan military is, but disturbing equilibrium during an active war on the border of said war seems bad Yeah, I think it's more useful to Ukraine to have the 3 x BTGs sitting in Transnistria doing ... nothing. While they're not attacking Ukraine, it's better having them sit out the war than opening another new front for no real gain. I also suspect those Russian troops have access to Moldovan TV and internet and are aware with what is going on, and are likely in no hurry to get involved in the war. In the event Ukraine succeeds in driving Russia out of Ukraine proper, that would be the appropriate time to declare the Moldovan border as Ukraine's sphere of influence and invite the troops to leave.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:06
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Pavlov posted:That's hard to say. My understanding of Putin right now is that he has monopolized authority to an extent that there is no real power block against him at the moment. But this isn't predetermined. It's that way because he has so much respect, clout, and people who directly depend on him, that he can order nearly anything he wishes. But if he loses that, the way that a 2/23 deal would entail, then I would also assert that he loses the ability to maintain the stranglehold which keeps any real threats to his rule from forming. Who exactly that would be is just a matter of who steps up. (My bet would be on Bortnikov but that's kind of a shot in the dark.) It will be interesting to see if Putin attends the May 9th military parade in his bulletproof box.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:20
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Renewed offensive of Russians north and north west Kyiv. Eastern Russian forces are securing villages and roads to Kyiv. If these reinforced Russian units are unable to do conduct meaningful gains and get closer to the Kyiv center that will be a fairly bad thing on the is russian side. Particularly as these are supposedly the more seasoned forces in the Russian arsenal. The Russians aren't even completely in mariupol. It's been encircles for what 15 days now? I'm certain at this point the Kyiv defenders are getting progressively better at war now. We will see a heightened force of veterans of current strategy and conventional war in a few months that will be much superior in tactical capablities and general being in the military for longer than a few weeks.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:20
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Telsa Cola posted:That's how a lot of AT munitions tend to work. Common misconception due to the HEAT moniker acronym. The armor is penetrated by kinetic force. Solids behave like liquids when enough force is imparted on it. The shaped charge explosively forms a substance into a coherent stream of matter which focuses all that energy onto a small point in the armor. Its kind of similar to how water jet cutting works.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:23
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KillHour posted:I had to basically frame by frame it but yeah, unless there's some kind of grease or other lubricant that can burst into flames on the base of the turret, the inside of that tank is on fire. Presumably along with whoever is inside. Couldn't it just be left over propellant
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Mar 29, 2022 04:27
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Alctel posted:Couldn't it just be left over propellant Yeah the warhead didn't arm properly due to the short distance. That tank is still active and still dangerous. I want to see what an N-Law or Jav can actually do to these tanks in a combat zone but there's no footage. Only some training videos on test hulks.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:33
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:To make sure I am understanding this - did this literally melt through the top of the tank? I used to remember seeing a drawing of how it was supposed to work but yes then all the hot metal melting poo poo sprays though a tiny whole killing everybody inside with fire, like the type of fire you need a class D extinguisher to put out.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:37
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EscapeHere posted:It will be interesting to see if Putin attends the May 9th military parade in his bulletproof box. Or at all. All it took was a handful of conspirators to kill Anwar Sadat at a victory parade. A bulletproof box doesn't help very much against a tank shell.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:41
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Alctel posted:Couldn't it just be left over propellant Maybe? and the only way to be sure would be to ask an expert who probably can't weigh in due to it being classified, but it looks a lot to me like when thermite melts through something and the fire comes out from underneath. The flames are clearly coming from the joint between the turret and the body, and it started with smoke coming out of there before the fire. That makes me think that whatever is on fire is inside the tank and not just on the surface. (stills from the video but spoilering anyways) Here's the exact moment you can see something start to come out from under the turret:  Compare that to a few seconds later:  That's a lot of smoke coming from somewhere. KillHour fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Mar 29, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 04:43
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.  
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Mar 29, 2022 04:43
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I used to remember seeing a drawing of how it was supposed to work but yes then all the hot metal melting poo poo sprays though a tiny whole killing everybody inside with fire, like the type of fire you need a class D extinguisher to put out. I don't believe this is accurate unless secondary explosions are achieved from collateral munitions inside the vehicle. The impact onto the armor will create a spall cone on the inside of the armor. Essentially the crew could be shredded by shrapnel made from their tanks own armor. If you had a large piece of thick steel plate, and you fired a high velocity slug into it, on the back side you will have larger "hole" or area where material has fractured off the back side and continued on the shockwave path. You could even not penetrate the plate and still have caused spalling on the backside of the armor and anything behind it would get impacted by it.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:47
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I used to remember seeing a drawing of how it was supposed to work but yes then all the hot metal melting poo poo sprays though a tiny whole killing everybody inside with fire, like the type of fire you need a class D extinguisher to put out. Yeah you get a mixture of molten copper droplets, solidified copper and spalled armour splinters travelling through the interior at supersonic speed shredding everything they hit including ammunition and crew.
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Mar 29, 2022 04:47
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Young Freud posted:Or at all. If this war ends with Vladamir Putin eating a shell from the world's only remaining, functional T-14 Armata, I may be in serious danger of dying from laughter. Pavlov fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Mar 29, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 04:49
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Pavlov posted:If this war ends with Vladamir Putin eating a shell from the world's only functional remaining T-14 Armata, I may be in serious danger of dying from laughter. Looking at last year's video, Putin was seated on a podium surrounded by what looked like most of his inner circle. Smuggling a couple of live rounds into one of those tanks that parades past could do a lot of damage. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 29, 2022 04:53
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PITT posted:I don't believe this is accurate unless secondary explosions are achieved from collateral munitions inside the vehicle. I remember a small hole on the interior. But lol I’m recalling an image I saw two decades ago. My brain is making GBS threads out this: gay picnic defence posted:Yeah you get a mixture of molten copper droplets, solidified copper and spalled armour splinters travelling through the interior at supersonic speed shredding everything they hit including ammunition and crew.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:12
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PITT posted:I don't believe this is accurate unless secondary explosions are achieved from collateral munitions inside the vehicle. The impact onto the armor will create a spall cone on the inside of the armor. Essentially the crew could be shredded by shrapnel made from their tanks own armor. There is damage caused by spalling but the stream of metal that is punching through the armor is going to be very hot by default and can indeed set fires to components (or people) when it gets sprayed all over in the tank.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:12
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. Thank you for this. Slava Ukraini.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:14
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Bravely Russia has objected to the West's bio-labs, and the incitement of Nazism on their very doorstep. Because these things are a threat to Russia, they are valued by the ever encroaching NATO. Ukraine, a fake nation, has been bolstered by NATO at the direction of the US with weapons of destruction aimed at Russia's throat. The West hates Russians so much, the bedrock of their identity, their language, is being stamped out by Nazi purges and pogroms. The Russian military response to Ukraine has sent a message, to the US, to Nazis and to NATO that Russia will not permit such threats from the imperialist adversary. With Crimea held, and the Donbas, the message is the win. The world now knows Russia's determination. Putin will continue to protect Russia. The sanctions will require sacrifice. It is a small price to pay for independence. Russia must turn inward, away from false promises and the empty allures of Western decadence. Mr. Putin will show them the way. No, he's not going anywhere.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:14
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PITT posted:I don't believe this is accurate unless secondary explosions are achieved from collateral munitions inside the vehicle. The impact onto the armor will create a spall cone on the inside of the armor. Essentially the crew could be shredded by shrapnel made from their tanks own armor. The British HESH rounds do this, and by design. Most other rounds are designed to penetrate and the spalling is a secondary bonus feature which can also be nice if complete penetration is not achieved, hehe.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:21
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:There is damage caused by spalling but the stream of metal that is punching through the armor is going to be very hot by default and can indeed set fires to components (or people) when it gets sprayed all over in the tank. This is how the NLAW works. It creates a very thin, extremely hot stream that cuts through the top armor (ERA included) and into the crew compartment. Not much spalling, if any. But a seriously compromised crew compartment. HESH ammunition is specifically designed to cause spalling, though it can happen to a lesser extent with any kinetic force strong enough.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:31
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PITT posted:You could even not penetrate the plate and still have caused spalling on the backside of the armor and anything behind it would get impacted by it. This probably depends on the chemistry and purity of the alloy used, since non-penetration may cause deformation and resulting shearing along weak planes but it'd likely still be more ductile than brittle in nature as distance increases from the point of impact. Edit: Sorry, I'm tired and maybe misread this. Are you saying that it'll simply cause a spall and someone could be impacted by the spall itself? Or that it'd spall and likely still cause fragmentation on the opposing face that could cause impacts? If the former, yeah, that's true. I was thinking you meant the latter, so apologize if so. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 29, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 05:33
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Trump posted:This is how the NLAW works. It creates a very thin, extremely hot stream that cuts through the top armor (ERA included) and into the crew compartment. Not much spalling, if any. But a seriously compromised crew compartment. If that is indeed an NLAW that's activating in it that short range shot the viewing perspective sure is lucky it didn't blow up like we've seen NLAWs do to some of the tanks that have been highlight reel'd in this war.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:34
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DeliciousPatriotism posted:If that is indeed an NLAW that's activating in it that short range shot the viewing perspective sure is lucky it didn't blow up like we've seen NLAWs do to some of the tanks that have been highlight reel'd in this war. It's definitely an NLAW. It took some digging to find a good picture to compare it to but the shape and color markings match:  ...I really just wanted an excuse to post that picture.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:48
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SourKraut posted:This probably depends on the chemistry and purity of the alloy used, since non-penetration may cause deformation and resulting shearing along weak planes but it'd likely still be more ductile than brittle in nature as distance increases from the point of impact. They’re describing how a non penetrating hit can disable a tank. The shockwave from the impact or an explosion against the armour (I.e. from a HESH warhead) can send high speed metal splinters throughout the interior. Most tanks have lining on the inside to protect against this now and ERA has made HESH obsolete so it’s no longer used.
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Mar 29, 2022 05:52
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Spalling was a big thing in WWII since a lot of AP shells, esp early war, were just big chunks of hardened metal. One of those hitting your tank would cause all kinds of poo poo to fly around inside, though some tanks were way more prone to it than others One thing that hasn't changed is that being in a tank loving sucks
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Mar 29, 2022 06:07
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.
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Mar 29, 2022 06:14
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Alctel posted:One thing that hasn't changed is that being in a tank loving sucks I'm honestly really surprised they haven't been largely replaced by remote ground-based drones in the shape of tanks.
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Mar 29, 2022 06:20
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Alctel posted:Spalling was a big thing in WWII since a lot of AP shells, esp early war, were just big chunks of hardened metal. One of those hitting your tank would cause all kinds of poo poo to fly around inside, though some tanks were way more prone to it than others Yeah looks like HESH (US calls it HEP) began to go by the wayside sometime in the late 80's/early 90's for anti armor use because of changes in armor manufacture (layering, baffle skirting, and ERA) and the addition of kevlar liners to the inside of the tank to stop spalling. Going by others commentary who've driven a tank IRL it sounds like the Russian tanks suck to be in but the Western tanks (not just US) seem to actually be fairly decent to be in for the crew. The downside of course is they tend to be bigger and heavier (especially the Abrams) vs the Russian tanks. As always there is a tradeoff to be made somewhere to get something else of course.
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Mar 29, 2022 06:22
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Something a bit lighter in all this... https://twitter.com/guillaume_ptak/status/1508431290542043144?s=20&t=dlynieqAu4iUDWRj24ALTw
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Mar 29, 2022 06:25
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KillHour posted:I'm honestly really surprised they haven't been largely replaced by remote ground-based drones in the shape of tanks. The issue concerning drones is controlling them in a war environment. There is always the risk the opponent figures out how to hack them and either disables them in some fashion or outright turns them against you. The US has had some of its drones hacked before. I believe Iran pulled it off years ago and used the information they learned to build some of their drones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident So this is no minor issue or armchair theorizing going on here. Its a real threat. Developing new communications tech and security is a constant issue with drones because the other guys are always figuring out ways to hack them. Drones will likely see more development and use, they're too useful not to, but I don't see them ever largely replacing directly human controlled weaponry in war.
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Mar 29, 2022 06:26
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Young Freud posted:Something a bit lighter in all this... Putin finally flushed out the sexual deviant menace trying to bring gay space communism to Russia. Mission accomplished! PC LOAD LETTER posted:The issue concerning drones is controlling them in a war environment. I guess, but we use aerial drones heavily, so it still seems weird they just straight up don't exist. I would imagine a part of it is that tanks are on the ground so it's harder to get a good signal, but I could see a command and control drone bouncing the signal down to them and providing unified sensors - which is already starting to be a thing. KillHour fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Mar 29, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 06:27
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Nenonen posted:Molotov cocktails are not effective against modern armour unless dropped down an open hatch. If applied at front it could temporarily blind the tank, but it's not going to destroy it. What if me and my buddies have a hundred molotovs and are willing to use them?
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Mar 29, 2022 06:35
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KillHour posted:I guess, but we use aerial drones heavily, so it still seems weird they just straight up don't exist. The US Army bought and tried out a few of them briefly years ago now. They didn't seem too impressed with them or other attempts at drone tanks at the time. Its possible that there has just been a lot more money put into air drones than land drones that land drones haven't seen as much mature and effective development so far. Actually getting the signal to them isn't much of a issue as far as I know. Its keeping control of them and end user training that are bigger issues as far as I can tell. I'm not a expert on them by any means though.
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Mar 29, 2022 06:37
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