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Nodoze posted:My main complaint with G14 is and always will be the "titans" stuff they chose to use for all the kaiju and Godzilla not really being Godzilla. They stripped one of the core elements of the character out of him what?
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Mar 30, 2022 21:21
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DeimosRising posted:what? In the legendary movies Godzilla is basically an ancient creature, not a manmade creation from the A-Bomb e: I guess this is kind of a  thing to complain about
Nodoze fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 22:16
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Nodoze posted:In the legendary movies Godzilla is basically an ancient creature, not a manmade creation from the A-Bomb Godzilla's always been an ancient creature depending on the continuity The original Godzilla basically shared the same backstory as this current one- millions of years old. The atomic bomb didn't mutate him so much as scar and enrage him, and destroy his natural ecosystem driving him to the surface. The main difference is that they swapped in late Showa Godzilla's motivation of protecting the Earth instead of G'54 being a victim of nuclear assault perpetuating the damage it brought
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Mar 30, 2022 23:13
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To be fair, they also changed the immediate catalyst from "nuclear testing" to "nuclear submarines", which is a bit ehhhhhh
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Mar 31, 2022 01:46
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HannibalBarca posted:To be fair, they also changed the immediate catalyst from "nuclear testing" to "nuclear submarines", which is a bit ehhhhhh Like it recontextualizes that historical stuff to say they were actually trying to nuke Godzilla, not just test the bombs; are you just saying he woke up because of other stuff before that?
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Mar 31, 2022 05:28
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Martman posted:Huh? Doesn't Godzilla 2014 like, open with footage of nuclear bomb tests in the Bikini Atoll? I wasn't going to correct them, but you opened the door so I'll do it In universe, the atomic bombings of Japan woke Godzilla up and the h-bombings that followed in the 50s were attempts to kill him. Further, there was a comic prologue that showed the atomic bombings of Japan waking up a different kaiju, and Godzilla specifically woke up to deal with that and kill it.
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Mar 31, 2022 07:04
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In the movie Serizawa explicitly says the USS Nautilus woke him up. If you want to go nitpicking from Awakening, a graphic novel which 12 people read and which raises more questions than it answers, then be my guest I suppose.
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Mar 31, 2022 11:13
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Burkion posted:Godzilla's always been an ancient creature depending on the continuity The Heisei series lays it out the best, Godzilla vs King Ghidorah establishes that they were godzillasaurs still living that were mutated by the bombs. Even if you look JUST at g54, there is no indication that it was already Godzilla before the bomb testing, just that he was a surviving dinosaur whose hidden habitat was destroyed. As far as I know there was nothing to suggest that it was already was irradiated, had atomic breath, essentially immortal, etc. The legendary godzilla was always what he was, the bomb tests were just trying to kill him
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Mar 31, 2022 14:20
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Godzilla is (re)awakened by a nuclear sub in King Kong Versus Godzilla, Mothra Versus Godzilla, Godzilla 2014, and Godzilla Versus King Ghidorah. The one in Godzilla 1984 is technically woken up by a random volcanic eruption, but then attacks a nuclear sub shortly afterwards.
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Mar 31, 2022 14:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Godzilla is (re)awakened by a nuclear sub in Nah, they're draining the lake in that one. That is maybe my favourite Godzilla entrance.
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Mar 31, 2022 15:26
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In the original Godzilla vs Kong the ice berg he's trapped in from Raids Again is already melting when the submarine shows up.SuperMechagodzilla posted:Godzilla is (re)awakened by a nuclear sub in King Kong Versus Godzilla, Mothra Versus Godzilla, Godzilla 2014, and Godzilla Versus King Ghidorah. 84 and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah are the same Godzilla, assuming you are talking about the Heisei movie. He isn't re-awakened by the sub, he's just stuck under water because of the Anti-Nuclear Bacteria from Godzilla vs Biollante. He has to stay under the water to keep his temperature low so the bacteria won't activate. When he runs into the sub and drains all nuclear power from it it's enough to totally blow out the bacteria Nodoze fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 15:43
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Karloff posted:Nah, they're draining the lake in that one. That is maybe my favourite Godzilla entrance. Welp, it turns out that what looked like a sub being washed ashore, in lower resolutions, was actually an upside-down boat. In any case, there are multiple different things that wake up Godzillas - in that case, a mix of natural disaster and industrial activity. It'd be weird if it was invariably a result of nuclear testing.
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Mar 31, 2022 15:57
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Nodoze posted:The Heisei series [is] the best
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Mar 31, 2022 15:59
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Nodoze posted:84 and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah are the same Godzilla, assuming you are talking about the Heisei movie. He isn't re-awakened by the sub, he's just stuck under water because of the Anti-Nuclear Bacteria from Godzilla vs Biollante. He has to stay under the water to keep his temperature low so the bacteria won't activate. When he runs into the sub and drains all nuclear power from it it's enough to totally blow out the bacteria Same difference. But also, because of time fuckery, the film creates a second origin for New Godzilla. He's a dinosaur mutated by proximity to a crashed nuclear sub.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:04
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Must there be a Godzilla? There is.
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Mar 31, 2022 16:20
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Same difference. But also, because of time fuckery, the film creates a second origin for New Godzilla. He's a dinosaur mutated by proximity to a crashed nuclear sub. Yes and no. The Futurians are wrong and basing their theory off of Terasawa's book, but Terasawa was also wrong. At this point no one knows in story that the Heisei Godzilla is not the same as the one that died in 1954, they are all operating under the assumption that it's the same one. So the Futurians created the Heisei Godzilla by trying to prevent what they incorrectly assumed was the original one from being born in the first place. So because Terasawa was wrong, so were they. This is it's actual origin, being created by the Futurians. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Welp, it turns out that what looked like a sub being washed ashore, in lower resolutions, was actually an upside-down boat. The Godzilla in the Showa movies is the same one from Raids Again to the end, it doesn't need to be re-awakened by nuclear testing in every movie to be created by it. I think in Mothra movie someone brought up he was literally just sleeping in the dirt and they found him by accident, but it's been a while since I have seen that movie Nodoze fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Mar 31, 2022 |
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Mar 31, 2022 16:24
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Nodoze posted:Yes and no. The Futurians are wrong and basing their theory off of Terasawa's book, but Terasawa was also wrong. At this point no one knows in story that the Heisei Godzilla is not the same as the one that died in 1954, they are all operating under the assumption that it's the same one. So the Futurians created the Heisei Godzilla by trying to prevent what they incorrectly assumed was the original one from being born in the first place. So because Terasawa was wrong, so were they. This is it's actual origin, being created by the Futurians. The recurring element here is that godzilla fucken loves naps, but he fucken hates environmental disasters. so nuclear testings, lake drainings, volcanoes and so forth always "wake him up", which is his origin within a bunch of films. to some extent you have to think of the movies in and of themselves, not just as a serial
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Mar 31, 2022 16:38
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DeimosRising posted:The recurring element here is that godzilla fucken loves naps KOTM was the best of the American Godzilla movies because it features Godzilla napping on a big warm rock like a pet iguana
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Mar 31, 2022 16:46
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Bandai finally coming out with soft vinyls of Salunga and Jet Jaguar PP  
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Mar 31, 2022 18:03
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Nodoze posted:The Heisei series lays it out the best, Godzilla vs King Ghidorah establishes that they were godzillasaurs still living that were mutated by the bombs. Even if you look JUST at g54, there is no indication that it was already Godzilla before the bomb testing, just that he was a surviving dinosaur whose hidden habitat was destroyed. As far as I know there was nothing to suggest that it was already was irradiated, had atomic breath, essentially immortal, etc. G54 explicitly was not mutated. It was already Godzilla.  It is theorized in the film that he was irradiated by Hbomb testing, but not that he was changed by it- beyond the scarring that occurred. What Hbomb testing did was destroy his habitat and wipe out the other members of his race. Godzilla being an entirely different kind of creature, a more realistic dinosaur, that then mutates into a Godzilla, is strictly a Heisei era invention and is not consistent with any other version of the character. Legendary draws from that idea, just takes it in a different direction.
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Mar 31, 2022 19:44
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:KOTM was the best of the American Godzilla movies because it features Godzilla napping on a big warm rock like a pet iguana Also Rodan gets his big hero moment when he absolutely loving yeets himself at Ghidorah I'm always rootin for Rodan
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Mar 31, 2022 19:49
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Burkion posted:G54 explicitly was not mutated. I cannot read Japanese, but everything I've read about the first movie explicitly states "was mutated by H-Bomb testing" ie: , immune to radiation and able to fire his atomic breath etc.
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Mar 31, 2022 20:54
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Yeah, it is not stated outright that he got his nuclear breath from the bomb but it is incredibly heavily implied in the 54 film. Yamane makes a deduction that Godzilla was awoken by the bomb tests due to the trail of radiation he leaves plus his scars. He then arrives in Tokyo sporting a weapon that melts pylons like they've been flashed fried in a nuclear blast. I think it is very much saying that he got his breath from the bomb. Legendary Godzilla is the only one I think where it clearly states that he had his breath prior to the bomb but that's due to him being from a period in time where radiation was more prevalent, no such assertion is made in the 54 film.
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Mar 31, 2022 21:45
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The breath is one thing But his actually being like, Godzilla, was always a thing in the original film. That's what I'm talking about. He wasn't mutated to be immune to radiation-he already was. That's something that Yamane makes clear and is his whole problem with just killing the monster They should study Godzilla to see why it's immune. Godzilla '54 is not a mutant in the way Heisei is. That picture is showing what I'm trying to get across- those were a group of Godzillas living peacefully, the H Bomb tests go off and kill all but the main one, who is scarred and driven from his now destroyed ecosystem. The only physical changes are the scarring.
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Mar 31, 2022 21:56
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Mods asleep, post smooth godzillas
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Mar 31, 2022 22:21
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Burkion posted:The breath is one thing I never took it to mean the creature is naturally immune to radiation so much as "it is now afterward" but I guess that comes down to how you interpret it. And I guess technically getting mutated by it to become what it was still means it is immune in a way since it didn't just die
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Mar 31, 2022 23:16
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One reason I'm adamant about this not being the intended reading, also, is that you have to keep in mind when Gojira was made. 1954. To put it very simply, the idea of radiation mutating something into something else was not a thing. Not in the way we're talking. The first contemporary film to tackle that subject was THEM!, which no one working on Gojira would have had any idea about and which aired months after. People are applying a sci-fi trope to a film that predates the entire concept. None of the Showa Era kaiju up until *way* late are affected by radiation in that way at all. Kamakurus are the first on screen examples, where they used to be human sized and then grew to be giant, but that wasn't due to radiation itself as I recall. Anguirus and Rodan were both supposed to be examples of their dinosaur species that just survived to the modern day and were awakened by mining, for Rodan, and ...I guess Godzilla? for Ang. It's kind of ridiculous to look at them and go 'those are dinosaurs' but that was the intention.
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Apr 1, 2022 00:05
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Burkion posted:One reason I'm adamant about this not being the intended reading, also, is that you have to keep in mind when Gojira was made. The Invisible Ray (1936) is about a scientist who gets weird powers/goes mad from radiation poisoning from space. It's a concept that's way older than Gojira, and present in too many sci fi films for me to list that were made long before 1954. If you're talking about the atomic bombs specifically, then yeah. But the concept of man/monster being made by radiation/mad science/the folly of man are as old as the genre itself.
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Apr 1, 2022 00:17
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Kvlt! posted:The Invisible Ray (1936) is about a scientist who gets weird powers/goes mad from radiation poisoning from space. It's a concept that's way older than Gojira, and present in too many sci fi films for me to list that were made long before 1954. I am and have been very specifically talking about a normal animal being turned into a monster by exposure to very specifically atomic radiation from the bomb. Which is what started this whole conversation, and which Godzilla predates and does not draw inspiration from. The two films Godzilla draws inspiration from the most are Kong and Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, the latter of which does feature, like Godzilla, the titular beast being awoken by nuclear radiation, but not altered or changed by it.
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Apr 1, 2022 00:22
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And that's fair but you wroteBurkion posted:To put it very simply, the idea of radiation mutating something into something else was not a thing. . Which I misconstrued. But now that you've clarified I agree with you.
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Apr 1, 2022 00:25
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GATOS Y VATOS posted:Mods asleep, post smooth godzillas Sure which flavor; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3a9dNqqq-E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdE7Om5mMtY
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Apr 1, 2022 00:42
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The other wrinkle is that Godzilla is far larger than any dinosaur or reptile which may make viewers presume that this is a result of the radiation. I do wonder if the idea of radiation causing unnatural growth existed prior to Them! or if it was in the public consciousness in any way via comics or science fiction stories. Though I can't find much from a cursory Google search in this regard. Either way, part of the appeal of Godzilla and what makes the 54 film have a sense of creepiness which no Godzilla film has been able to replicate is that there is an ambiguity to his nature. He feels like he could be merely an out of control animal, but there's something almost supernatural about him as well, the Odo islanders may be right when they consider this creature to be the same Godzilla that they worship/fear. Maybe he is a God. Entirely conscious and deliberately punishing us, perhaps he has awakened before, coming out of the ocean each time humankind gets out of line, and therefore knows exactly what he's doing. Or he could just be a walking freak accident who isn't really self aware and is just lashing out. He's like the shark from Jaws in that way, that could be just a hungry fish, but there are points in the film where it feelslike it knows what it's doing, which is especially eerie as it only implied, never stated (until Jaws 4 lol).
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Apr 1, 2022 00:55
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So Uktena was bad. Like wicked bad. Not fun bad. Bad bad. It's a movie that WANTS to be a micro-budget kaiju fan film with a lot of heart, but has absolutely none. Instead it comes off as soulless and cheap in a non-fun way. It sells itself as a micro budget kaiju labor of love but its anything but. It feels like a cheap cash grab by someone who read the wikipedia for kaiju movies and made a movie without ever watching one. Scientists are green screened into offices. Hunters hunt with muskets for some reason. It's not a situation where they cut the budget in the human scenes for the kaiju scenes, because the kaiju scenes are also horribly shot. The CGI is terrible and the practical FX are middling. There really isn't a plot. There's not a single character whose interesting or has background. It's not fun to watch. The video is poorly shot and edited and the sound is even worse. The one positive thing is that the design for the creature is wicked cool. The cover and concept art are amazing. But the execution of what he looks like in the movie is terrible, so it doesn't even matter. Go watch paint dry for 90 minutes, its a better use of your time than Uktena.
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Apr 1, 2022 02:00
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What cultural tragedy would an American Godzilla movie tap into that would make it an effective metaphor in the same vein as G'54 and Shin Godzilla? My immediate thought is 9/11 but then I realized we're 20 years removed from that. I can't imagine that would be a relevant trauma for even the most redneck populations oh wait it's Covid isn't it
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Apr 1, 2022 02:44
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Xander B Coolridge posted:What cultural tragedy would an American Godzilla movie tap into that would make it an effective metaphor in the same vein as G'54 and Shin Godzilla? Bring back Matango as the threat for the movie, culminating in Godzilla fighting a proper Kaiju sized mushroom monster
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Apr 1, 2022 03:02
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Xander B Coolridge posted:What cultural tragedy would an American Godzilla movie tap into that would make it an effective metaphor in the same vein as G'54 and Shin Godzilla? A proper, actual, no bullshit American Godzilla movie would be some hot button political as *gently caress* stuff that would, done right, keep people arguing for decades because they don't want to be in the wrong, for those that don't discount it entirely off hand. I do not seriously believe for one second that you could do a proper American Godzilla movie justice in the Hollywood system without some legit divine intervention. Karloff posted:The other wrinkle is that Godzilla is far larger than any dinosaur or reptile which may make viewers presume that this is a result of the radiation. I do wonder if the idea of radiation causing unnatural growth existed prior to Them! or if it was in the public consciousness in any way via comics or science fiction stories. Though I can't find much from a cursory Google search in this regard. Either way, part of the appeal of Godzilla and what makes the 54 film have a sense of creepiness which no Godzilla film has been able to replicate is that there is an ambiguity to his nature. He feels like he could be merely an out of control animal, but there's something almost supernatural about him as well, the Odo islanders may be right when they consider this creature to be the same Godzilla that they worship/fear. Maybe he is a God. Entirely conscious and deliberately punishing us, perhaps he has awakened before, coming out of the ocean each time humankind gets out of line, and therefore knows exactly what he's doing. Or he could just be a walking freak accident who isn't really self aware and is just lashing out. He's like the shark from Jaws in that way, that could be just a hungry fish, but there are points in the film where it feelslike it knows what it's doing, which is especially eerie as it only implied, never stated (until Jaws 4 lol). So this touches the raw nerve that I have been dancing around and not wanting to broach The entire discussion with G'54 vis a vis is he given powers by the atomic bomb is 100% missing the point because the original Godzilla, the entity itself, is pure metaphor in a way no other iteration after is. He doesn't have atomic beams because of the bomb- he has it because he IS the bomb. Godzilla is the tragedy and horror and also the hope and futility of nuclear power, a victim and perpetuator of suffering, a thing that cannot co-exist with humanity, regardless of its intentions, as it is. There is promise in Godzilla's existence, the idea of studying him to understand how to survive radiation, how to become immune to it. There are two scientists in the film, and to the movie's absolute credit, it treats them both with a great deal of humanity and kindness. It would be so easy to write Yamane off, or to vilify Serizawa. Yamane views Godzilla from the eyes of the scientists first dissecting the atom. He represents their idealistic, if not naive, belief that this thing MUST be studied for the good of humanity, and that to turn against it would be to turn against progress itself. And then he has his Vishnu moment when Tokyo is washed away by a sea of flames. Serizawa views Godzilla with indifference, because he is the view of the scientists *after* the bomb has been made. Heartsick, tormented, terrified, but still drawn to knowledge. But instead of seeking knowledge for the sake of it, like Yamane, he realizes what he has made is horrific and seeks to find a better use for it. A productive use, instead of as a weapon, with his own life being forfeit should he fail. And Godzilla is that which they both obsess over. Rooted in nature, born from man's sins, but acting of its own will.
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Apr 1, 2022 03:20
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Kvlt! posted:So Uktena was bad. Like wicked bad. Not fun bad. Bad bad. thanks for the heads up. SRS is the weirdest company
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Apr 1, 2022 03:43
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Kvlt! posted:Go watch paint dry for 90 minutes, its a better use of your time than Uktena. I was pretty sure this was going to be the case just based off the trailer but I wanted to wait and hear your thoughts. I've seen lovely low budget "outsider art" scifi movies before and even supported a few on Kickstarter and those guys at least put their heart into it and did the best they could but I wasn't seeing any of that here. The scale model buildings in Uktena's suitmation scenes were so amazingly low effort I was nearly embarrassed on their behalf except I was pretty sure they sucked because they simply didn't give a gently caress.
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Apr 1, 2022 03:44
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Xander B Coolridge posted:What cultural tragedy would an American Godzilla movie tap into that would make it an effective metaphor in the same vein as G'54 and Shin Godzilla? The problem is that Americans have never known the kind of existential fear that Japan did. We've never had our cities bombed. We don't know that kind of unstoppable destruction from a force beyond our control. Even with 9/11 the fear wasn't that you and everyone you know will be wiped off the face of the earth, it was more like there is someone out there who you've never met who hates you and might one day fall out of the clear blue sky and kill you. And even then, that one plane that we have to pretend crashed because hero passengers bum rushed the cockpit created an avenue for heroism. There was always the thought that you can fight back. There was never the helplessness you get in Godzilla.
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Apr 1, 2022 03:48
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While Godzilla IS very much a stand in for the bomb he also is a dinosaur and a dragon, and in some ways a victim. Akira Takarada (RIP) did say in an interview that when seeing the film for the first time, he cried at Godzilla's death, because to him, in the end he was an animal. That's just one interpretation, of course, you could also read Godzilla as actively malicious, but there's something very flexible in the central metaphor. Like there's no question that it's about the bomb and WWII and the Lucky Dragon, but the precise way it's about it is open to interpretation.
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Apr 1, 2022 03:52
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