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TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

уôðр ò шúурþòі úуûьúø



quote:

I know, I know, for many of you out there, only one of those projects matters.
I am sorry for you. They ALL matter to me.

ALL BOOKS MATTER!

Also, gently caress him for those double spaces after his periods. And if you double space, gently caress you too.

Cool kids double space

Vertically

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TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

уôðр ò шúурþòі úуûьúø



I remember someone once posted the Dance with Dragons tag from notablog. So I tried out https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/tag/the-winds-of-winter/. A few funny quotes.

2010:

quote:

The good news is that I seem to have written more than a hundred pages of THE WINDS OF WINTER already.


2012:

quote:

This is for those who complain I never blog about my work. (I do, but not often. I prefer to announce when something is finally done, rather just endless reiterations of “I am working on X, I am working on Z,” and I am never going to be one of those “I wrote three pages today” writers. Sorry, that’s not how I roll).

His previous post is literally a reiteration of "I am working on X". He didn't even write more pages, he just shifted uncompleted work to another book, and took the time to blog about it.

Loved this part:

quote:

Dunk & Egg #4, An original novella of Dunk & Egg. Working on it. Hope to have it done by worldcon. It’s scheduled to be published in

That is correct, no date there. The line just ends.

quote:

No more monkeys, please. Don’t write to me with any tempting offers or cool new projects. I am practicing saying No.
A nice bit of self awareness here. Not really worth much, since he has a performance art group and a loving railroad in his future.

2013:

Arianna Sample Chapter.

quote:

Read, enjoy, discuss, and speculate to your heart’s content… but not here, please, there are better places for that, like the forums at Westeros and Tower of the Hand. Me, I have a lot more writing to do. On WINDS, and half a dozen other projects.

Clearly that "no more projects" thing isn't working out well. Also a nice flashback to when you could post on his blog. Good Ser.

2014:
Mercy Sample Chapter

An unfair editing of his text but...

quote:

Something Old, Something New..
Hiya kids, hiya hiya hiya.
it was written a long time ago.. I've rewritten it a dozen times..
I will let the text speak for itself

the text posted:

It would be just like Mercy to sleep through her own rape.

“Mercy,” squeaked the dwarf Bobono, “Mercy, something’s amiss with my laces, my cock keeps flopping out.”

And Bobono’s cock was indeed flopping out. It was made to flop out, for the rape. What a hideous thing, Mercy thought as she knelt before the dwarf to fix him. The cock was a foot long and as thick as her arm, big enough to be seen from the highest balcony. The dyer had done a poor job with the leather, though; the thing was a mottled pink and white, with a bulbous head the color of a plum. Mercy pushed it back into Bobono’s breeches and laced him back up. “Mercy,” he sang as she tied him tight, “Mercy, Mercy, come to my room tonight and make a man of me.”

...But I am formed of darker stuff, of bones and blood and clay, twisted into this rude shape you see before you.” With that, he grabbed at her chest, fumbling for a nipple. “You have no titties. How can I rape a girl with no titties?”

She caught his nose between her thumb and forefinger and twisted. “You’ll have no nose until you get your hands off me.”

“Owwwww,” the dwarf squealed, releasing her.

“I’ll grow titties in a year or two.” Mercy rose, to tower over the little man. “But you’ll never grow another nose. You think of that, before you touch me there.”

Bobono rubbed his tender nose. “There’s no need to get so shy. I’ll be raping you soon enough.”

“Not until the second act.”

“I always give Wendeyne’s titties a nice squeeze when I rape her in The Anguish of the Archon,” the dwarf complained. “She likes it, and the pit does too. You have to please the pit.”


...

“Why? If this Izembaro wants to be hospitable, it would be rude to refuse.” He gave her nipple a tweak through the fabric of her dress, just the way the dwarf had done when she was fixing his cock for him. “Mummers are the next best thing to whores.”

“Might be, but this one is a child.”

“I am not,” lied Mercy. “I’m a maiden now.”

“Not for long,” said the comely one. “I’m Lord Rafford, sweetling, and I know just what I want. Hike up those skirts now, and lean back against that wall.”

...

He grabbed her wrist. “I’ll do the teaching. Time for your first lesson.” He pulled her hard against him and kissed her on the lips, forcing his tongue into her mouth. It was all wet and slimy, like an eel. Mercy licked it with her own tongue, then broke away from him, breathless. “Not here. Someone might see. My room’s not far, but hurry. I have to be back before the second act, or I’ll miss my rape.”

He grinned. “No fear o’ that, girl.”

...

“I know.” She slipped her hand between his legs, and felt how hard he was through the wool of his breeches.

Yeah, Aryas like 10 or 11 or some poo poo? I pretty much check out at this point. Oh well they say write what you know!


2014:

Dispels rumors that the book might be coming out.

2015:

quote:

My faithful minions have just translated the first Alayne chapter from WordStar and uploaded it to my website.

Still working on the ole wordstar. Who the gently caress is Alayne anyway. I don't remember her. (Faedit: Oh right that is Sansa )

2020:

quote:

I finished a new chapter yesterday, another one three days ago, another one the previous week.
Once again showing that he does indeed give us updates whenever he completes a few pages.

quote:

I bought a railroad…

And there we go! "Nothing to do during the pandemic but write! Why, I've written a few whole chapters, and bought a loving railroad because there is no way I'm going to spend this whole pandemic writing"

Pennsylvanian
May 23, 2010

Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky Independent Presidential Regiment
Western Liberal Democracy or Death!
I'm still stuck on the fact that George was so miffed at a 2002-era spellchecker that he types on emulated WordStar. Spellcheck indeed sucked a long time ago, but they've made progress, man.

DaysBefore
Jan 24, 2019

They're doing a whole show for Corlys Velaryon? I mean yeah he was an interesting character but even so

Also I never read that Mercy thing before oh my loving god

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
If House of the Dragons only does “well” and not gangbusters these other projects will be put on ice very quickly.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

If House of the Dragons only does “well” and not gangbusters these other projects will be put on ice very quickly.

It's going to be interesting to see if the finale season/episode of GOT just poisoned the ASoIaF brand irrevocably or if people are really that forgiving/forgetful. I have no interest in watching the show at all, but I'm still curious to see how good and/or successful it's going to be.

I have a feeling this is going to be the final outcome though. House of the Dragon does "okay", and that's not good enough for HBO so it gets capped after one season and everything else in the pipeline is immediately shut down and buried in concrete. Franchise dead.

Kuiperdolin
Sep 5, 2011

to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

That sure would make for some interesting notablogs.

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.
🐓🐓🐓✊🪧

There’s going to be so many people confused about which character is who.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



nine-gear crow posted:

It's going to be interesting to see if the finale season/episode of GOT just poisoned the ASoIaF brand irrevocably or if people are really that forgiving/forgetful. I have no interest in watching the show at all, but I'm still curious to see how good and/or successful it's going to be.

I have a feeling this is going to be the final outcome though. House of the Dragon does "okay", and that's not good enough for HBO so it gets capped after one season and everything else in the pipeline is immediately shut down and buried in concrete. Franchise dead.

And then he spends the rest of his days trying to shop "Dunk and Egg" to any and all streaming services.

Coquito Ergo Sum
Feb 9, 2021

I have to believe that the backlash against S8E3 killed the Bloodmoon show.

In other news, Glidus (one of the funnier GoT channels) did an April Fools video where he gathered up a few Ice and Fire commentators and quizzed them on "real" vs. "fake" theories. Glidus infamously kind of hates theory discussion, so it's kind of a cheeky revenge for him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOUdw0m1VU

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

nine-gear crow posted:

It's going to be interesting to see if the finale season/episode of GOT just poisoned the ASoIaF brand irrevocably or if people are really that forgiving/forgetful. I have no interest in watching the show at all, but I'm still curious to see how good and/or successful it's going to be.

I have a feeling this is going to be the final outcome though. House of the Dragon does "okay", and that's not good enough for HBO so it gets capped after one season and everything else in the pipeline is immediately shut down and buried in concrete. Franchise dead.

HBO's hurting enough that "okay" is still going to make it something they need if it's bringing back even some of the millions of people who cancelled as soon as ASOIAF ended and HBO didn't have anything to keep that audience subscribed.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Evil Fluffy posted:

HBO's hurting enough that "okay" is still going to make it something they need if it's bringing back even some of the millions of people who cancelled as soon as ASOIAF ended and HBO didn't have anything to keep that audience subscribed.

HBO is hurting? How? Going too all in on the streaming game and not being able to pay enough cash to stay competitive in that arms race?

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

HBO is hurting? How? Going too all in on the streaming game and not being able to pay enough cash to stay competitive in that arms race?

Literally--no joke, I mean literally--half their subscriber base cancelled their HBO subscriptions in the aftermath of Game of Thrones imploding and HBO having basically nothing besides Cherynobyl, which was only a five-episode miniseries, to entice people to stick around with. HBO just loving pissed away subscribers like a guy with poorly controlled diabetes over the course of 2020. 2020! The year in which everyone was locked up inside and had nothing to do but watch TV for 8 hours a day. Game of Thrones's final season hurt them that badly.

nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Apr 2, 2022

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




I don’t know what their numbers are but they have a lot of cool poo poo on there now. It was kinda dire before they added all the DC stuff though.

Max
Nov 30, 2002

I don't know how many people had a Roku during that time either, but for a while after HBO Max launched you could not view HBO Max on Roku devices for...quite a few months. I know I held off on getting a sub since our main viewing device at home involves one.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

nine-gear crow posted:

Literally--no joke, I mean literally--half their subscriber base cancelled their HBO subscriptions in the aftermath of Game of Thrones imploding and HBO having basically nothing besides Cherynobyl, which was only a five-episode miniseries, to entice people to stick around with. HBO just loving pissed away subscribers like a guy with poorly controlled diabetes over the course of 2020. 2020! The year in which everyone was locked up inside and had nothing to do but watch TV for 8 hours a day. Game of Thrones's final season hurt them that badly.

Well, people love Euphoria. Every episode takes over all the top trends on twitter. But besides that show I guess it does seem they’re back to putting out their pre-GoT lower key, less popular, but very consistent high quality stuff. Which can’t provide the coke high that GoT gave them for almost a decade.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012
That Arya chapter shocked me back then and still leaves me in awe at how utterly, thoroughly bad it is.

It's like a parody that laps itself, goes over the moon and becomes some meta incarnation of flanderization.

The Euron preview chapter at least had some decent prose and answers some stuff, even if it's still a narrative cul-de-sac and a tryhard attempt to set Euron as anything but the weak diversion he is.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
The Forsaken preview chapter is peak GRRM because due to it being a first person drug induced haze he can change his mind over whether every single detail in it was literal, symbolic, or meaningless without anyone ever knowing.

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



Invalid Validation posted:

I don’t know what their numbers are but they have a lot of cool poo poo on there now. It was kinda dire before they added all the DC stuff though.

HBO Max does have a pretty deep catalogue at this point. I find myself being surprised at just how much stuff is on there, even if the app is still garbage.

It seems like most of their recent content is stuff that gets a lot of buzz (I.e. Twitter conversation) while appealing to fairly narrow audience segments. Nothing is a breakout crossover hit like GoT was, but you cobble together enough fairly inexpensive shows like Insecure, Euphoria, Raised by Wolves, Pretty like liars, that new Lakers miniseries, etc and I guess that generates enough subscriptions and viewers to appease the stockholders for now.

They are still in need of a big tent pole show, especially after Westworld poo poo the bed. If the dragon house show doesn't take off things might get rocky real fast.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep
Is Westworld cancelled? Season 3 wasn't great but I though it still had good enough numbers for another season

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 2, 2022

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



Apparently the fourth season is supposed to be released this year, although it might have gotten delayed depending on how much the pandemic affected filming. If this isn't the final season I'll be shocked - every episode in S3 got less than a million viewers on premiere, which bodes pretty ill, especially compared to S2 which averaged 1.5m.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
HBO never needed or aimed to completely own the cultural zeitgeist before GoT. But now they’ve rode that high and don’t want a return to the Before Times despite them still being pretty drat good. And it just might kill them.

banned from Starbucks
Jul 18, 2004




HBO understands the ebb and flow of subs more than anyone. They've been doing this poo poo a lot longer than most. They're going to be just fine.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
Streaming has kind of changed the game of on demand content though. Including prestige tv content. If you want to get in that game you need to dump a TON of capital into it immediately and hope it works out. HBO is fortunate because they still have both the prestige of their name and of course an excellent back catalogue. But they are still beholden to some of the new rules now.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

banned from Starbucks posted:

HBO understands the ebb and flow of subs more than anyone. They've been doing this poo poo a lot longer than most. They're going to be just fine.

Fair point. However, I do very much recall the big giant “PLEASE DON’T CANCEL YOUR HBO SUBSCRIPTION BECAUSE OF THIS GOD WE’RE SORRY WE’RE SO SORRY” ad they aired immediately before the final episode of Game of Thrones started, which I actually burst out laughing at. So even they’re prone to just naked panic reactions from time to time.

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.
🐓🐓🐓✊🪧

House of the Dragon relies on a lot of big cinematic battles too right? I wonder how those would look considering we got about 1 a season with GoT

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



bobjr posted:

House of the Dragon relies on a lot of big cinematic battles too right? I wonder how those would look considering we got about 1 a season with GoT

"Here come the dragons!"

*title card* Six Hours Later

"There goes the dragons!"

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

quote:

Something that I noticed and no one seems to talk about is the length of the book. We were left with 20 POV characters and all of them need to start Winds at a point and end the book at another one in order to fulfill their character arcs of the book. Taking the show as a broad base, we can expect Danerys, for example, to start the novel at the Dothraki Sea, be taken to the dosh khaleen and unite all the kahls, return to Meereen and end all the wars and conflicts there and then sail to Westeros, but first stopping at Volantis (as hinted in Dance) and maybe Pentos. The same can be done to most of the other characters, and when we predict how many chapters will be needed to fulfill this amount of story the number goes way beyond 100. A youtuber already did all this math and I will leave the link of his video here if you want to watch it: < https://youtu.be/dDqb6EdP9eI>

His conclusion was that Winds will have approximately 130 chapters and I personally agree with said amount. There is no possible way for George to write less than that and still be able to create a cohesive and not rushed narrative. When translating 130 chapters into words, using the average number of words per chapter of Dance, we get about 751.000 words.

Okay, but why is that important? Fine, George is writing a book almost twice as big as A Storm of Swords, but it shouldn’t take *that* long to finish, right? Well… When we stop to analyze George’s writing pace of the last 20 years, it kind of makes the 11 year delay of Winds not that surprising. Yes, he wrote the first three books very fast, specially Storm, but since 2000 he’s been slower and writing in a different pace than before. A Feast for Crows has 46 chapters, 300.000 words and took 5 years. A Dance With Dragons has 73, 422.000 words and took 6. In total, “A Feast with Dragons” has 119 chapters and 722.000 words that took 11 years in the making, the same amount of time that The Winds of Winter, a book with the same length (if not bigger), has been taking. So, it shouldn’t be a surprise to everyone that he’s taking so long when he literally needed the same amount of time to write the previous two books just as big.

That makes sense to everything George has been telling us since he started the book. He says every year that he has written hundreds of pages but is still nowhere close to finish it. A lot of people say he is lying and fooling us all, that he gave up and is not writing anything anymore but they are just frustrated (with good reason I must say) about the eternal waiting for the book’s release. But I think that is just foolish, George is a respectable author and neither his publishers or the people that work for him would let him do something like it and I honestly find it hard to believe that this theory is somehow more reasonable for some people than the simple idea that the book might be just that big.

George also said his publishers were trying to convince him of dividing Winds like he did with Feast and Dance, but he refused the idea. It would be reasonable to expect something like that from a book so big that will definitely have to be divided in two or more volumes for printing reasons, but I can see why George refused it. In the next book, Winterfell will be taken back from the Boltons. Aegon will conquer King’s Landing and lots of Lannisters and Tyrells will probably die in the process. Euron will advance with his own maleficent plans in the south that might or might not cause the doom of the realm. Dorn will put their plots into action. The Freys will probably meet their fate thanks to Lady Stoneheart. The Starks might all return home (but I personally think that is kind of unlikely considering the weather). The book will end with Deanerys arriving at Dragonstone and there might possibly be an epilogue chapter of the Wall collapsing. A lot is going to happen everywhere and those events will have huge impact in all of the Seven Kingdoms. All the storylines are coming together and dividing it by location would no longer be possible.

“So why not release the first half he’s already finished in chronologic time?” you might ask. Well, he won’t do that because it would ruin the pacing and the storytelling. Imagine if Feast and Dance were published chronologically, the first book would have all the beginnings but no climax whatsoever, the story would simply end at a random point with all the characters still building their story arcs and we would have to wait 6 years to see that conclusion. So, in order for George to be able to release a book with beginning, middle and end, he must wait until everything is done and release it all at once. That’s why I think Winds will be released in two volumes simultaneously.

Son of a Vondruke!
Aug 3, 2012

More than Star Citizen will ever be.

bobjr posted:

House of the Dragon relies on a lot of big cinematic battles too right? I wonder how those would look considering we got about 1 a season with GoT

If (my awful) memory serves, there are quite a few big dragon fights and other battles. It's written as a historical document, so there's not much in the way of dialog between characters. It focuses more on a general overview of the big events. I imagine it will downplay all that stuff for budget reasons and lean into the political wheeling and dealing.

banned from Starbucks
Jul 18, 2004




nine-gear crow posted:

Fair point. However, I do very much recall the big giant “PLEASE DON’T CANCEL YOUR HBO SUBSCRIPTION BECAUSE OF THIS GOD WE’RE SORRY WE’RE SO SORRY” ad they aired immediately before the final episode of Game of Thrones started, which I actually burst out laughing at. So even they’re prone to just naked panic reactions from time to time.

Lmao is that online to watch anywhere?

Pennsylvanian
May 23, 2010

Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky Independent Presidential Regiment
Western Liberal Democracy or Death!

bobjr posted:

House of the Dragon relies on a lot of big cinematic battles too right? I wonder how those would look considering we got about 1 a season with GoT

Supposedly, but lol that the GoT show has a throwaway line from Tywin that dragons hadn't been used since Aegon's Conquest. They can't lead with the Blockbuster poo poo, though. They need likeable characters and engaging drama, or it's just going to go the way of other fantasy adaptations like Eragon or Golden Compass.

RoboChrist 9000
Dec 14, 2006

Mater Dolorosa

Pennsylvanian posted:

They need likeable characters and engaging drama

Oops

Coquito Ergo Sum
Feb 9, 2021


I think the poster most likely nailed down why we'll never get Winds. George's storytelling got way more luxurious in Feast and Dance to the point where in order for Tyrion, Victarion, and Dany to even meet, much less make their way to Westeros together without feeling rushed, it would take over a thousand pages.

I feel like the logistics of the Myreeneese Knot are overstated. George probably figured that out years ago, but like lots of Epic Fantasy Writers it seems fairly simple in his mind until he sits down and realizes how much effort actually needs to go into reaching his story points at a satisfying pace. Unless he wants to make the rest of his major storylines into very tongue-and-cheek short stories that tie together in the final book, those stories would easily push Winds past 2,000 pages altogether.

I think for George, a hundred pages isn't hard. An amateur writer can fart out a hundred page fanfic fairly easily, and I think he can fart out a hundred pages of people walking around hallways. I figure he's got hundreds and hundreds of pages of Winds done like he's claimed, but that what he's finished barely constitutes an opening act and he knows that he hosed up really bad by releasing two doorstops about people walking around feeling sad.

On another note, this is 100% anecdotal, but one type of story I see going around more and more is about book stores not being able to sell GRRM books. Ice and Fire and even his earlier stuff were flying off the shelf for years, but the finale of the show and the memes of George doing anything but writing Winds of Winter has killed any interest in his work, and his publisher must be feeling it. I've seen photos of book stores boxing up brand new editions of Ice and Fire to give to used bookstores. That's loving wild.

Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Apr 4, 2022

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

banned from Starbucks posted:

Lmao is that online to watch anywhere?

I don't think so, sadly. Though it was blatantly obvious what it was trying to do. It was a brief, glorious, once in a lifetime glimpse at a television network having a panic attack in real time.

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017

My dumbass opinions are only outweighed by my racism.

No one forgot that I exist to defend violent cops, champion chaining down immigrants, and have trash opinions on cooking.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

HBO is hurting? How? Going too all in on the streaming game and not being able to pay enough cash to stay competitive in that arms race?

I truly wish I could get all my favorite shows on one platform. We've Netflix and Amazon prime, but drat I wish I could get Yellowstone and Outlander on them. gently caress subbing to a channel for one series though. Much less a hot mess like GoT.

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Hasselblad posted:

I truly wish I could get all my favorite shows on one platform. We've Netflix and Amazon prime, but drat I wish I could get Yellowstone and Outlander on them. gently caress subbing to a channel for one series though. Much less a hot mess like GoT.

My dude have you heard of Plex and :filez:?

TERFherder
Apr 26, 2010

уôðр ò шúурþòі úуûьúø



TK-42-1 posted:

My dude have you heard of Plex and :filez:?

For real this. We only pay for netflix because my extended family uses it. I borrow my sisters HBO / HULU when I need it, but mostly i just filez stuff, which costs me I dunno, $8 per month for pretty much everything I feel like putting time into. And that includes buying my way into .nzb sites with eternal VIP passes or whatever. It's not perfect for grabbing older stuff, but for anything that came out in the past year, it is pretty solid.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

But I think that is just foolish, George is a respectable author and neither his publishers or the people that work for him would let him do something like it and I honestly find it hard to believe that this theory is somehow more reasonable for some people than the simple idea

Yeah, I was onboard until this point. This person clearly never had to see "Meanwhile back at the wall" and realize they had waited years for a half completed book. Pretending the GRRM has some writers integrity that is preventing him from releasing just half the book - that kind of makes me laugh. Not a gleeful laugh. Just a sad sad laugh in a part of me that died a decade ago.

Coquito Ergo Sum posted:

releasing two doorstops about people walking around feeling sad.

Thank you for writing this, it legit made me smile.

No Pants
Dec 10, 2000

Mat Cauthon posted:

They are still in need of a big tent pole show, especially after Westworld poo poo the bed. If the dragon house show doesn't take off things might get rocky real fast.

if we go by dollars spent, their next big bet is probably their the last of us adaptation.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
Westworld season 2 was seriously one of the largest face plants in TV history.

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Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep
It was pretty bad.

Season 3 was much better, imo. But also felt like a different show. More like a spin off than another season

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