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Telsa Cola posted:One thing that I imagine would cause a lot of fuckery is that Ukrainian tanks run a crew of three because they mostly (all?) have an autoloader. Outside of the Soviet derived tanks, all NATO tanks do not have an autoloader and so run a crew of 4. If only they had a bunch of volunteers that need to be trained up and formed up... Oh, wait, they do.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:25
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OddObserver posted:If only they had a bunch of volunteers that need to be trained up and formed up... Oh, wait, they do. I just want to call a little bit on this, it's not easy to man a tank. It's not something you can train in within a month. Especially being a loader. I mean if the loader isn't that good of a soldier and his hand slip or he fucks up in any way the tank is effectively dead. From what I know it's extremely easy to harm your hand in a tank. Expect a lot of people to gently caress themselves up beyond immediate medical attention during training as well as usage. So you're going to need a constant flow of loaders which means there won't be unit cohesion. There's more to this than you think.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:29
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OddObserver posted:If only they had a bunch of volunteers that need to be trained up and formed up... Oh, wait, they do. Cool, now they need to be trained on the vehicle that your armed forces aren't super familar with during a war time invasion of your country, your standard training for tanks probably doesnt cut it because it doesnt account for the additional loader role so you either need to work that out or have outside advisors help so you can do it effectively. That's going to take time. Plus the logistical support for the one extra person is going to add up fast. Do you bring back the currently deployed tankers where possible and have them trained on them instead so their experience might help them bridge the gap? Can you afford to pull said people off the line? How well does the training on use of Warsaw tanks carry over to Nato tanks? Is there enough of a difference that training people on one group is going to cause issues if they have to use the other group? Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 05:35
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Telsa Cola posted:One thing that I imagine would cause a lot of fuckery is that Ukrainian tanks run a crew of three because they mostly (all?) have an autoloader. Outside of the Soviet derived tanks, all(?) NATO tanks do not have an autoloader and so run a crew of 4. Training a dude to load shells into a huge gun seems like one of the less challenging aspects of sending western tanks to Ukraine. Just spray paint the shape of whatever it's designed to kill on the shell casing, they'll work it out.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:37
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I think we should teach the Russian soldiers to code so they don't have to wage war.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:37
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I just want to call a little bit on this, it's not easy to man a tank. It's not something you can train in within a month. Especially being a loader. I mean if the loader isn't that good of a soldier and his hand slip or he fucks up in any way the tank is effectively dead. From what I know it's extremely easy to harm your hand in a tank. Expect a lot of people to gently caress themselves up beyond immediate medical attention during training as well as usage. So you're going to need a constant flow of loaders which means there won't be unit cohesion. Which is why you start doing it early rather than wait till it's too late while saying nothing can be done. Plus I think Western tanks can fit non-dwarfs.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:42
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:It is kinda fortuitous that American corruption takes the form of "MIC lobbies for unnecessarily large procurement orders in influential districts/money gets thrown into boondoggle experimental systems" rather than "poo poo just gets stolen." At least the stuff you get at the end mostly works and is available for action. Like it's been the better part of a century of us buying goodwill by giving weapons to other nations. In order for that to work it helps for it to be poo poo that works, bonus if it's actually useful. The MIC is evil and hosed up in a lot of ways, but it hasn't quite fallen to like Silicon Valley levels of useless products and broken promises. Even the F35, as pointless a waste of money as it is, was eventually hammered into something actually pretty good over time. Related to that, there is a lot of [Evil, self-serving] interest in giving Ukraine whatever it is feasible for them to use that doesn't jeopardize American security [Because we get a semi killing Russians and anything we give Ukraine we need to replace for big money], so you can count on America doing whatever it can to both personally give Ukraine whatever it can and also to make deals with other nations to replace stuff they give Ukraine [Because again, love of killing and love of profit]. Which can buy time to train them on other equipment we give them [Which then kills Russians and needs to be replaced, serving the almighty procurement cycle.].
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Apr 9, 2022 05:43
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OddObserver posted:Which is why you start doing it early rather than wait till it's too late while saying nothing can be done. Plus I think Western tanks can fit non-dwarfs. Or you could understand the logistical and organizational nightmare that this would cause and just have whoever backfill the armor inventory of ex-Warsaw pact now Nato countries which have tank inventories that the Ukranians are familar with. This is already (slowly) happening but promising to backfill countries inventories would likely speed up the gift giving. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 05:44
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KitConstantine posted:I'm saying it is impressive, but it's **ALSO* a sign that Russia is doing a bad job. Two things can simultaneously be true, this is one of those things. yes how do you think urban battles go exactly? Unless you can basically capture them before anyone has realized the fight is even on, at best they're a huge slog and blackhole of manpower and resources.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:45
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gay picnic defence posted:Training a dude to load shells into a huge gun seems like one of the less challenging aspects of sending western tanks to Ukraine. Just spray paint the shape of whatever it's designed to kill on the shell casing, they'll work it out. It sounds simple, but remember your Clausewitz: "Everything in war is very simple. But the simplest thing is difficult.'"
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Apr 9, 2022 05:47
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the popes toes posted:Strange vibes from the vid, bunch of Tuvans getting a speech and trundling off to the death buses for the front. At a show that's being headlined by a guy who claims to be the leading light of Tuvan throat singing outside of their people, has traveled to the lands of the Tuvan since 1998 to learn to sing and he just shared with me his love of the land and its people. man this war is somehow making the world feel smaller than ever 
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Apr 9, 2022 05:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I think we should teach the Russian soldiers to code so they don't have to wage war. New plan: We airdrop O'reily books on Russian positions, then in a month they'll all flee to Kazakhstan like the rest of Russia's IT sector.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:52
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I wish some of you guys advocating for this could actually loving try to load a tank. You know what go ask goons in platoons about hand related injuries and tanks please. I honestly this is not an easy thing to do and it takes a ton of training and logistics to make effective. And that's not just training the individual soldier that's also training the people training the soldier. And they require training before they even start training. I know I'm using the word training a lot but seriously this is not something that's easy. You need a string of trainers who have all been slowly improving on their methods and then give that to the individual soldier who can come back and train people on what he learned. It's not easy to learn new weapon systems.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:53
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I just want to call a little bit on this, it's not easy to man a tank. It's not something you can train in within a month. Especially being a loader. I mean if the loader isn't that good of a soldier and his hand slip or he fucks up in any way the tank is effectively dead. From what I know it's extremely easy to harm your hand in a tank. Expect a lot of people to gently caress themselves up beyond immediate medical attention during training as well as usage. So you're going to need a constant flow of loaders which means there won't be unit cohesion. I honestly think the larger obstacle here is maintenance/repair. Teaching people how to fix the tank takes much longer than teaching them how to drive or shoot it, and just because a mechanic knows the T-72 inside and out doesn't mean they can repair an Abrams.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:53
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EggsAisle posted:I honestly think the larger obstacle here is maintenance/repair. Teaching people how to fix the tank takes much longer than teaching them how to drive or shoot it, and just because a mechanic knows the T-72 inside and out doesn't mean they can repair an Abrams. Yes this is the other side effect, to make these things effective you basically need US mechanics within Russian artillery range.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:54
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Deteriorata posted:If they do take Crimea back, they will largely roll in unopposed, because Russia will have no fighting force left. Russia just made this mistake.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:55
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the popes toes posted:Strange vibes from the vid, bunch of Tuvans getting a speech and trundling off to the death buses for the front. https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1511948583259545600 yeah, thats a not a good sign. like obviously people age faster and poo poo but if your sending someone my dads age off to die in some BTR, your not doing so hot. i assume part of the reason they are wearing masks is to hide the ages, either really young kids or old loving men and dudes who probably wouldnt qualify at all.
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Apr 9, 2022 05:58
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gay picnic defence posted:Training a dude to load shells into a huge gun seems like one of the less challenging aspects of sending western tanks to Ukraine. Just spray paint the shape of whatever it's designed to kill on the shell casing, they'll work it out. Doing it without killing yourself/your crew actually takes a lot of training and practice
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Apr 9, 2022 05:59
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I don't think Ukraine really wants to recover Crimea. They want to be able to threaten to recover Crimea. If that occurs, real talks can begin.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:00
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the popes toes posted:I don't think Ukraine really wants to recover Crimea. They want to be able to threaten to recover Crimea. If that occurs, real talks can begin. this. i think they want to take back the 2014 places if possible and take back most if not all the poo poo russia's has taken since the invasion but Crimea is a bridge to far. maybe if russia just implodes bad enough they can take it at some point but for now. no.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:02
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Mystic Mongol posted:Russia just made this mistake. I think they worded that awkwardly. I'm pretty sure they meant "The only way Ukraine takes Crimea back is if Russian forces are so exhausted they don't have anyone left to defend Crimea."
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Apr 9, 2022 06:03
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Ukraine has a lot of rebuilding to do after this war, and Crimea probably needs East Berlin levels of rehabilitation after 8 years of Russian rule before it can be reintegrated into the Ukrainian system.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:06
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EggsAisle posted:I honestly think the larger obstacle here is maintenance/repair. Teaching people how to fix the tank takes much longer than teaching them how to drive or shoot it, and just because a mechanic knows the T-72 inside and out doesn't mean they can repair an Abrams. It's already been said repeatedly in this very thread that training the crew, loader included, is relatively simple and can be done fairly quickly - the real problem is training the much bigger, more complex team of maintenance people necessary to keep a fancy NATO tank running. That being said, while publicly there's no commitments to send tanks I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of backroom discussions right now between the Ukrainian government and Western countries over the feasibility and details of setting up a training and logistical pipeline for NATO tanks going into Ukraine. The whole "replacing EE stock with Abrams and sending their old Soviet stuff to Ukraine" trick will work as a stop-gap but there's a limit to how many Soviet tanks NATO can get its hands on, and if they want to send anything else in the future they'll likely want to set up the groundwork now instead of waiting for later. Guessing they'd rather not announce that politically in case there's any delays in setting up said pipelines that cause criticism or raise false public hopes. Wouldn't be too surprised if the delivery of NATO tanks and aircraft is only announced once everything's ready and the tanks can roll straight into Ukraine and battle, if it's ever announced.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:08
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Der Kyhe posted:I'd like to know how the Belarussian people are responding to this. They had no agency here and their stupid combovover of a dictator caused all these sanctions to fall also on their lives. Got a belorussian coworker, from what I've heard he's spouted a lot of pro-russian propaganda during coffee breaks. Supportive of putin and lukashenko, buying into the russian side of things basically. He watches a lot of news from that region (belarus, moldova, hungary etc etc) that none of us understands which I think is influencing him. Heard he was taking leave from work to go back to belarus.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:33
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Tomn posted:It's already been said repeatedly in this very thread that training the crew, loader included, is relatively simple and can be done fairly quickly - the real problem is training the much bigger, more complex team of maintenance people necessary to keep a fancy NATO tank running. Ah. Well, there it is one more time for the people in the back. quote:That being said, while publicly there's no commitments to send tanks I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of backroom discussions right now between the Ukrainian government and Western countries over the feasibility and details of setting up a training and logistical pipeline for NATO tanks going into Ukraine. The whole "replacing EE stock with Abrams and sending their old Soviet stuff to Ukraine" trick will work as a stop-gap but there's a limit to how many Soviet tanks NATO can get its hands on, and if they want to send anything else in the future they'll likely want to set up the groundwork now instead of waiting for later. Guessing they'd rather not announce that politically in case there's any delays in setting up said pipelines that cause criticism or raise false public hopes. Wouldn't be too surprised if the delivery of NATO tanks and aircraft is only announced once everything's ready and the tanks can roll straight into Ukraine and battle, if it's ever announced. Agreed on all counts. I won't expect to hear about something like that for months, at least; even if they got started tomorrow, there's only so many mechanics Ukraine can immediately spare.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:38
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A guy escaped Mariupol by swimming 2.5 miles. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/ukraine-escape-from-mariupol-man-swam-eussian-terror
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Apr 9, 2022 06:56
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His Divine Shadow posted:Got a belorussian coworker, from what I've heard he's spouted a lot of pro-russian propaganda during coffee breaks. Supportive of putin and lukashenko, buying into the russian side of things basically. He watches a lot of news from that region (belarus, moldova, hungary etc etc) that none of us understands which I think is influencing him. Heard he was taking leave from work to go back to belarus. My (American) Belarusian friends and their families despise Luka with a fiery passion. My main Belarus friend has been thoroughly disgusted by Luka's willingness to be Putin's vassal and enable the invasion they way he has. But they're Los Angeles expats and most of their family has been long immigrated since the like 90s or earlier.
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Apr 9, 2022 06:57
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Miracle Mike posted:I'm Italian and honestly ignorant about history, and I was puzzled too when I heard about this, but turns out that in that battle the Alpini (which is a beloved army corp famous for their hat embellished with a single bird plume and their annual meetings fueled with grappa -a superhalcoolic) fought to their death to defend the other corps during their retreat after the failed nazi-fascist occupation of Russia. They stood their ground, sacrificing themselves, to give the others the possibility to flee and return home alive. Many died but some returned and joined the Resistance, although honestly not all of them abandoned the fascist regime unfortunately. A famous survivor of that battle, Mario Rigoni Stern, who came back refusing to continue serving the fascists and thus was deported, wrote "the russians were fighting a righteous battle, the germans were still believing and fighting for their reich, we were just fighting to try and save our lives". The parliament wanted to honour the dead soldiers who were fighting not with the goal to conquer but to permit the others to return home alive, and officially made this battle (part of a lost and wrong campaign) part of the history of the corps. This is supposed to be in contrast with the fascist aggressive campaign which put them in those circumstances in the first place. Given that I live in an Alpini rich province i feel like i need to add my 2c too and also to explain what this law is about, since that article romances the reasons for that law(and so does Miracle Mike but certainly not for the same reason as our vulture journos). Alpini regiments are geographically homogeneous, localized and staffed by service members from specific mountainous regions, which has the effect to create sizable amounts of veterans which reside in that specific county. Every year, each Alpini regiment veteran union will do a parade in their county, organized and paid for by the veterans union. This law is to take the onus in managing the parades and paying for it from the veterans union to the government. Alpini veteran union has a lot of grab in those regions and since they are all pensioners, they are certain votes. That's the gist of it.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:29
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Tomn posted:The whole "replacing EE stock with Abrams and sending their old Soviet stuff to Ukraine" trick will work as a stop-gap but there's a limit to how many Soviet tanks NATO can get its hands on, The solution is obviously to combine the powers of capitalism and corruption - offer to buy Russian tanks and hand them over to Ukraine. We've already seen a start of such grassroots campaign by Ukraine - addressing tankers directly , but we obviously need to think bigger. mmkay fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 07:44
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mmkay posted:The solution is obviously to combine the powers of capitalism and corruption - offer to buy Russian tanks and hand them over to Ukraine. Worst Captain Planet ever.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:46
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quote:“They came and did whatever they wanted” in the zone around the station, Mr. Simyonov said. Despite efforts by him and other Ukrainian nuclear engineers and technicians who remained at the site through the occupation, working round-the-clock and unable to leave except for one shift change in late March, the entrenching continued. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/world/europe/ukraine-chernobyl.html Oopsies. Could be the origin of the radiation poisoning rumors that were circulating.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:51
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My Belorussian coworker is in their mid-20, already had many friends from school end up beaten or in prison from earlier protests. Now they were scared of being drafted, absolutely noone buys government propaganda, and has zero desire to go fight in Ukraine. Belorussian diaspora in Poland works very hard in helping refugees.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:57
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Ola posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/world/europe/ukraine-chernobyl.html I'm bad at science, just how bad is picking up a source of cobalt-60 with your bare hands? Is that like immediately catastrophic or like 'you're gonna get cancer in 10 years' sort of thing.
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Apr 9, 2022 07:59
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The Tuvan-trained throat singing musician I am listening to right now reminded me that Defense Minister Shoigu is Tuvan. Thinking about that map that showed where stuff is getting mailed home, I wonder how many troops in this invasion aren't western Slavs. I am getting an impression that Vanya's policy of invasion recognizes that western Russians might find all of this a little too close to home.
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Apr 9, 2022 08:01
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half life is 5 years so shouldnt be too bad after 30
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Apr 9, 2022 08:02
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JesusSinfulHands posted:I'm bad at science, just how bad is picking up a source of cobalt-60 with your bare hands? Is that like immediately catastrophic or like 'you're gonna get cancer in 10 years' sort of thing.  it's not great.
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Apr 9, 2022 08:04
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DeliciousPatriotism posted:The Tuvan-trained throat singing musician I am listening to right now reminded me that Defense Minister Shoigu is Tuvan. It’s been fairly established that the Russian army consists mainly of Eastern minorities. Ethnic Russians are able to avoid being drafted.
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Apr 9, 2022 08:07
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Ola posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/world/europe/ukraine-chernobyl.html There's a twitter bot account that monitored the radiation safety level at Chernobyl with auto-updating status fed from the instruments surrounding the planet. Shortly after Russia descended on the area it went from 1.1944912434084074% safe to 0% safe, and has not updated since February 24th, when the Russian troops destroyed all the safety monitoring equipment. loving imbeciles, all of them.
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Apr 9, 2022 08:10
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JesusSinfulHands posted:I'm bad at science, just how bad is picking up a source of cobalt-60 with your bare hands? Is that like immediately catastrophic or like 'you're gonna get cancer in 10 years' sort of thing. There's a whole IAEA publication about a belarusian man entering a room with a fresh cobalt-60 source in it: https://www.iaea.org/publications/4712/the-radiological-accident-at-the-irradiation-facility-in-nesvizh Depending on how long the soldier held the source and how fresh the source was, he might end up with anything from mild burns to losing a hand.
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Apr 9, 2022 08:10
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JesusSinfulHands posted:I'm bad at science, just how bad is picking up a source of cobalt-60 with your bare hands? Is that like immediately catastrophic or like 'you're gonna get cancer in 10 years' sort of thing. Closer to the former. Co-60 emits gamma rays, which are very penetrating, and Co-60 slugs are used as radiation sources for imaging, cancer treatment, and sterilization. Larger sources for sterilization give you a lethal dose in the shortest amount of time, but a smaller source (like one used to calibrate geiger counters) can be carried in a pocket or soldier's pack, 1/4" from their skin, for days at a time. The latter would give one a dose that will cause serious cell necrosis near the exposure site, which can cause gangrene, organ death, bone marrow bleaching and eventually death, if the exposure site isn't a limb that can be amputated.
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