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https://twitter.com/chasewrites/status/1522193692920057856?s=20&t=mojl8HHY4_8xXJv2Iw9SJg So, which suit is the quintessential Jonko Unit? I'm leaning towards Doan's Off-Model Zaku.
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May 5, 2022 15:34
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ninjewtsu posted:Planes don't have body language Said the guy who's never seen Super Wings.
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May 5, 2022 15:48
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Planes make up for lack of body language by painting themselves up with pinups and shark noses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5dnqGZNO44 Tell me that ME-410 doesn't have personality. It's so happy! Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 15:57 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 15:50
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ninjewtsu posted:Planes don't have body language The X-32 absolutely has body language, and it’s glorious:  
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May 5, 2022 16:19
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This is what peak performance looks like.
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May 5, 2022 16:35
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The A-10 Warthog can have predatory looking nose art, with a toothy grin that suggest "I'm coming for you, fucker!", but the X-32 should just have it's nose done up like a whale shark to close out that happy look. Get Eiichiro Oda to do it.
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May 5, 2022 16:36
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Face it, even if Gundam were about fighter jets instead it would still devolve into Newtype aura battles
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May 5, 2022 17:11
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I don't think anyone was even complaining about Newtypes or their prevalance in the resolution of conflicts? 
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May 5, 2022 17:14
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Gundam is about making up a new type of guy to get mad at
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May 5, 2022 17:22
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tsob posted:I don't think anyone was even complaining about Newtypes or their prevalance in the resolution of conflicts? You haven't talked to my brother. He really liked the first Gundam movie but really didn't like how the Newtype stuff took over towards the end of the other two.
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May 5, 2022 17:35
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Arc Hammer posted:You haven't talked to my brother. He really liked the first Gundam movie but really didn't like how the Newtype stuff took over towards the end of the other two. Oh, I'm aware those complaints exist in general; it's just no-one was talking about them in this thread, so it seems weird to come in and start refuting it when people are discussing something else.
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May 5, 2022 17:38
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Arc Hammer posted:You haven't talked to my brother. He really liked the first Gundam movie but really didn't like how the Newtype stuff took over towards the end of the other two. Tell your brother I said he's a dumbass.
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May 5, 2022 18:19
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War and Pieces posted:Face it, even if Gundam were about fighter jets instead it would still devolve into Newtype aura battles Who cares
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May 5, 2022 18:24
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Sorry, I know the answer is "that guy's brother" I'm being rhetorical
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May 5, 2022 18:25
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Artum posted:Tell your brother I said he's a dumbass. I'm gonna make him watch Unicorn and experience the magic carpet ride to oblivion.
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May 5, 2022 18:25
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Arc Hammer posted:I'm gonna make him watch Unicorn and experience the magic carpet ride to oblivion. Nobody deserves being forced to watch unicorn
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May 5, 2022 18:27
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I want a show that gets really loving in depth on the psychology and inner life of someone becoming a newtype instead of having most of it be implied through trippy visuals and sudden outburts Give me newtype deathnote I want to get really waist deep in newtype bullshit
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May 5, 2022 18:28
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Gaius Marius posted:Nobody deserves being forced to watch unicorn I do, when I've done my chores and deserve a reward
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May 5, 2022 18:29
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Gundam: Portrait of a Newtype as a Young Pilot.
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May 5, 2022 18:39
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tsob posted:I think that's the majority opinion when it comes to giant robot stories, or at least, what the sponsors paying for it and producers overseeing it think is the majority opinion. It wouldn't be my opinion though. Or at least, it's not my opinion on all giant robot shows. In a cheesy show all about the heroics of giant robots like Getter, Godannar, Gunbuster (and maybe even those dirty shows that dare not start with a "G") then sure, make giant robots the center of the story and universe, and have everything revolve around them. I don't think it works as well in a show like 0079 that tries to be about using giant robots as military platforms though. They really should be just one platform among many there, and even 0079 tended to overemphasize how important giant robots are; especially once Amuro has gotten relatively skilled and things have shifted towards larger battles (Odessa on, basically). The biggest problem with this is that directors already sturggle with just giant robots in terms of divvying up the action between characters and making what's happening clear. I'd love to see more combined arms type stuff in gundam, but think of the shift from Build Fighters to Tri, adding the extra people made the action feel all over the place, unbalanced, and unfulfilling. Making a fight that's Gundam needs to fight Three Zakus is more easy to direct than Gundam needs to fight 1 Zaku, but he's being shelled half a kilometer out by artillery, and motorized cavalry is attempting to breach the White Base hull with explosives. It's hard to juggle a battle at that scale with that many moving parts and make it coherent. Even massive movie directors with gigantic budgets struggle with it massively, and when you get a director like Micheal Mann who can juggle all those pieces e.g. the club scene in Collateral or all the parts of Heat that constantly get ripped off. One thing holding back Mecha anime from really evolving is that the direction seems pretty stuck in it's ways. I was thinking about Gance's Napoleon which had the battle scenes projected onto three stitched together screens to get across the size of Napoleonic warfare, and De Palma's Sisters which uses an actual split screen to show to POV's at once to rachet up the tension. Even Tomino's use of the pop up character bubbles that allow you to keep your eyes on the characters, their thoughts, and the actual action going on would be useful in making larger scale battles. It's too bad the industry is so conservative right now, cause you could theoretically do some incredibly interesting stuff with the advent of CG instead of just making anime but worse
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May 5, 2022 18:52
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Arc Hammer posted:Gundam: Portrait of a Newtype as a Young Pilot. Portrait of a Newtype on Fire
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May 5, 2022 18:53
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An issue of Newtype magazine
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May 5, 2022 18:56
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IBO did a pretty good job shaking up the usual mecha combat paradigm. The Mobile Worker tanks had their place in battle and ship to ship combat was way more close range than other AU's because of just how durable warships were in the PD setting. It was a nice change of pace from the usual beam broadsides to see Eugene use the Isaribi as a battering ram.
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May 5, 2022 19:02
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Gaius Marius posted:The biggest problem with this is that directors already sturggle with just giant robots in terms of divvying up the action between characters and making what's happening clear. I'd love to see more combined arms type stuff in gundam, but think of the shift from Build Fighters to Tri, adding the extra people made the action feel all over the place, unbalanced, and unfulfilling. Making a fight that's Gundam needs to fight Three Zakus is more easy to direct than Gundam needs to fight 1 Zaku, but he's being shelled half a kilometer out by artillery, and motorized cavalry is attempting to breach the White Base hull with explosives. It's hard to juggle a battle at that scale with that many moving parts and make it coherent. Even massive movie directors with gigantic budgets struggle with it massively, and when you get a director like Micheal Mann who can juggle all those pieces e.g. the club scene in Collateral or all the parts of Heat that constantly get ripped off. Using the Build series as our example, Try had mostly terrible choreography but had one or two good team fights(the Megashiki team comes to mind). Divers also had poor choreography for the most part, but the prologue, the Divers' first fight when they formed their force, and the La Vie En Crab assault were all fights that worked well and had a lot of moving parts; the force fight even included an artillery barrage. Re:Rise also featured a lot of good teamwork. It's not a terribly easy set of plates to spin, but even poor shows managed to succeed at it sometimes.
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May 5, 2022 19:03
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With Pulitzer being about how Amuro was eulogized as some brave Federation army hero for propaganda purposes, I wish we saw the insanely bad propaganda itself Just a "historical" radio drama that's like "ON THE LAST EPISODE: AFTER FINALLY FREEING COLONY BABEULON SIX FROM ENEMY CONTROL, SERGEANT REY IS ASSAULTED BY ZEON'S MYSTERIOUS NINJA FORCE. CAN THE GUNDAM'S BEAM GUITAR TURN THE TIDE????" and cut to Actual Amuro who's hospitalized because he forgot to eat for 4 days
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May 5, 2022 20:37
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Amuro as a Fist of the North Star style character going around in a super robot style Gundam with attacks more similar to Gunbuster than the RX-78-2, wiping out fleets on his own and even doing things like destroying the Colony Laser single handed like he was originally planned to do. You could even play something like the originally planned ending as a joke ending, with Amuro entering A Baoa Qu to personally confront Gihren, then killing him before scaring off his guards.
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May 5, 2022 20:49
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I like that in 0083 Rebellion the Dendrobium gets called a mobile armor by the zeon remnants while I don’t think the federation ever does, shows a difference in their design philosophies. I think the federation generally goes for big armor the mobile suit docks in rather than mobile armor as well, like the Penelope (although I think of the Penelope as the successor to the super gundam vs the xi as the successor of the zeta). The To Sell Toys answer is that stuff you dock in lets you have the mobile armor be an accessory to the gundam.
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May 5, 2022 21:02
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The Psycho gundam is a mobile armour.
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May 5, 2022 21:19
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Arc Hammer posted:IBO did a pretty good job shaking up the usual mecha combat paradigm. The Mobile Worker tanks had their place in battle and ship to ship combat was way more close range than other AU's because of just how durable warships were in the PD setting. It was a nice change of pace from the usual beam broadsides to see Eugene use the Isaribi as a battering ram. You also had a couple of battles where Tekkadan acted as marines, since ship to ship fighting was best conducted by raiding teams instead of Mobile Suits. We also got one of the vanishingly rare times a battleship killed a Gundam, instead of the other way around. tsob posted:Amuro as a Fist of the North Star style character going around in a super robot style Gundam with attacks more similar to Gunbuster than the RX-78-2, wiping out fleets on his own and even doing things like destroying the Colony Laser single handed like he was originally planned to do. You could even play something like the originally planned ending as a joke ending, with Amuro entering A Baoa Qu to personally confront Gihren, then killing him before scaring off his guards. If you really wanted to play with things, you could also add in the stories from underground magazines that emphasize Amuro's Newtype status that the Federation is trying to cover up. Just him force choking Zabis, predicting the future years in advance, healing the sick with a wave of his hands... (Of course, the Federation seems to be more low-key for its propaganda than Zeon. They really prefer to have people not stand out at all when possible.)
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May 5, 2022 21:21
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tsob posted:Amuro as a Fist of the North Star style character going around in a super robot style Gundam with attacks more similar to Gunbuster than the RX-78-2, wiping out fleets on his own and even doing things like destroying the Colony Laser single handed like he was originally planned to do. You could even play something like the originally planned ending as a joke ending, with Amuro entering A Baoa Qu to personally confront Gihren, then killing him before scaring off his guards. Hell yes Bright is barrel-chested, constantly shirtless and either explicitly has no son OR Hathaway gets replaced by an evil spacenoid clone chiasaur11 posted:If you really wanted to play with things, you could also add in the stories from underground magazines that emphasize Amuro's Newtype status that the Federation is trying to cover up. Just him force choking Zabis, predicting the future years in advance, healing the sick with a wave of his hands... I don't think they'd emphasize the newtype thing until the Axis Shock, where Amuro is just SO LOYAL to the Federation that it causes a miracle
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May 5, 2022 21:38
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Yinlock posted:Hell yes 100% accurate footage of the White Base:
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May 5, 2022 22:30
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Cleretic posted:https://twitter.com/chasewrites/status/1522193692920057856?s=20&t=mojl8HHY4_8xXJv2Iw9SJg Virtue is pretty jonko, my favorite jonko
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May 5, 2022 22:43
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Unicorn is still mostly good and planes are still boring
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May 5, 2022 23:06
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TheKingofSprings posted:Virtue is pretty jonko, my favorite jonko Green refrigerator dude, though. Obviously the Zaku is the archetype, but I think the Man Rodi is fairly Jonko Unit.
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May 5, 2022 23:08
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I'm sorry it's Jahannaman
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May 5, 2022 23:09
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chiasaur11 posted:If you really wanted to play with things, you could also add in the stories from underground magazines that emphasize Amuro's Newtype status that the Federation is trying to cover up. Just him force choking Zabis, predicting the future years in advance, healing the sick with a wave of his hands... In thinking about it a bit more, I'd love for a special consisting of both Federation and Zeon propaganda movies about the events of the original show from both perspectives, with either the entire cast of the original show somehow contriving to see it at once (somewhat akin to the main cast of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" seeing a play about their adventures up to that point), or, perhaps even better, a commentary track where the entire cast watch both and just comment on them like director commentaries. I know the Nanoha films did something similar, with Nanoha and Fate commenting in character as the TV versions of themselves seeing the movie versions and acting like the movies are idealized tellings in universe. Which is a really fun idea.
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May 5, 2022 23:11
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Kanos posted:Using the Build series as our example, Try had mostly terrible choreography but had one or two good team fights(the Megashiki team comes to mind). Divers also had poor choreography for the most part, but the prologue, the Divers' first fight when they formed their force, and the La Vie En Crab assault were all fights that worked well and had a lot of moving parts; the force fight even included an artillery barrage. Re:Rise also featured a lot of good teamwork. I can't speak on the post TRI build series, but I think every find has a least one good battle in it. But if we're taking Tsob's point as having a combined element to the fighting even the basics of framing a shot become far more difficult. We want the object to be framed well but what level do you put the camera if your including a giant robot and a tank on the same shot. The use of stock footage poorly and limited dynamism in combat paired with quick cuts can already make fights seem like a few robots in bubbles shooting at each other instead of an actual battle zone that the robots are moving through. Becoming untethered to the geographic* space you're in is something that people don't tend to notice actively but can really set people off in an instinctual way. Of course that can be used intentionally like Kubrick in The Shining or how Kanye fucks up the timing of the notes on On Sight to set you off, and get you in the correct mood for Yeezus, angry. Space battles already have this problem. The best ones are where you have enough information from a grounding object to orientate yourself. e.g. a colony, debris field, the moon, or even a large ship. When you can tell. "now they're going under the ship" or "around the left of the colony" you can instinctually keep track of action. Some of seeds fights do the opposite where it becomes nothing but robots shooting beams In a vacuum. The sense of geography and cause and effect is lost, and the fights end up feeling dull and confusing. I think being forced to cut between perspectives with a more combined arms approach would strain the directors as they are too much. If they'd be more open to experimentation I think they could do it. You can see a world where a quick pop in shows artillery firing while a MS pilot gets word to move over the radio. A scene where the battle audio is muted while the commander's discuss their plans to give the audience conceptual understanding of what's going to happen. Or using a swing around shot to show a plane diving at an MS only for the camera to swing around and come in on the MS gunning it down. What Gundam needs is for the show runners to build a scale model for every battlefield and run through it with models a few times to make everything Gucci.
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May 6, 2022 01:03
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Gaius Marius posted:I can't speak on the post TRI build series, but I think every find has a least one good battle in it. But if we're taking Tsob's point as having a combined element to the fighting even the basics of framing a shot become far more difficult. We want the object to be framed well but what level do you put the camera if your including a giant robot and a tank on the same shot. The use of stock footage poorly and limited dynamism in combat paired with quick cuts can already make fights seem like a few robots in bubbles shooting at each other instead of an actual battle zone that the robots are moving through. Becoming untethered to the geographic* space you're in is something that people don't tend to notice actively but can really set people off in an instinctual way. Of course that can be used intentionally like Kubrick in The Shining or how Kanye fucks up the timing of the notes on On Sight to set you off, and get you in the correct mood for Yeezus, angry. One factor is just brute force time. I agree that being able to model out the show's battles in advance might help them flow better, (and hey, they sell the models anyway) but doing that when you need to have an episode out weekly for months at a time, with a fight every time? A more difficult prospect. I know you aren't as big on the fights in Iron Blooded Orphans as I am (At this point, I've kinda made my peace with being the IBO guy), but I think that's something where its reduced combat tempo really helped. The space fights all have identifying aspects (this is the one where they use the meteor to do a crazy turn, this is the one where they pass super close to launch a boarding action, this is the one in the asteroid field, this is the one where Mikazuki surfs a Graze down to Earth) because they're rarer, and therefore have more room to distinguish themselves. Getting the time to plan things out means you get fights like Battle Before Dawn, featuring three factions, heavy use of ships, in-fight rearming, multiple tiers of mooks, and all kinds of other messy complications. Meanwhile, I felt that (despite Tomino's creativity and talent for these things) a lot of fights in Reconguista in G were kind of just... there, with no unique features, because you had to have a fight every episode, both reducing how special they felt and how much room they could have to breathe. Even light combined arms combat (like Sayla luring a Gelgoog to Amuro using the core booster so he can pin it in place until Bright lights it up with the guns on the White Base) requires more attention than just figuring out choreography for one Mobile Suit. The more moving parts you put on the battlefield (like figuring out a role for tanks and Mobile Suits and planes) the more effort each fight takes, and the more difficult it is to have good fights as often as the schedule needs. (Plus, planes and tanks don't sell as well for plamo... or at least, they don't stand out as much from the competition.)
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May 6, 2022 03:42
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chiasaur11 posted:One factor is just brute force time. I agree that being able to model out the show's battles in advance might help them flow better, (and hey, they sell the models anyway) but doing that when you need to have an episode out weekly for months at a time, with a fight every time? A more difficult prospect. One thing that I think could help with this is just having Sunrise finally give up the weekly format and cash in on a biweekly one. Separate out two studios one working on Gundam Steel blooded Miscreants, and another working on The Wizard from Saturn and give them each 13 episode seasons with two weeks between. Theoretically the plotting would be tighter, the scenario's better story boarded, and the animation better. It would also be more expensive, lead to sunrise running two competing gundam advertising and merch campaigns and lead to both probably having less actual material. But I'd take all that over going back to the 90's early 00's era where we got maybe three or four good fights a series. One thing worth also noting is that even the OVA's tend to have this problem, just to a lesser extent. The problems with the Gouf Custom vs. Shiro Squad have been gone over. But you also see problems in the Arctic Assault and Kampfer Raid in 0080, where the action looks amazingly well drawn and the enemy suits are really going for it...and the other suits are just sort of standing there. There's points where it seems like they're firing everywhere but the enemy while also standing stock still. That's not a good fight, and at least we've seen some progress on that in Unicorn and Hathaway. But the point being they should've had the time and budget to make have those fights planned better. If I had a guess it's a problem that's a combination of Merchandising saying "we need this Kampfer to look fuckin' cool" and directors just not planning things out well enough to account for space a pilot actions. Paul Thomas Anderson has always tried to make films where the characters drive the plot, he has his characters enter eachother's orbits and then keeps the scenario running until a story happens. To the point that he says if he runs out of ideas, he sets them both in a coffee shop and has them talk until something happens. That might be the key, set the scenario, add your pilots in a conceptualized 3D space, and keep doing what you think the pilots in that situation would do until you have the scenes you need, set the shots, and animate the hell out of it.
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May 6, 2022 04:30
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tsob posted:In thinking about it a bit more, I'd love for a special consisting of both Federation and Zeon propaganda movies about the events of the original show from both perspectives, with either the entire cast of the original show somehow contriving to see it at once (somewhat akin to the main cast of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" seeing a play about their adventures up to that point), or, perhaps even better, a commentary track where the entire cast watch both and just comment on them like director commentaries. I know the Nanoha films did something similar, with Nanoha and Fate commenting in character as the TV versions of themselves seeing the movie versions and acting like the movies are idealized tellings in universe. Which is a really fun idea. I'm reminded of Super Robot Wars Z3.1 where a bunch of members of the cast go to a premier screening of Celestial Being The Movie which is even more Gonzo and ridiculous in Super Robot Wars than it was in the series and walk out completely perplexed. The joke being both that it's a ridiculous exaggeration even by the standards of Super Robot Wars and that it's even funnier when the viewpoint characters were the people who literally fought exactly that battle only about a year ago. Also stuff related to going to the movie was one of the first hints at one of the major plot points in the game, but mostly it's there as a gag. Also I apparently need to track down these Nanoha movie now because the idea of in character commentary sounds fantastic. It's a little bit like how Macross stated that Exedore played himself in DYRL because in universe that was also a fictionalized retelling of what "really" happened.
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May 6, 2022 04:50
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