READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Ynglaur posted:

If Russia reneges on a prisoner exchange for the defenders of Mariupol, things could get much, much uglier. Ukraine would be well justified to just stop taking prisoners. The entire concept of prisoners of war is predicated upon both parties acting in good faith. Everyone understands when individual units mess up, or someone gets shot in that awful, dangerous time of coming out unarmed. War sucks, poo poo happens, etc. But knowingly taking prisoners into your custody and then reneging? If I were Ukraine, why take chances after that? The only way to be sure is to kill every single Russian soldier in your country. gently caress, Russia is awful.

there is a very big difference between reneging on a promise to exchange the prisoners, and reneging on a promise to treat them as prisoners of war

the reporting is the former, though with duma threats of the latter

# ? May 17, 2022 16:48

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:58

Mal-3: Oct 21, 2008

Raygereio posted:

For the most part I think many of them have trouble reconciling the idea that the US government isn't the only evil thing in the world.

American exceptionalism is a hell of a drug.

# ? May 17, 2022 16:49

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Crossposting this cuz Khodarenok chat was just happening here too

quote:

kanonvandekempen posted:
Here is a military expert spending 4.5 minutes telling the truth, almost without getting interrupted.

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1526293852704890882

Few things cuz people are wondering: if they were going to throw him out of a window there would've been a lot of previous opportunities. Idk the full backstory to why he is clearly freer than a lot of other people to be critical, although you'll notice he never really breaks from analysis of military matters to actually get into politics and that's probably why, but he's been saying poo poo like this for the better part of a decade. Probably longer, but I haven't looked that far back.

Anyways as to why does he keep getting platformed? Well there's some use to having a public perception that your military is not literally infallible and omnipotent because then you start expecting them to do unrealistic things. As you're clearly losing a war you started it becomes doubly important to temper expectations of the public and to create a desire to not keep pushing for suicidal aggression that has no chance of success.

One of the hypotheticals in this that is remarkable in its implication concerns just how much military power russia has pissed away here. I mean real, tangible military power, both in terms of manpower and in terms of precious, limited equipment like vehicles and missiles and airframes. When their military power is great enough they can do a 'special operation' with a minimum of losses and preserve almost all their power for the next one. Had Ukraine gone as hoped, they'd now have Ukraine and they'd be getting prepared to repeat the same thing, probably in either the baltics or with finland or sweden, or maybe poland if they were convinced NATO was sufficiently toothless. When they're too powerful to fight they get to keep using that military advantage over and over at little cost. Now they've gutted their military in ways that take ages to replace, if they're even replaceable under the current sanctions. So from a strategic perspective, they've pissed away their ability to act militarily for a decade or more for basically zero gain and at the cost of hugely increased isolation and sanctions.

Xodarenok's perspective essentially comes out of the above: whatever your views of the politics of the situation are, it's imperative that Russia not piss away its strategic position over basically zero meaningful gain. He also generally lays the blame at war hawks and political scientists, as opposed to Putin or the Russian military, so that's probably another reason why he sticks around. In any event, it's also worth noting that he actively writes columns for RT, so he's very much an accepted, official part of the Russian propaganda world. That said, some of the stuff he writes is clearly orthogonal to his more clearly state-sponsored output. The "Russian army is about to get buttfucked in Ukraine' piece he wrote in january that has been linked here a number of times came out days apart from his RT article about how the west has nothing to worry about Russia's exercises because they don't have nearly enough supplies and materiel stationed on the border to be successful, which while rather wryly truthful in retrospect, was clearly intended purely to downplay the likelihood of an invasion. Basically he's the more credible end of the principle where you need to mix good stuff in with the bullshit to get effective propaganda.

anyways ty for coming to my ted talk

btw this is another good pre-war open letter of warning from Russian brass

http://ooc.su/news/obrashhenie_obshherossijskogo_oficerskogo_sobranija_k_prezidentu_i_grazhdanam_rossijskoj_federacii/2022-01-31-79

# ? May 17, 2022 16:49

KitConstantine: Jan 11, 2013

Really fascinating project by the Kyiv Tourism Department of all things
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1526535020256858117?s=20&t=6hHzQlFaTynJuFfXlG9hww
https://kyivregiontours.gov.ua/en/war

It's very spooky to move around inside the destruction

CW for clearly destroyed buildings, aftereffects of war, but no bodies that I've seen

edit: Holy poo poo the Irpin one. They must have done it with a drone since the pictures are halfway up destroyed apartment buildings and you can zoom in.

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 16:57 on May 17, 2022

# ? May 17, 2022 16:54

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Family Values posted:

Reminder that the Russians believe (in their own words) that �Nazi� means �Russophobic� and �Russophobic� means �anyone that doesn�t prostrate themselves before Moscow and acknowledge Russia as their natural overlords�. Russia also has neo-nazi militant groups like the Wagner group (or whatever they call themselves now)

Pretending that Azov battalion is still what it was in 2014 while ignoring the fascist imperialism on the Russian side is the mark of a useful idiot.

Right. You would have to be completely idiotic or arguing in bad faith to believe that Russia has any actual, meaningful ideological opposition to 'fascism'. That word means whatever they want it to mean at any given time, and gets applied to anyone they don't like. As far as right-wing authoritarian talking points go, what we've heard from Russian officials and pundits during this war has consistently been far, far worse than anything on the Ukrainian side. This whole invasion is basically the equivalent of Hitler's takeover of the Sudetenland, including the rationale of 'protecting Russians'.

None of this means that you have to make excuses for Azov, and I honestly wish they would disband. That said, they represent a tiny portion of Ukraine's soldiers, and I'm pretty sure that at this point the actual neo-nazis are a small minority within the regiment itself. Svoboda also struggles to get votes during elections, and their share has only declined since 2014.

# ? May 17, 2022 16:56

KitConstantine: Jan 11, 2013

Phlegmish posted:

Right. You would have to be completely idiotic or arguing in bad faith to believe that Russia has any actual, meaningful ideological opposition to 'fascism'. That word means whatever they want it to mean at any given time, and gets applied to anyone they don't like. As far as right-wing authoritarian talking points go, what we've heard from Russian officials and pundits during this war has consistently been far, far worse than anything on the Ukrainian side. This whole invasion is basically the equivalent of Hitler's takeover of the Sudetenland, including the rationale of 'protecting Russians'.

None of this means that you have to make excuses for Azov, and I honestly wish they would disband. That said, they represent a tiny portion of Ukraine's soldiers, and I'm pretty sure that at this point the actual neo-nazis are a small minority within the regiment itself. Svoboda also struggles to get votes during elections, and their share has only declined since 2014.

Regarding this - the talking point I've seen is "well if the US Government/people were judged on our worst hot takes from TV Pundits then we would seem insane and bloodthirsty too!!"

(As though large portions of the US aren't insane and bloodthirsty but that's off topic)

The distinction is that Fox News/CNN/MSNBC aren't funded and controlled by the US Government. Russian Propaganda TV absolutely is. They're literally a line item in Russia's budget. So yes, it is fair to judge the Russian government's positions by what comes out of their mouthpieces.

It's like claiming the Biden government can't be judged by what Jen Psaki says

# ? May 17, 2022 17:02

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Ynglaur posted:

If Russia reneges on a prisoner exchange for the defenders of Mariupol, things could get much, much uglier. Ukraine would be well justified to just stop taking prisoners. The entire concept of prisoners of war is predicated upon both parties acting in good faith. Everyone understands when individual units mess up, or someone gets shot in that awful, dangerous time of coming out unarmed. War sucks, poo poo happens, etc. But knowingly taking prisoners into your custody and then reneging? If I were Ukraine, why take chances after that? The only way to be sure is to kill every single Russian soldier in your country. gently caress, Russia is awful.

I'm not sure that "If we take prisoners so will they" is literally the only reason to take prisoners. What chances would Ukraine be taking exactly if they took prisoners?

Besides, if anything I would feel that Russia's reneging is shooting itself in the foot - if Russia made it clear that surrender is a one-way ticket to prison/torture-town, all they'll have managed to do is to convince Ukrainians that there's really nothing to lose in fighting to the death, making the Russian invasion even LESS likely to succeed. Given that poor morale amongst Russian troops is an ongoing problem I don't see that Ukraine gains much from convincing Russian troops that they need to fight to the death too.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:02

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

evilweasel posted:

there is a very big difference between reneging on a promise to exchange the prisoners, and reneging on a promise to treat them as prisoners of war

the reporting is the former, though with duma threats of the latter

A good and more level-headed take than my post. I guess I'm just shocked that a country can be so villainously evil. I suppose I shouldn't be; my country elected Trump, for goodness' sakes.

Edit: Perhaps a better, less emotion-ridden take would be, "Why would any Ukrainian soldier ever surrender after such a renege? And why would they trust any peace not guaranteed by doing as much as possible to cripple Russia's military, inside of Ukraine or otherwise?

Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 17:08 on May 17, 2022

# ? May 17, 2022 17:04

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

Tomn posted:

I'm not sure that "If we take prisoners so will they" is literally the only reason to take prisoners. What chances would Ukraine be taking exactly if they took prisoners?

Besides, if anything I would feel that Russia's reneging is shooting itself in the foot - if Russia made it clear that surrender is a one-way ticket to prison/torture-town, all they'll have managed to do is to convince Ukrainians that there's really nothing to lose in fighting to the death, making the Russian invasion even LESS likely to succeed. Given that poor morale amongst Russian troops is an ongoing problem I don't see that Ukraine gains much from convincing Russian troops that they need to fight to the death too.

Circling back to the Art of War, Sun Tzu patiently explained you want your opponent to have the option to retreat or surrender because it's much easier to defeat them when they are not fighting to the death.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:04

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

Nessus posted:

But what if we want people to be drawn to radical ideologies?

Well most liberal democracies have huge far right populist movements so there's no lack of that! But they are nice suit wearing types instead of the scary skinhead with tattoos, against which strong democratic states are effective

# ? May 17, 2022 17:05

Ulf: Jul 15, 2001; FOUR COLORS
ONE LOVE; Nap Ghost

Telsa Cola posted:

A switchblade is a grenade. An Excalibur shell is a 155mm artillery round.

In the GiP war thread someone explained that a 155mm artillery round has a lethal radius of 50 meters. Meaning if a single 155mm round landed at the 50 yard line of a football field, anyone on the field and much of the crowd in the stands would be killed.

I had no idea. It adds a lot to the videos I see in this thread of artillery strikes.

Doctor Malaver posted:

I for one hope and expect that if nukes start flying around, the involved parties will reconsider their approach.

There is a danger that the world will enter what historians call The Rad Zone.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:31

Athas: Aug 6, 2007; fuck that joker

Randarkman posted:

Also, it's refereshing to have him dunk on the conception that conscript armies can't be well-trained and motivated and that only "professional soldiers" can be effective. In fact that whole concept seems to have been almost fetishized in Russia, when in reality you almost certainly can't fight a war like this without conscription.

How did this belief about conscript armies being useless come about? Didn't the Soviet Union always use a lot of conscription even in peacetime, and in particular won WW2 by conscripting an enormous amount of their population (just like everybody else)? It seems like Russian military culture should have a good deal of historical respect for the value of large, well-trained conscript armies.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:37

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Athas posted:

How did this belief about conscript armies being useless come about? Didn't the Soviet Union always use a lot of conscription even in peacetime, and in particular won WW2 by conscripting an enormous amount of their population (just like everybody else)? It seems like Russian military culture should have a good deal of historical respect for the value of large, well-trained conscript armies.

In the US, at least, I think the perception came as part of a response to the Vietnam War. The perception was that a conscript (i.e. draft) army was less effective than an all-volunteer force.

Btw, thanks to all of the goons who responded in a measured, patient way to my lovely post earlier. It was kind of you all.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:42

Alctel: Jan 16, 2004; I love snails

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZIspwem2s

It's already been posted here but if you haven't watched it, you should.

I mean the 'arc' is almost too perfect which makes me wonder who edited/assembled it but it's still really good.

Film nerds are the same the world over. 'why are you filmimg this? Just because'

# ? May 17, 2022 17:47

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

KitConstantine posted:

Regarding this - the talking point I've seen is "well if the US Government/people were judged on our worst hot takes from TV Pundits then we would seem insane and bloodthirsty too!!"

(As though large portions of the US aren't insane and bloodthirsty but that's off topic)

The distinction is that Fox News/CNN/MSNBC aren't funded and controlled by the US Government. Russian Propaganda TV absolutely is. They're literally a line item in Russia's budget. So yes, it is fair to judge the Russian government's positions by what comes out of their mouthpieces.

It's like claiming the Biden government can't be judged by what Jen Psaki says

It's been a while since I've watched CNN, and we don't get MSNBC over here, but I doubt they constantly invite 'experts' and opinion makers who basically call for genocide, threaten neighboring countries, etc. From Fox I could actually believe it (and it's not a coincidence that they were praised by Lavrov), but as you say, they're anything but a government mouthpiece.

What gets me is that the same people who constantly bring up the Azov regiment completely gloss over the right-wing, authoritarian nationalism that fully pervades mainstream Russian discourse. It's perhaps too generous to call them useful idiots, because the leftists who defended the Soviet Union during the Cold War were at least defending an actual communist state, misguided as they were. This is just people saying 'NATO bad' and going from there to justify an unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country by a right-wing dictatorship. I guess it's up to us not to show the same hypocrisy, and to keep calling out the Ukrainian far right when relevant, even if their ideas are less mainstream than similar ones are in Russia.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:53

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Ynglaur posted:

In the US, at least, I think the perception came as part of a response to the Vietnam War. The perception was that a conscript (i.e. draft) army was less effective than an all-volunteer force.

Btw, thanks to all of the goons who responded in a measured, patient way to my lovely post earlier. It was kind of you all.

As that guy on Russian TV pointed out, it's also highly dependent on those conscripts believing in what they're fighting for.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:56

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

Kikas posted:

No in fact I will hand it to the Azov's for doing what they did. Like I don't believe that half of people who get called Nazis would actually go and fight for their country, let alone hold out to the last man. Most of the guys who talk poo poo about other nations would most likely dip once the bombs start dropping.
So at least good on them on keeping the "nation" part of "nationalist" and actually fighting for their country. I also think that this is a matter of perspective difference between US and Europe but this is a whole other

And with regard of their portrayal on the surrender/loss/capture - propaganda works both ways, we've had this discussion before. The western world is generally on Ukraine's side, so we get the "even in defeat, they win" angle.
Everyone loves a good underdog story.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

What was this probe for? A tongue in cheek congrats for tying up Russian forces for 2 months?

Russian propaganda really does work wonders on our terminally online brains, doesn't it. The fact that there is still tons of people buying into it at this point amazes me.

# ? May 17, 2022 17:57

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

ummel posted:

What was this probe for? A tongue in cheek congrats for tying up Russian forces for 2 months?

Russian propaganda really does work wonders on our terminally online brains, doesn't it. The fact that there is still tons of people buying into it at this point amazes me.

He got probated for 'handing it to Azov'. I don't know if it was worth a day-long probation, but I can at least see the logic. You probably shouldn't be talking about them in glowing terms.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:03

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

Ynglaur posted:

In the US, at least, I think the perception came as part of a response to the Vietnam War. The perception was that a conscript (i.e. draft) army was less effective than an all-volunteer force.

Btw, thanks to all of the goons who responded in a measured, patient way to my lovely post earlier. It was kind of you all.

Russian conscripts in WWII were also fighting German conscripts.

The only non-conscript armies in WWII were the Free French and the Chinese Communists.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:03

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Phlegmish posted:

What gets me is that the same people who constantly bring up the Azov regiment completely gloss over the right-wing, authoritarian nationalism that fully pervades mainstream Russian discourse. It's perhaps too generous to call them useful idiots, because the leftists who defended the Soviet Union during the Cold War were at least defending an actual communist state, misguided as they were.

An analogy would be World War I where there were splits on the left over whether to support one's own respective governments in the war. Imagine Russia is like the German Empire here and you're a leftist in America or Britain -- do you vote for war credits? Some did. Some refused. That's basically what this is about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerwald_Conference

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 18:22 on May 17, 2022

# ? May 17, 2022 18:16

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

Phlegmish posted:

He got probated for 'handing it to Azov'. I don't know if it was worth a day-long probation, but I can at least see the logic. You probably shouldn't be talking about them in glowing terms.

If you told people back in March that they would hold out until the middle of May, they would have called you crazy. Politics aside - they massively exceeded expectations and that's just a statement of fact. There needs to be a way to recognize reality here. If in some other hypothetical war the enemy forces performed similarly that should also be recognized.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:23

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

The X-man cometh posted:

Russian conscripts in WWII were also fighting German conscripts.

The only non-conscript armies in WWII were the Free French and the Chinese Communists.

I agree. I was trying to answer why some people believe conscripts armies are less effective. Personally, I think history shows that conscript armies can be both very professional and very effective.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:23

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Mozi posted:

If you told people back in March that they would hold out until the middle of May, they would have called you crazy. Politics aside - they massively exceeded expectations and that's just a statement of fact. There needs to be a way to recognize reality here.

Perhaps talk more in terms of the 'city defenses'?

# ? May 17, 2022 18:24

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Phlegmish posted:

He got probated for 'handing it to Azov'. I don't know if it was worth a day-long probation, but I can at least see the logic. You probably shouldn't be talking about them in glowing terms.

Yeah, I don't think you "gotta hand it" to neo-Nazis, well, ever, but I think it's worth having a discussion about how Nazism is viewed in Ukraine and how that view is probably shaped by vastly different considerations than in the west.

Just as Russia seem to view "Nazi" as meaning anyone who does not bow to the Kremlin, I'm guessing there's a significant portion of Ukraine who thinks of Nazis not as the anti-Semitic, murderous war criminals we see them as (correctly) in the west, but rather "those guys who also wanted to shoot Russians!" I'm not saying that makes it acceptable, but I am saying we should probably take that into account when we consider how to integrate these Nazi sympathizers back into some sort of society. They're probably not too far gone, all things considered.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:24

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

Phlegmish posted:

He got probated for 'handing it to Azov'. I don't know if it was worth a day-long probation, but I can at least see the logic. You probably shouldn't be talking about them in glowing terms.

Idk, they did a bang up job delaying Russia's advance in the southern pincer maneuver. I trust the Ukrainian press when they talk about the (ongoing prior to war) reforms made in the unit.

This forum as a whole eats up the Azov Nazi angle to the point of defacto shadow banning qualified charities in the charity thread because of a qanon level :tinfoil:

. But I'll just leave this be because I'll probably eat a probe too.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

ummel fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 17, 2022

# ? May 17, 2022 18:27

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

Mozi posted:

If you told people back in March that they would hold out until the middle of May, they would have called you crazy. Politics aside - they massively exceeded expectations and that's just a statement of fact. There needs to be a way to recognize reality here.

Did isis massively exceed expectations in mosul and raqqa too? Urban warfare loving sucks for the attacking forces even with overwhelming firepower, and is slow going if the defenders have ammo and dont give up

# ? May 17, 2022 18:28

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

PT6A posted:

Yeah, I don't think you "gotta hand it" to neo-Nazis, well, ever, but I think it's worth having a discussion about how Nazism is viewed in Ukraine and how that view is probably shaped by vastly different considerations than in the west.

Just as Russia seem to view "Nazi" as meaning anyone who does not bow to the Kremlin, I'm guessing there's a significant portion of Ukraine who thinks of Nazis not as the anti-Semitic, murderous war criminals we see them as (correctly) in the west, but rather "those guys who also wanted to shoot Russians!" I'm not saying that makes it acceptable, but I am saying we should probably take that into account when we consider how to integrate these Nazi sympathizers back into some sort of society. They're probably not too far gone, all things considered.

To essentialize anyone is meaningless but I'm skeptical people in that part of the world lack historical memory of World War II. This isn't some crazy idea, this is Obama administration's former Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism in 2018:

https://twitter.com/jdforward/status/1026520904019443712

quote:

As a former Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism (SEAS) for the State Department, I remain concerned that for the past 18 months, this post has been vacant. The absence of a Special Envoy makes the media�s role of spotlighting outbreaks of hatred and anti-Semitism even more vital. This is why I was deeply alarmed to see the New York Times downplay and whitewash a neo-Nazi gang in a recent article about Ukraine.

On April 20, an organization called C14 � which has been described as having members who openly express neo-Nazi views by Radio Free Europe, among other outlets � carried out a terrifying anti-Roma pogrom in Kiev. Over the next two months, four other pogroms, including one in which a man was brutally killed and four others injured, raged across Ukraine. The outbreak of ethnic-fueled hatred was condemned by the The United Nations in Ukraine, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and a joint letter by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Front Line Defenders and Freedom House. All these expressed extreme concern with both the impunity of far-right gangs and the government�s lax response.

[...]

During my tenure as Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism, I saw firsthand the neo-Nazi fervor growing in Ukraine. During one visit to Kiev, I was told that Ukraine had just finished an investigation of a complaint that Jews were kidnapping Ukrainian children to sell their organs. I call this a modern-day blood libel.

The meeting ended with the results of the investigation: 30,000 Ukrainian children were not missing. I said the meeting was over and that the investigation was absurd and ridiculous. I then raised this with the foreign minister who informed me that it was not ridiculous, that Jews have done this in the past and could do it again. Again, I walked out of that meeting.

Over the past three years, the trajectory of far-right development in Ukraine has gotten worse. The government has declared Nazi collaborators guilty of slaughtering Jews to be freedom fighters; parades to these groups are a common sight in Ukraine. Often, they are accompanied by rank anti-Semitism: In January 2017, chants of �Jews out� were heard at a torchlight parade in Kiev. According to RFE, Nazi salutes were seen when 20,000 marched last October. This April, the Anti-Defamation League�s Director of European Affairs tweeted a video of Nazi salutes as hundreds of people marched in the memory of a Waffen SS unit.

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the World Jewish Congress and Israel all commented on the surge of anti-Semitism in Ukraine over the past year. And while the country�s prime minister is Jewish, Deputy Interior Minister Vadym Troyan has a long history of involvement with neo-Nazi gangs. In 2014, Jewish groups, including Ukrainian Jewish leaders, were appalled at the idea of Troyan becoming chief of police in Kiev; today, he is one of the most powerful men in the country. And according to the Washington Post, another extremely powerful figure, Parliament Speaker Andriy Parubiy, spent over a decade running the overtly neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine. Parubiy is no longer formally affiliated with neo-Nazi organizations, but his dark past is deeply troubling, especially in a nation where gangs such as C14 act with impunity (according to Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the United Nations).

# ? May 17, 2022 18:32

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

PT6A posted:

As that guy on Russian TV pointed out, it's also highly dependent on those conscripts believing in what they're fighting for.

Well also the conscripts being well-trained and part of an effective military structure, there is nothing really precluding conscripts from being well-trained enough to be effective soldiers. There are some more technical tasks where conscription is highly inefficient because it means you retain personell for a much shorter duration and have to constantly be training a new batch of recruits.

The X-man cometh posted:

Russian conscripts in WWII were also fighting German conscripts.

The only non-conscript armies in WWII were the Free French and the Chinese Communists.

I'm almost certain the Chinese Communists regularly drafted peasants and others in their territories into their armed forces. That's not really conscription as an institution though, but it is still mandated/enforced service. Canada also did not implement effective conscription because of political issues, this casued huge issues in maintaining their ~200,000 strong army in Europe after it took part in heavy fighting on the western front.

Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 17, 2022

# ? May 17, 2022 18:33

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

ummel posted:

Idk, they did a bang up job delaying Russia's advance in the southern pincer maneuver. I trust the Ukrainian press when they talk about the (ongoing prior to war) reforms made in the unit.

This forum as a whole eats up the Azov Nazi angle to the point of defacto shadow banning qualified charities in the charity thread because of a qanon level . But I'll just leave this be because I'll probably eat a probe too.

This subject got shadow banned because people couldn't accept an easy black and white narrative. This invasion is awful and the precept of "denazification" is nonsense, but that doesn't mean the Azov Battalion aren't Neo-Nazis.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:34

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Ukraine was doing a decent job of freezing out Azov battalion (doubly so because american aid stipulations said that nothing could go to Azov) until russia came and turned them into loving national heroes of self-sacrifice

# ? May 17, 2022 18:35

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Should also add that in former Soviet Bloc countries, post-communism requires a lot of soul searching as many of these societies have to rediscover their cultural roots and heritage that were suppressed during communist times. There's over a century of cultural identity that was suppressed or channeled through a Stalinist/Marxist/Leninist lens.
I'm not saying this is correct, but it's understandable that as people reach for some sort of national identity independent of communist ideas they'd eventually come to what existed prior to communism i.e. monarchist symbols, or neo-paganist stuff that got co-opted by Nazis. Just look at Russia today, it's often see-sawing between Russian Imperial symbols and Communist symbols in the most random and weird ways. Of course whenever one ideology loses the reactionary one usually tries to come back really hard to occupy the vacuum left behind.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:37

Henrik Zetterberg: Dec 7, 2007

KitConstantine posted:

Really fascinating project by the Kyiv Tourism Department of all things
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1526535020256858117?s=20&t=6hHzQlFaTynJuFfXlG9hww
https://kyivregiontours.gov.ua/en/war

It's very spooky to move around inside the destruction

CW for clearly destroyed buildings, aftereffects of war, but no bodies that I've seen

edit: Holy poo poo the Irpin one. They must have done it with a drone since the pictures are halfway up destroyed apartment buildings and you can zoom in.

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

# ? May 17, 2022 18:38

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

To essentialize anyone is meaningless but I'm skeptical people in that part of the world lack historical memory of World War II. This isn't some crazy idea, this is Obama administration's former Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism in 2018:

I don't think they lack memory of WW2, I think they have a very different view of what happened. "We're on the frontlines of a war because someone we don't give a gently caress about [Hitler] hates Stalin and they're probably both assholes but I hate Stalin more!"

I don't think that's a correct opinion to have, now or at the time, but I certainly understand where it comes from, given what the Ukrainian SSR went through preceding the war, and I understand why it's persisted amongst some elements of the Ukrainian community both inside Ukraine and abroad. Nazism is primarily viewed in the west through the lens of the Holocaust and the rabid anti-Semitism (and anti-Ziganism, etc.), and I think that's definitely the defining and most awful characteristic of Nazis, but I can certainly understand why Eastern Europe might have significantly different views on that subject.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:48

Bremen: Jul 20, 2006; Our God..... is an awesome God

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

The world has a lot of experience with this after much of Europe got reduced to rubble about 80 years ago. The main question to me is if there will actually be the will to make it happen, or if the west will completely forget about Ukraine once helping them no longer consists of providing weapons to kill Russians (and enriching arms manufacturers). I'm really hoping I'm just being cynical though and we provide Ukraine with the help that I honestly feel we owe them.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:49

catfry: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

estimates are somewhere between � and 1 trillion usd so far.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:50

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

If there's any moral justice, then the US / EU would waive Ukraine's debts and do a new Marshall Plan for Ukraine to rebuild the country.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:50

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

Weirdly, reconstitution of European states from war devastation is not something we can say we're historically bad at

# ? May 17, 2022 18:51

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Atreiden posted:

https://twitter.com/malik_in_dc/status/1526539672113262594
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-russian-military-said-to-fire-s-300-missiles-at-israeli-jets-over-syria/

"We haven't noticed being fired at, but if the Russians say they've been shooting missiles at us, we'll take their word for it" - stellar endorsement of Russia's advanced weapons systems

# ? May 17, 2022 18:57

ugh whatever jeez: Mar 19, 2009; Buglord

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

Assuming Ukraine successfully repels Russia eventually, it's unreal to imagine just how many years and zillions of dollars are going to be spent getting Ukraine back to just the previous state. Wowzers. Like, how do you clean and start rebuilding (and get the raw materials!) all those destroyed cities up even within a decade?

Also, Russia is not going away. It will still be there and they will really double down on meddling in politics, trying to get their loyalists in positions of power, stirring up poo poo and riling up population.

Even in the best case Ukraine will not get peaceful time to rebuild.

# ? May 17, 2022 18:59

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:58

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

PT6A posted:

I don't think they lack memory of WW2, I think they have a very different view of what happened. "We're on the frontlines of a war because someone we don't give a gently caress about [Hitler] hates Stalin and they're probably both assholes but I hate Stalin more!"

I don't think that's a correct opinion to have, now or at the time, but I certainly understand where it comes from, given what the Ukrainian SSR went through preceding the war, and I understand why it's persisted amongst some elements of the Ukrainian community both inside Ukraine and abroad. Nazism is primarily viewed in the west through the lens of the Holocaust and the rabid anti-Semitism (and anti-Ziganism, etc.), and I think that's definitely the defining and most awful characteristic of Nazis, but I can certainly understand why Eastern Europe might have significantly different views on that subject.

There's also a problem that Nazi and Fascist have become synonyms in popular discourse, when in reality while Franco, Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito all fit in the same toybox, they're all different toys.

# ? May 17, 2022 19:00

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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