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Xenomrph posted:I’m surprised we haven’t gotten anything in the vein of the old Tales From… anthologies, like Tales From Canto Bight or Tales From Takodana. The "From A Certain Point of View" books are quite similar to the old "Tales From" books, particularly the first one and "Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina".
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May 26, 2022 23:05
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fartknocker posted:The "From A Certain Point of View" books are quite similar to the old "Tales From" books, particularly the first one and "Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina". Did they re-canonize anything from the old Tales books or did they change poo poo for the sake of changing poo poo? I rewatched TLJ last night for the first time since it came out, knowing what the movie is trying to do made me soften on the movie a lot but it’s still got real problems. I think the biggest one is that Holdo is dumb as gently caress by not telling anyone what her surprisingly simple and reasonable escape plan was, and it gets a shitload of people killed because the chronically reckless loose-cannon ace pilot (who had already disobeyed orders at the beginning of the movie) predictably disobeys orders and does something reckless that jeopardizes Holdo’s plan. Like… all she had to do was tell him the plan. There was no “OPSEC” there, there wasn’t a traitor onboard or the First Order hacking their comms, when one of her key personnel is known for disobeying orders then maybe she shouldn’t be hiding information from him - especially when she ends up telling him the plan anyway (after a shitload of people have been senselessly killed, naturally) and he immediately says “oh yeah, that makes sense”. If she’d told him what was up from the start, Poe wouldn’t have gone rogue, sent Rose and Finn on a borderline suicide mission that almost gets them captured or killed repeatedly and nearly fails like 4 times (and finally does fail at the end, nearly getting them killed and directly resulting in the First Order learning about the fleeing transports and blowing up like 80% of them), and staged a loving mutiny. It’s not enough to ruin the movie, and it does have worthwhile stuff and I am glad I rewatched it, but when the entire B-plot and much of the tension, stakes, and tragedy hinges on one character willfully being a dumbass, it chafes a little.
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May 26, 2022 23:39
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Xenomrph posted:Did they re-canonize anything from the old Tales books or did they change poo poo for the sake of changing poo poo? This is so utterly backwards.
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May 26, 2022 23:55
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What Holdo should have done was thrown Poe in the brig immediately when she took command, and told him nothing, and saved the Resistance. Shooting him would've worked too. She has no obligation, as the commander of a warship in combat, to tell anyone anything, especially when the first thing that man does when he gets the information is to broadcast it in the clear to the enemy. The gender dynamics are of course even worse. Women need to understand and manage the emotions of those hotshot men. It's not the responsibility of the men to trust the women or to manage their own rebellious feelings. no. That silly woman in a dress should've just trusted the space action man with all her secrets. Then he would've known not to do the bad thing.
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May 27, 2022 00:02
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thrawn527 posted:FYI, there's a panel at Celebration today on Lucasfilm publishing. They actually streamed the THR panel, announced a bunch of books for Phase 2 and more: 
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May 27, 2022 00:03
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General Battuta posted:What Holdo should have done was thrown Poe in the brig immediately when she took command, and told him nothing, and saved the Resistance. "Shut up and do as you're told, your superiors know more than you do" is a real odd message from a movie ostensibly about rebellion, resistance, and students surpassing their teachers though.
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May 27, 2022 00:09
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General Battuta posted:What Holdo should have done was thrown Poe in the brig immediately when she took command, and told him nothing, and saved the Resistance. None of this has anything to do with them being men or women, their genders could have been reversed and my criticism would be the same. It’s a criticism of the film’s writing, the narrative and character portrayals. Narratively, the incredibly easy out was to have her express that she thought there was a spy or something, and it’s doubly effective if the story plays out and she ends up being right. If she thought he was a security risk (and she outright says to his face that she “knows his type”) then yes she absolutely should have locked him up before he did something stupid. Instead she gives him free reign of the ship and he does something predictable. It’s still on her. Trying to use it as a “teachable moment” for Poe is incredibly ill-timed (especially since he ends up learning nothing and doesn’t apologize). An enormous part of leadership is recognizing your subordinates character traits and flaws, and mitigating or accounting for them. If that meant locking Poe up so he doesn’t repeat past behavior, then so be it. This has nothing to do with Holdo being a woman. ninjahedgehog posted:"Shut up and do as you're told, your superiors know more than you do" is a real odd message from a movie ostensibly about rebellion, resistance, and students surpassing their teachers though. Also this. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 00:14 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 00:12
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Xenomrph posted:None of this has anything to do with them being men or women, their genders could have been reversed and my criticism would be the same. Yes it does. Anything involving gendered characters has gendered dynamics. quote:If she thought he was a security risk (and she outright says to his face that she “knows his type”) then yes she absolutely should have locked him up before he did something stupid. Instead she gives him free reign of the ship and he does something predictable. It’s still on her. It is not the responsibility of a senior officer to anticipate that a junior officer in a military will disobey orders, break their oath, and transmit information in the clear to the enemy. It is the junior officer's responsibility to not do those things. It is not the responsibility of a woman in a position of power to manage the emotions of men reporting to her who resent her orders and choose to disobey them. It is their responsibility to not do so. Your reactions are based on the implicit belief that Poe's character traits and choices are fixed and unavoidable, whereas Admiral Holdo could have simply acted differently and more wisely. Instead, Poe should have acted differently and more wisely. That he did not is his fault, not the fault of the movie or Admiral Holdo. ninjahedgehog posted:"Shut up and do as you're told, your superiors know more than you do" is a real odd message from a movie ostensibly about rebellion, resistance, and students surpassing their teachers though. It is precisely the message of Poe's arc - learning to think of more than his own desire to jump in a fighter and go blow something up.
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May 27, 2022 00:16
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Xenomrph posted:Did they re-canonize anything from the old Tales books or did they change poo poo for the sake of changing poo poo? Most of the stories are more or less compatible, though the Tonnika sisters in the new book are the actual Tonnika sisters rather than impersonators. The book also uses the whole "Certain point of view" thing as a catch-all explanation for any discrepancies being the result of unreliable narrators, so if anyone's super invested in the Mistryl Shadow Guards or Tarkin's heterosexuality, they can ignore it in favor of other stuff.
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May 27, 2022 00:18
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Xenomrph posted:I’m surprised we haven’t gotten anything in the vein of the old Tales From… anthologies, like Tales From Canto Bight or Tales From Takodana. General Battuta posted:What Holdo should have done was thrown Poe in the brig immediately when she took command, and told him nothing, and saved the Resistance.
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May 27, 2022 00:24
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General Battuta posted:Yes it does. Anything involving gendered characters has gendered dynamics. Again, this has nothing to do with Holdo being a woman, I am criticizing her actions as a character in a space movie. General Battuta posted:It is not the responsibility of a senior officer to anticipate that a junior officer in a military will disobey orders, break their oath, and transmit information in the clear to the enemy. It is the junior officer's responsibility to not do those things. General Battuta posted:It is not the responsibility of a woman in a position of power to manage the emotions of men reporting to her who resent her orders and choose to disobey them. It is their responsibility to not do so. General Battuta posted:Your reactions are based on the implicit belief that Poe's character traits and choices are fixed and unavoidable, whereas Admiral Holdo could have simply acted differently and more wisely. Instead, Poe should have acted differently and more wisely. That he did not is his fault, not the fault of the movie or Admiral Holdo. When you’ve got a rowdy dog that runs around breaking poo poo and biting people, and you know it does this without fail, and you don’t lock the dog up when it’s really important that the dog not run around and break poo poo, it’s not the dog’s fault when poo poo gets broken and people get bit. General Battuta posted:It is precisely the message of Poe's arc - learning to think of more than his own desire to jump in a fighter and go blow something up.
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May 27, 2022 00:31
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Xenomrph posted:You’re the one bringing up gender dynamics, not me, friend. Whether or not you know you're bringing up gender dynamics doesn't really matter. Any conversation about gendered beings in a gendered society is about gender. quote:Nah, it is extremely the movie’s fault when there are really easy and obvious narrative methods to make Holdo not look like an ignorant dumbass. As the movie presents things and based on Poe’s characterization, she’s an idiot and it gets people killed. It is not Holdo's responsibility to make Poe not be an idiot. It is Poe's responsibility. Poe is not a dog. Poe is an adult human being. Human beings are responsible for their own behavior. If you cannot understand this by watching the movie, you may be a Star Wars fan.
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May 27, 2022 00:46
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Cross-Section posted:They actually streamed the THR panel, announced a bunch of books for Phase 2 and more: I do enjoy the High Republic but it kinda feels unfocused and messy. The first phase built up starlight beacon as this huge triumph, then immediately destroy the thing. They spend this trilogy building up these characters and relationships and drama, then do a large timejump backwards for the next phase.
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May 27, 2022 00:46
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If only that idiot Luke had stopped Obi-wan from going off on his own to disable the tractor beam. Then Obi-wan would've been around to train him in the Force and protect the Rebellion. What a horrible adopted son he is. If only that idiot Leia had stopped Han from going off on his own to look for Luke in lethal cold. Then Luke wouldn't have abandoned his friends to go to Dagobah and they never would've been drawn into Vader's trap on Cloud City. What a dumb leader she is. If only that idiot Mon Mothma had stopped Luke from going on the mission to Endor. Then the attack on the Death Star would've gone off without a hitch and the Emperor would've died without ever putting Luke at a risk or alerting Vader to the rebel infiltrators on the Tydirium. What a terrible senator she is. e: I guess the ewoks would've eaten them without Luke lol
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May 27, 2022 00:49
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General Battuta posted:Whether or not you know you're bringing up gender dynamics doesn't really matter. Any conversation about gendered beings in a gendered society is about gender. Yeah but no one is bringing up gender but you. It is possible to have a conversation about characters without it immediately defaulting to gender or misogyny or whatever the gently caress. Me criticizing Holdo doesn’t somehow mean I hate women, or think the problem with the movie is how men and women interact. Obi-wan going off and doing his thing isn’t a problem because not only does it work, it was part of the mission. Luke going to Endor isn’t a problem because he outright recognizes that he shouldn’t be there and tries to back out. We’re talking basic narrative structure and how the story is portrayed to the audience. There were really easy ways to make Holdo sympathetic within the fictional narrative of the space opera, and the movie didn’t do them. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 00:56 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 00:54
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Holdo is a woman. Poe is a man. This is what brings up gender. The movie made Holdo sympathetic and correct. She is right in absolutely every decision she makes, including the decision not to give information to the man who, when he gets the information, immediately broadcasts it to the enemy. You failed to understand this. That is not the movie or Holdo's fault. It may be the fault of something gender-related, though...
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May 27, 2022 00:59
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Xenomrph posted:We’re talking basic narrative structure and how the story is portrayed to the audience.
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May 27, 2022 00:59
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Xenomrph posted:Did they re-canonize anything from the old Tales books or did they change poo poo for the sake of changing poo poo? This is an insane post. “He was a crazy, loose cannon pilot who does what he wants and never listens to orders. She was an idiot for not trusting him and bringing into the command structure”, or whatever, isn’t the killer argument you think it is. Also, we may know there’s no traitor onboard or anyone hacking their comms, but does she? Absolutely not. Of course she’d keep things close to the vest when the enemy is tracking them through unknown methods. Rose and Finn figure it out, and they tell Poe, who goes off and does his own thing. “when one of her key personnel is known for disobeying orders then maybe she shouldn’t be hiding information from him” Like, that’s a crazy statement to make outside of the context of the conclusion you’ve already drawn. Disobeying orders doesn’t get you brought into the inner circle. It gets you demoted (which happened) or thrown in the brig.
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May 27, 2022 00:59
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VaultAggie posted:I do enjoy the High Republic but it kinda feels unfocused and messy. To be fair Phase 2 does seem primarily focused on setting up the Nameless/Levelers who came into focus in a big way at the end of Phase 1. It's not completely disconnected.
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May 27, 2022 01:12
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Even if it were well founded here, "characters should never make mistakes or unwise choices on the basis of their own knowledge or emotions" is also not a great critique of art.
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May 27, 2022 01:12
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General Battuta posted:
General Battuta posted:The movie made Holdo sympathetic and correct. quote:immediately broadcasts it to the enemy. quote:It may be the fault of something gender-related, though... Arquinsiel posted:Remember how that audience exists in the society we do? Asking the audience to pretend they don't see any hint of the gender dynamics of our society in that interaction is a fool's errand. thrawn527 posted:Also, we may know there’s no traitor onboard or anyone hacking their comms, but does she? Absolutely not. Of course she’d keep things close to the vest when the enemy is tracking them through unknown methods. Rose and Finn figure it out, and they tell Poe, who goes off and does his own thing. The movie doesn’t do this. She didn’t even have to express it to Poe; if she’d just expressed it to literally anyone it would have narratively mitigated the problem. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 01:16 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 01:13
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The movie fully justifies Holdo's expressed concerns about Poe because the moment Poe learns the information she's concealing he broadcasts it to the enemy. How did you miss this?
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May 27, 2022 01:15
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That's, uh, basic storytelling and characterization.
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May 27, 2022 01:16
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General Battuta posted:The movie fully justifies Holdo's expressed concerns about Poe because the moment Poe learns the information she's concealing he broadcasts it to the enemy. And again, Poe learns nothing from the experience, his behavior doesn’t change, he doesn’t show contrition or sorrow or realization that his actions got people killed. If any of those things had happened, I’d be less critical of the movie’s storytelling. Still Holdo’s fault tho
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May 27, 2022 01:18
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Holdo’s plan fundamentally relies on there being no spies, period, not even ones who don’t know her specific intentions. There was really no point to her worrying about them because if they existed the Resistance was already doomed. e: I guess if our working theory of media analysis is that every interaction between a man and a woman is inherently a commentary on gender politics, then you could take this to mean that the genteel-coded white woman cares more about making a point about gender dynamics than she does about the actual success of her faction in its war against fascists, which… okay, fair Zoran fucked around with this message at 01:22 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 01:18
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Xenomrph posted:Somehow I did, when does it happen? Do you remember the part where all the cloaked transports start getting blown up? We can walk you back from there, if you caught that part.
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May 27, 2022 01:19
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General Battuta posted:Do you remember the part where all the cloaked transports start getting blown up?
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May 27, 2022 01:22
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You did. Do you remember who was listening when Poe told Finn that Holdo was fueling the transports?
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May 27, 2022 01:22
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thanks folks i had forgotten that admiral holdo exists at all. now please let me put her, and poe, and everyone else back in the memory hole with waru, where they belong
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May 27, 2022 01:26
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General Battuta posted:You did. Do you remember who was listening when Poe told Finn that Holdo was fueling the transports? That mitigates a lot of my problems with Holdo, although I think it might have narratively strengthened her character if she had actually expressed to anyone (Poe himself, some other character as an aside, whoever) that she thought he was a security risk and then, like you said, it ends up bearing fruit. Just saying “I don’t have to tell you” doesn’t make her sympathetic, while her saying “i SHOULDNT tell you” is more effective. Likewise, it would have strengthened Poe’s character if he was shown displaying any remorse or recognition of what his actions did. There’s no emotional or narrative payoff for Poe’s “teachable moment”. I still think Holdo withholding information is narratively dumb, even if it’s her right to do so as a commanding officer. Mom Mothma openly spells out the Endor plan to everyone in the room, even the random droids and loitering deckhands. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 01:32 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 01:30
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I agree that Poe probably should've faced harsher consequences at the end of the movie, given that he is directly responsible for the effective destruction of the Resistance. Like he probably should've been vaporized.
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May 27, 2022 01:31
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Xenomrph posted:Mom Mothma openly spells out the Endor plan to everyone in the room, even the random droids and loitering deckhands. and then the battlestation was fully operational when luke's friends arrived
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May 27, 2022 01:31
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General Battuta posted:You did. Do you remember who was listening when Poe told Finn that Holdo was fueling the transports? I’m just gonna sit here and enjoy watching this unfold. 
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May 27, 2022 01:31
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Jazerus posted:and then the battlestation was fully operational when luke's friends arrived
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May 27, 2022 01:33
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In general I think TLJ had a problem with walking back all its best stuff in the last act. The Jedi are actually okay and will keep going, Poe doesn't face any serious consequences for loving everyone, Finn doesn't really commit to radical solidarity with exploited children across the galaxy (???). Rose at least gets to stop Finn from killing himself the way her sister did.
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May 27, 2022 01:36
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Xenomrph posted:I honest to god seriously did not catch that, thank you for correcting me. But she did say he’s a security risk. So did the movie. Like, what? The movie told you he was a security risk when he disobeyed a direct order, and he was demoted as a result. Holdo then directly said that this was why she didn’t trust him. She doesn’t just say “I don’t have to tell you.” She brings up the demotion, and Leia. In a military organization, if you disobey orders, that means you can’t be trusted. That part is really pretty straight forward. It bears fruit when he leaks military secrets that gets a bunch of people killed. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 01:42 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 01:36
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thrawn527 posted:But she did say he’s a security risk. So did the movie. Like, what? You can make the case that the movie was trying to subvert the well-worn trope of “incompetent leader gets undercut by smarter protagonists, protagonists save the day when their plucky plan works out”, but there are more effective ways to do it in my opinion.
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May 27, 2022 01:47
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The point is to make you sympathize with Poe and not the cold woman who won’t let him be the hero. Then you discover your sympathies were misplaced.
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May 27, 2022 01:52
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General Battuta posted:The point is to make you sympathize with Poe and not the cold woman who won’t let him be the hero. Then you discover your sympathies were misplaced. That’s fair. Not really the narrative journey I enjoy in my Star Wars, but that’s on me.
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May 27, 2022 01:54
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General Battuta posted:The point is to make you sympathize with Poe and not the cold woman who won’t let him be the hero. Then you discover your sympathies were misplaced. Yes, exactly. Which is also why gender can’t be removed from the interpretation.
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May 27, 2022 01:58
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