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SlowBloke posted:Wait, Netherlands and Denmark being huge racists and willing to let people die before getting them in their country I get, but why Sweden? Are they aware that military win is not enough but also reconstruction afterwards? If Ukraine get candidate status, Sweden could get into the rebuild gravy train along other euro countries. Part of the reason why I find this to be thinly sourced, right there. Sweden was a major proponent of inviting Turkey into the club, and they’re order of magnitude more supportive of Ukraine.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:30
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Other than being huge racists or whatever, Denmarks government is mainly concerned with Ukraine not living up to the usual requirements for candidacy. Machine translated because I'm tired. Jeppe Kofoed is Denmarks foreign minister. https://avisendanmark.dk/artikel/eu-kommissionen-overvejer-ukraines-%C3%B8nske-om-medlemskab quote:At the same time, Jeppe Kofod proposes that Ukraine must implement reforms in order to obtain candidate status.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:33
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SlowBloke posted:Wait, Netherlands and Denmark being huge racists and willing to let people die before getting them in their country I get, but why Sweden? Are they aware that military win is not enough but also reconstruction afterwards? If Ukraine get candidate status, Sweden could get into the rebuild gravy train along other euro countries. We (Denmark) pretty much opened our doors fully for Ukrainian refugees and support for Ukraine is extremely popular, so this is a puzzling piece of news. There hasn't been much public debate on this and I highly doubt the government would pick this fight even they were skeptical of granting candidate status for Ukraine. It's very strange, and I'm not sure it is true. If it is true - the government will likely have to backpedal as it could cost them at the election which is could come any day as they've been threatened with a vote of no confidence over being quite close to establishing refugee camps in Rwanda (where non-European refugees would be sent). I'm really quite baffled by this news. The head civil servant is extremely pro-Ukraine, to the extent that the ambassador thanked her personally, which is awkward as civil servants are supposed to be apolitical - the population is polling some of the most pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia, pro-NATO numbers in Europe (higher than even Poland on some questions). Denmark is also historically known for championing EU expansion and one of our former Foreign Ministers made the inclusion of former Warsaw Pact members in the EU and NATO his personal quest. The only exception is in regards to Turkey. I would expect resistance from Hungary, Netherlands, Austria - but not Denmark. Very strange. Edit: Ah, the stickler for rules position. I think that should not be interpreted as resistance or a veto. It's just the default. Denmark won't block this over fine print. But we'll likely make some kind of requirement that fast-tracked candidacy should be predicated on reforms being implemented later. PederP fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 19:39
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SlowBloke posted:Wait, Netherlands and Denmark being huge racists and willing to let people die before getting them in their country I get, but why Sweden? Are they aware that military win is not enough but also reconstruction afterwards? If Ukraine get candidate status, Sweden could get into the rebuild gravy train along other euro countries. It's a nice thought, but Ukraine is unfit to join EU at the moment. For one because there is an invading army in the country which makes open borders, trade etc. complicated. Not everything is about racism, you know. Also we made the mistake of letting Hungary, Poland, Denmark, Britain etc. in, we have to be more careful in the selection process.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:07
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We're reading Twitter tea leaves basically, but that list is somewhat surprising to me too. The other 'realpolitik' reason for current EU members rejecting Ukraine that I've seen referenced from the technocrats is that it would swing the power balance within the EU. Ukraine is a populous country and due to certain EU mechanisms this would diminish the power of Germany, France and the other usual suspects. Not sure how important those considerations are in this situation / in the short term, since the most obvious goal is to signal to Russia that Europe's security structure is changing beyond Russia's control 
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Jun 13, 2022 20:14
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Nenonen posted:It's a nice thought, but Ukraine is unfit to join EU at the moment. For one because there is an invading army in the country which makes open borders, trade etc. complicated. Not everything is about racism, you know. Candidate status doesn't mean poo poo though.Turkey's been a candidate since like '99. It would be a very symbolic thing at this point and blocking it seems dumb.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:22
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m looking into that thread, and it does appear to be somewhat thin on sources. A few brief, vacuous “country says” statements. Mette Fredericksen is horrible but I find it difficult to believe she's against UA getting candidate status.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:57
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mobby_6kl posted:Candidate status doesn't mean poo poo though.Turkey's been a candidate since like '99. It would be a very symbolic thing at this point and blocking it seems dumb. That is precisely why it shouldn't be done. gently caress dumb symbolic candidacy for countries that are not fit for membership. What Ukraine needs is monetary and material support, not some PDF diploma that they can print and hang on their wall. EU just removed import tariffs for Ukrainian companies, that alone is more meaningful than any candidate membership.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:15
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Nenonen posted:That is precisely why it shouldn't be done. gently caress dumb symbolic candidacy for countries that are not fit for membership. What Ukraine needs is monetary and material support, not some PDF diploma that they can print and hang on their wall. Legally speaking, candidacy is a privileged status with direct access to EU funding, specifically for implementing various reforms towards accession. That’s the entirety reasoning behind that status requiring a lengthy process, with Turkey being basically the sole mistake of it, and just arguably so, with several conflicting factors behind it. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 22:21
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Nenonen posted:That is precisely why it shouldn't be done. gently caress dumb symbolic candidacy for countries that are not fit for membership. What Ukraine needs is monetary and material support, not some PDF diploma that they can print and hang on their wall. This shows some sort of solidarity and acceptance as part of the european community and on a more direct path to membership. If the weapon shipments never materialize and we're forced into Munich-ing the south-east, that's at least some sort of consolation prize. Plus as cinci says, this will opens up some funding possibilities. The country doesn't get any voting rights or become a member until all criteria are fulfilled anyway so "it's not quite ready" doesn't have to be a showstopper, under the circumstances.
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Jun 13, 2022 23:08
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Over the last few days it would seem Russia is ever so slightly shifting their focus off of seven donuts. There's been a few counter offensives in the North and South which Ukraine has had minor successes in. Now I'm not sure of Ukraine which of the next two things it is are they shifting focus because they're losing or shifting focus because they're winning and that's hard to tell. they had taken the city and then now have been locked in a week-long siege. That's not usually a good thing for the offensive. I mean the false route must have caused major issues in Russia's forces at the siege whether that's with morale or actual battlefield wounds. If the Russian army is unable to break the defense I ponder their next to move. I mean it'll probably start with lots and lots of artillery being dumped everywhere and Air raid sirens all over the loving place but after that what's the next move? They have a lot of river to cross over the next month or so and that's proven to be deadly for the Russian army of the past and the present. It's dangerous for any army. Doing so with a very motivated defender is an extremely casualty rich environment with a majority of people taking some wounds in the process whether that's broken finger broken arm broken leg shot whatever or you know just taking a nasty blow to The Head or something. Russia also has their most expert units like the Wagner groups "Adolf Hitler Brigade" (the last part is a joke) among others and those units we're definitely affected by the artillery barrage that Ukraine did when the Russians entered the town. So you just units are going to be replaced by more conscripts with less combat experience and in this we may see a real decisive victory. The decisive victory we've been dreaming on since February 25th. Now who knows what the ammo shortages will do and how quickly they will be remedied. If we see a fast emergency Berlin airlift style drop of ammunition and NATO weaponry the fight will continue on. And while this is going on Ukraine is fortifying its defensive capabilities in and around the area currently in combat. Now as it's been posted a bit, you crane is starting to feel the effects of long War which is ammo shortages artillery deficits and the likes. The longer that goes on without clear cut supply chain increases the worst things will get. Now in some cases the Russian military may make the right calls. what they may be doing is cycling units in and out of the combat zone to keep morale up and also create a more seasoned army which would help the at-large offensive. Now are they actually doing this that is to be determined. https://t.me/lumsrc/1786 https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/13-june-russian-forces-conducted-assault-actions-in-sieverodonetsk Russian forces bringing more reinforcements at Kryvyi Rih direction, - General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the evening report https://t.me/lumsrc/1789
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Jun 14, 2022 01:54
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Over the last few days it would seem Russia is ever so slightly shifting their focus off of seven donuts.
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Jun 14, 2022 01:58
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Excellent analysis, WAR CRIME GIGOLO. Time is ticking for the Russian war machine - I give them another month maximum before the influx of new material and recruits from the Ukrainian side puts further advancement to a permanent halt. Any last push will have to start ASAP. Or will Putin trench in at the current battle lines and sue for peace? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 02:00
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SECDEF comments from today (most of the comments were about stance in the Pacific/Asia, given that he was visiting Thailand)quote:... https://www.defense.gov/News/Transc...ngkok-thailand/
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Jun 14, 2022 02:00
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Rust Martialis posted:Mette Fredericksen is horrible but I find it difficult to believe she's against UA getting candidate status. She's been critical of the size of the EU bureaucracy and its legal areas of control so while she's pro-EU she wants a smaller version of it.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:06
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Southern Donetsk? I don't normally hurrr typos but I couldn't figure out what you meant and I just got lost. Sieverodonetsk. Google voice to text absolutely hates ukrianian/Russian city names. I fixed all the "you cranes" but missed that one.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:10
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Calibanibal posted:Or will Putin trench in at the current battle lines and sue for peace? This keeps coming up as a viable path to victory (or something to be called a victory at least) for Russia but it feels off to me. Is anyone in Putin's inner circle willing and emotionally capable of saying "Welp we tried, this is the best we can do for now"?
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Jun 14, 2022 02:13
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DarklyDreaming posted:This keeps coming up as a viable path to victory (or something to be called a victory at least) for Russia but it feels off to me. Is anyone in Putin's inner circle willing and emotionally capable of saying "Welp we tried, this is the best we can do for now"? I think Russia failing to take Odessa as of yet makes this path unviable. While the port can be heavily invested into by the Russian Navy it still is a port. Also the Ukrainian military being within arty range of Kherson makes this untenable. I mean digging in is great and all but without a Minsk 3 it's not going to make sense.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:17
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DarklyDreaming posted:This keeps coming up as a viable path to victory (or something to be called a victory at least) for Russia but it feels off to me. Is anyone in Putin's inner circle willing and emotionally capable of saying "Welp we tried, this is the best we can do for now"? Ukraine's not going to stop fighting, regardless.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:32
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.   
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Jun 14, 2022 02:47
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DarklyDreaming posted:This keeps coming up as a viable path to victory (or something to be called a victory at least) for Russia but it feels off to me. Is anyone in Putin's inner circle willing and emotionally capable of saying "Welp we tried, this is the best we can do for now"? I was expecting this to happen once the Russians had full control over Sievierodonetsk (Seven Donuts, lol). Full control of that city would allow the Russian brass to say ‘mission accomplished, we eliminated the nazis, helped the ethnic Russians who needed it, and liberated our occupied providences in the Donbas! Good job everyone.’ Sievierodonetsk is also a geographically good place to partition the country. Taking Sievierodonetsk thus far has been incredibly bloody and will likely to be incredibly bloody for a while more. It will probably be one of the most brutal battles in the entire war. Not much information is trickling out of there as of today, but once it is in the rear view mirror, we’ll probably be able to see in detail how insane the whole thing was. I also suspect that part of the reason the Russians aren’t letting go of the territory just north of Kharkiv is so they can use it for a bargaining chip if the peace talks come. I am just some guy whose credentials are playing Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a child, so I probably don’t know what I am talking about.
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Jun 14, 2022 04:08
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jaete posted:A few days ago someone else was saying Ukraine has about 150 of those NATO howitzers now, which helps a little bit I guess, though it's still far from the 1000 they are saying they need. It appears the transfers are happening about as quickly as they can train up the crews for them
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Jun 14, 2022 04:34
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1535651176116625408?t=-bcCEeTOsgey2rHPq0DZYg&s=19 Look, I'm not a Russian apologist but this guy was a person with hopes and dreams. Apparently he tried hard to excel at tank. I wish we weren't joking about his death.  Lots of young guys dying because of old guys decisions.
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Jun 14, 2022 04:44
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celewign posted:Look, I'm not a Russian apologist but this guy was a person with hopes and dreams. Apparently he tried hard to excel at tank. I wish we weren't joking about his death. Everybody has hopes and dreams. I'm not sure "tank ace fighting to annex neighboring country because ethno-nationalism and empire" really leaves one in a particularly pitiable place when you eventually get Whittmann'd.
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Jun 14, 2022 05:00
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celewign posted:Look, I'm not a Russian apologist but this guy was a person with hopes and dreams. Apparently he tried hard to excel at tank. I wish we weren't joking about his death. Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 05:14
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Chill Monster posted:I was expecting this to happen once the Russians had full control over Sievierodonetsk (Seven Donuts, lol). They ordered a dozen but couldn't finish them off
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Jun 14, 2022 05:25
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celewign posted:Look, I'm not a Russian apologist but this guy was a person with hopes and dreams. Apparently he tried hard to excel at tank. I wish we weren't joking about his death. My general attitude is gently caress Russia and gently caress Putin and I hope they get the poo poo kicked out of them, but I also think the thread is pretty bloodthirsty at times. This guy probably had it coming. Even if not, he was a part of an invading army, and that army should be stopped, which means killing its soldiers, tragic though that sometimes must be. Celebrating Russian defeats is good because the defeat of Russia in the war is for the good. But I also wish we weren’t joking about his death. Edit: not expecting many posters on somethingawful.com to agree with me, and, whatever, that’s fine. I just want to express solidarity with that one person who’s sad about the situation. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 05:50
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Heithinn Grasida posted:My general attitude is gently caress Russia and gently caress Putin and I hope they get the poo poo kicked out of them, but I also think the thread is pretty bloodthirsty at times. I don't really mind joking about the deaths of Russian soldiers when those same soldiers are probably joking about all the Ukrainian civilians they have raped and murdered.
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Jun 14, 2022 06:28
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Heithinn Grasida posted:My general attitude is gently caress Russia and gently caress Putin and I hope they get the poo poo kicked out of them, but I also think the thread is pretty bloodthirsty at times. 50,000 dead citizens in Mariupol alone cry out for vengeance at this point. And this while we have vatniks still killing, raping, and murdering ukrainian civilians. Everyone has a choice, even if they think they don't have one. And since their choice is to be rapists and murderers, they can all go die or be maimed. They invaded a peaceful neighbor because that monkey in the kremlin wanted to pull a land grab. This is merely the consequences of these actions. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 08:47
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zone posted:50,000 dead citizens in Mariupol alone cry out for vengeance at this point. And this while we have vatniks still killing, raping, and murdering ukrainian civilians. Everyone has a choice, even if they think they don't have one. And since their choice is to be rapists and murderers, they can all go die or be maimed. They invaded a peaceful neighbor because that monkey in the kremlin wanted to pull a land grab. This is merely the consequences of these actions. This is really a gross attitude to have, especially without self reflection. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 08:57
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A big flaming stink posted:This is really a gross attitude to have, especially without self reflection. With all due respect, what's more gross, going door to door to shoot people because you think they might be associated with the Ukrainian military, kidnapping a couple million people and sending them to loving Siberia, and razing towns to the ground because they dared to be in your way during your attempt at a land grab? or saying that the ones involved in this bullshit should get what's coming to them eh?
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Jun 14, 2022 09:04
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zone posted:50,000 dead citizens in Mariupol alone cry out for vengeance at this point. And this while we have vatniks still killing, raping, and murdering ukrainian civilians. Everyone has a choice, even if they think they don't have one. And since their choice is to be rapists and murderers, they can all go die or be maimed. They invaded a peaceful neighbor because that monkey in the kremlin wanted to pull a land grab. This is merely the consequences of these actions. The only way to survive is… DEHUMANIZE YOURSELF AND FACE TO BLOODSHED. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 09:07
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A big flaming stink posted:This is really a gross attitude to have, especially without self reflection. 
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Jun 14, 2022 09:11
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A big flaming stink posted:This is really a gross attitude to have, especially without self reflection. Won't someone think of the poor Russian fascists, they're only there to commit some light genocide and other war crimes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 09:16
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A big flaming stink posted:This is really a gross attitude to have, especially without self reflection. I've reflected in it and it's absolutely true (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2022 09:19
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zone posted:With all due respect, what's more gross, going door to door to shoot people because you think they might be associated with the Ukrainian military, kidnapping a couple million people and sending them to loving Siberia, and razing towns to the ground because they dared to be in your way during your attempt at a land grab? or saying that the ones involved in this bullshit should get what's coming to them eh? yes individuals engaging in war crimes are worse than those fantasizing about others suffering, that is trivially obvious. it still does not change that immersing yourself into fantasies of brutal violence is hosed
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Jun 14, 2022 09:21
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https://twitter.com/CITeam_en/status/1529780946509209603 huh, another commander? I wonder why Dvornikov got sacked, then? probably because they haven't captured Luhansk fully yet, maybe.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:22
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A big flaming stink posted:yes individuals engaging in war crimes are worse than those fantasizing about others suffering, that is trivially obvious. it still does not change that immersing yourself into fantasies of brutal violence is hosed In case you haven't noticed, brutal violence is ongoing, and brutal violence is the only way it will stop.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:26
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A big flaming stink posted:yes individuals engaging in war crimes are worse than those fantasizing about others suffering, that is trivially obvious. it still does not change that immersing yourself into fantasies of brutal violence is hosed My brother in christ, people who go fight wars should be prepared to be killed. That's kind of what happens as a result of putting your life at risk. If they didn't want to die, they could have done n number of things to get themselves away from the war or invalided out. If you choose to commit war crimes, then someone else is perfectly justified to put a bullet in you in exchange, or hang you after a trial if necessary. That said, Ukraine doesn't have the death penalty for a couple decades now, so any one of them that gets caught can either be prisoner swapped or help rebuild the country after the rest of them get thrown out.
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Jun 14, 2022 09:26
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some  for the invading scum please(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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