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Ah here we go again, Germany and France not being loving useless lasted all of a day.
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Jun 17, 2022 01:08
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The position might be nonsensical but at least its consistent. I'm surprised that Macron is saying that's the semi official NATO position though. Though maybe its a moot point because they've already shipped all the soviet tanks and planes that the Ukrainians know how to use and training and shipping NATO versions is not the priority right now.
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Jun 17, 2022 01:18
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Macron: We agreed no tanks will be transferred. Zelensky: Who's this we you speak of, Monsieur?
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Jun 17, 2022 01:27
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Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1537565925796462593?s=20&t=IAxPiItaINAkWeyRSv2xgg  Didn't someone already say that there's no "agreement" to not provide tanks? Ffs, then you're not really committed to Ukraine winning this with the lowest human cost possible, are you?
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Jun 17, 2022 01:30
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mobby_6kl posted:
What do you think he spent all that time talking to Putin about?
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Jun 17, 2022 01:36
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mobby_6kl posted:
It looks like the agreement only includes France and Germany. Poland and I think Czechia have already provided tanks. "We shouldn't humiliate Russia" has moved to "We shouldn't provide the weapons that Ukraine could use to humiliate Russia."
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Jun 17, 2022 01:36
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Scared of domestic arms hit when one inevitably gets taken out by a quad copter dropping mortar shells from ww2
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Jun 17, 2022 01:47
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Maybe by "we" Macron means "Russia and France", since I think he's talked with Putin more than he's talked with Zelensky.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:00
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FishBulbia posted:Scared of domestic arms hit when one inevitably gets taken out by a quad copter dropping mortar shells from ww2 I kind of wonder if this has something to do with it. If Ukraine got any kind of western tanks, it might be too much of an intelligence bonanza for Russia when they start seeing what they have that can knock them out.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:32
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Charliegrs posted:I kind of wonder if this has something to do with it. If Ukraine got any kind of western tanks, it might be too much of an intelligence bonanza for Russia when they start seeing what they have that can knock them out. I am starting to suspect it does. Some of the EU has transferred T-72s, but the idea of a burnt out Abrams or leopard on the propaganda reel starts to undermine the MIC the prohibition on MBT specifically also makes sense then, as those are expected to survive enemy fire FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 02:39
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FishBulbia posted:I am starting to suspect it does. Some of the EU has transferred T-72s, but the idea of a burnt out Abrams or leopard on the propaganda reel starts to undermine the MIC The US has been using (and losing) Abrams tanks for a long time. There's plenty of pictures of them already. I doubt that's a serious concern. It's the same problem with supplying them with F-16s or other NATO hardware. No one knows how to repair or maintain them, Ukraine has no parts inventory or weapon loaders or any other specialized tools for them. It takes time to get crews trained up on them.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:47
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Deteriorata posted:The US has been using (and losing) Abrams tanks for a long time. There's plenty of pictures of them already. I doubt that's a serious concern. Except those caveats also apply to all of the other vehicles they've given
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Jun 17, 2022 02:48
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FishBulbia posted:Except those caveats also apply to all of the other vehicles they've given And the situation there is extra messy since there is such a mismash with lots of different kinds.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:55
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.   
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Jun 17, 2022 02:56
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Oh btw Putin is to make a "very important speech" today at the economic forum socials indicate it could be anything from announcing a new lada sedan to declaring that the missiles have already been fired.
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Jun 17, 2022 04:27
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Deteriorata posted:The US has been using (and losing) Abrams tanks for a long time. There's plenty of pictures of them already. I doubt that's a serious concern. The US has lost like, a handful of Abrams in the 40+ years they've been in service. And I think most of those have been to friendly fire. We've sold export models to various countries with a weaker form of armor and quite a few of those have been destroyed. But the US version hasn't really been tested against the latest AT weapons that Russia uses (at least not to my knowledge and not publicly) But like you said, the logistics and training part of the equation is definitely the most limiting factor to getting western tanks into Ukrainian hands. But still I bet if it was doable the west would be hesitant to let the Russians find out just what they can take them out with.
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Jun 17, 2022 04:30
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Charliegrs posted:The US has lost like, a handful of Abrams in the 40+ years they've been in service. And I think most of those have been to friendly fire. We've sold export models to various countries with a weaker form of armor and quite a few of those have been destroyed. But the US version hasn't really been tested against the latest AT weapons that Russia uses (at least not to my knowledge and not publicly) I would doubt they would send the US version to Ukraine. They'd get the export version like everyone else.
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Jun 17, 2022 04:53
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Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1537565925796462593?s=20&t=IAxPiItaINAkWeyRSv2xgg Now we know why Zelensky was making that face.
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Jun 17, 2022 05:14
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It's so irritating to hear "oh if the west gives tanks that will meajbWW3! HOWEVER, arty drones small and heavy arms, AFVs IFVs (Which mostly...LOOK LIKE TANKS ) so what is the loving loving loving reason? Other than it might the death of the Russian federation which would salt the investments that France and Britain have made into Russia. gently caress these Globalist bastards. A tank is not good without spare parts. If the US or Germany or whatever just says "okay you have to give us an engine to get an engine" and did that for a year and cut off the one to one swap. Guess what? The tanks wouldn't be able to be used forever!
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Jun 17, 2022 05:22
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Charliegrs posted:But the US version hasn't really been tested against the latest AT weapons that Russia uses (at least not to my knowledge and not publicly) Russian Kornets have been publicly known to be able to knock out or destroy even a upgraded Abrams (and Leopard2's) for a long time since they have a top strike capability. The Iraqi special forces had a few back in 2003 or so and used them to knock out some Abrams for instance. They just didn't have very many of them so it didn't make a big difference in the outcome of any battles much less the war. Various foreign govt. that got the export version of the Abrams have also been knocked out by Kornet as well. Kornet is usually regarded as a pretty good ATGM since Russia has been continuously upgrading them much like the US has been upgrading Javelin since it was introduced years ago. The general attitude towards it and other ATGM's by tankers that I've seen is "yeah they're dangerous but that is why CAS is a thing". They don't seem to be under any illusions that their tanks will be invincible to them at all.
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Jun 17, 2022 07:05
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Russian Kornets have been publicly known to be able to knock out or destroy even a upgraded Abrams (and Leopard2's) for a long time since they have a top strike capability. The Iraqi special forces had a few back in 2003 or so and used them to knock out some Abrams for instance. They just didn't have very many of them so it didn't make a big difference in the outcome of any battles much less the war. This is why so much effort is being spent to create point defense systems for ground vehicles, we're not quite there yet, but we've had limited success here and there with various ideas and concepts like the trophy system. Once we get there however, we're going to see a huge change in modern warfare that's going to flip things on it's head.
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Jun 17, 2022 07:15
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mobby_6kl posted:
That someone was a German civil servant making poo poo up. They got dogpiled and walked it back in the matter of hours, so this just more of the same - especially after Ukraine has received 100s of MBTs already. I think it’s France and Germany specifically that actually simply are too afraid to offer that sort of help, but they also cannot say anything more concrete than “it’s almost an informal agreement” because Americans won’t give a gently caress, and Poland, together with much of Eastern Europe and Nordics, is going to send the last pair of its pants if the end result hurts Putin. Deteriorata posted:The US has been using (and losing) Abrams tanks for a long time. There's plenty of pictures of them already. I doubt that's a serious concern. Well, the useful factor here is that we are in month 4 of this war. It’s likewise doubtful that it’ll be over very soon, or that Ukraine won’t be training its soldiers into NATO gear eventually in any case. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 07:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That someone was a German civil servant making poo poo up. They got dogpiled and walked it back in the matter of hours, so this just more of the saw - especially after Ukraine has received 100s of MBTs already. I think it’s France and Germany specifically that actually simply are too afraid to offer that sort of help, but they also cannot say anything more concrete than “it’s almost an informal agreement” because Americans won’t give a gently caress, and Poland, together with much of Eastern Europe and Nordics, is going to send the last pair of its pants if the end result hurts Putin. Where do I mail my pants for the war effort, and do ai have to poo poo in them first or not?
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Jun 17, 2022 07:41
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That someone was a German civil servant making poo poo up. They got dogpiled and walked it back in the matter of hours, so this just more of the same - especially after Ukraine has received 100s of MBTs already. I think it’s France and Germany specifically that actually simply are too afraid to offer that sort of help, but they also cannot say anything more concrete than “it’s almost an informal agreement” because Americans won’t give a gently caress, and Poland, together with much of Eastern Europe and Nordics, is going to send the last pair of its pants if the end result hurts Putin. It's basically a decision between two countries: the US and Germany. If the US is not willing (or able) to supply Abrams tanks, then it leaves only Germany as the Leopard family is the only other MBT that can conceivably be supplied to Ukraine in any meaningful way - both the Challenger2 and LeClerc are out of production and canibalizing their own stocks for spare parts already.
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Jun 17, 2022 08:57
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It would appear that the action has come to the Snake Island sooner than expected.  Something gets blown up with a rocket.https://twitter.com/oalexanderdk/status/1537694159229820928 Alleged target is Vasiliy Bekh tug boat carrying a Tor system onboard. The initial Odessa oblast’ military governor claim attributed this to Harpoon systems, but that has been since then walked back to a non-descriptive “rocket strike”. https://t.me/odeskaODA/640 cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 10:21
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cinci zoo sniper posted:It would appear that the action has come to the Snake Island sooner than expected. Oh good, I was worried we stopped blowing poo poo up on snake island. Looks like a TB2 strike? Or maybe it was just observed from one. cinci zoo sniper posted:That someone was a German civil servant making poo poo up. They got dogpiled and walked it back in the matter of hours, so this just more of the same - especially after Ukraine has received 100s of MBTs already. I think it’s France and Germany specifically that actually simply are too afraid to offer that sort of help, but they also cannot say anything more concrete than “it’s almost an informal agreement” because Americans won’t give a gently caress, and Poland, together with much of Eastern Europe and Nordics, is going to send the last pair of its pants if the end result hurts Putin. Even if it's just Macron Macronining again, I think it's just harmful messaging at the very least. Putin has to understand that he can't win this. As it is he might be hoping Ukraine will run out of tanks and planes before he does.
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Jun 17, 2022 10:41
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Korean K2? Bit expensive and not that many around but Turkey and Poland have production licenses? Bit expensive but not too heavy, three man crew, some protection against ATGMs.GaussianCopula posted:It's basically a decision between two countries: the US and Germany. If the US is not willing (or able) to supply Abrams tanks, then it leaves only Germany as the Leopard family is the only other MBT that can conceivably be supplied to Ukraine in any meaningful way - both the Challenger2 and LeClerc are out of production and canibalizing their own stocks for spare parts already.
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Jun 17, 2022 10:50
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mobby_6kl posted:Oh good, I was worried we stopped blowing poo poo up on snake island. Looks like a TB2 strike? Or maybe it was just observed from one. I have seen some people saying that way too much of damaged for a TB2 strike, but no those weren’t accounts I’m familiar with. mobby_6kl posted:Wasn't it a Czech NATO guy? Maybe I'm misremembering. Anyway I'm sure nobody would officially confirm or deny this. Czechia delivered several dozens of MBTs to Ukraine ~2 months ago. The person who spouted about “informal agreement” was Siemtje Möller, parliamentary secretary of Ministry of Defence of Germany (she, and the defence minister, are from Scholz’s party). https://www.zdf.de/politik/berlin-direkt/berlin-direkt-moeller-nato-liefert-keine-westlichen-panzermodelle-100.html It was such a shameless lie that even the head of her party felt compelled to speak out against it just days later. https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/saskia-esken-spd-widerspricht-verteidigungs-staatssekretaerin-moeller-100.html cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 10:55
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Korean K2? Bit expensive and not that many around but Turkey and Poland have production licenses? Bit expensive but not too heavy, three man crew, some protection against ATGMs. Afaik Poland is still negotiating their licence (or has stopped it after they announced going for the Abrams) and the Turkish variant, the Altay is still in prototype stage, which precludes it from being a viable alternative. Korea themselves have produced under 300 units according, which isn't a lot given their own security requirements and the logistics of getting tanks and their supply from South Korea to Ukraine would be a nightmare.
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Jun 17, 2022 11:11
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https://twitter.com/davekeating/status/1537742812439101441 Council vote next week. Edit: https://twitter.com/k_sonin/status/1537708000672104448 cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 11:26
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Deteriorata posted:The US has been using (and losing) Abrams tanks for a long time. There's plenty of pictures of them already. I doubt that's a serious concern. This is a pretty simple problem to fix, you just hire contractors. There are more than enough people in the world who would be willing to work on Ukrainian F-16s for $$$.
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Jun 17, 2022 12:29
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PeterCat posted:This is a pretty simple problem to fix, you just hire contractors. There are more than enough people in the world who would be willing to work on Ukrainian F-16s for $$$. Yeah I think a lot of the supply, training and logistics concerns are very real but absolutely possible to overcome with a tiny but of motivation. If Macron is saying no tanks or planes, then of course it's not gonna happen because they don't want it to happen, not because it's somehow impossible. I don't think the Western EU countries still fully get how critical this is for their neighbors. They want Ukraine to win but don't want to ensure that Ukraine has party in aircraft, navy, missiles, etc.
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Jun 17, 2022 13:07
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I think the number of mercenary groups with experience working on newer vehicles & a willingness to sit around in a country being heavily outshelled is actually quite limited. Unless you're either proposing that every wreck and damaged vehicle be ferried out of Ukraine for repairs/re-arming/maintenance, or that NATO forces start placing their soldiers & mechanics in Ukraine. But yeah, that's a pretty significant problem both with Ukraine's hodgepodge armaments and with the idea of unloading new toys on them; they don't have a glut of spare parts nor experienced mechanics to maintain this stuff. Incidentally, this was also an issue during World War 2; Axis forces had a tapestry of bespoke tank types and variants, which made maintaining them a nightmare, whereas the eastern front mainly featured three (mainly one). And they were very experienced with maintaining/repairing/producing parts for them.
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Jun 17, 2022 13:13
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PeterCat posted:This is a pretty simple problem to fix, you just hire contractors. There are more than enough people in the world who would be willing to work on Ukrainian F-16s for $$$. Might as well just deploy troops then. The most escalatory action isn't always the best. UA airforce seems to be doing okay without American equipment.
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Jun 17, 2022 13:13
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I'm for maximal aid to Ukraine, it just feels like some people are doing the thing where they assume something they know nothing about must be easy. "The military is dumb poo poo for 18 year olds, I'm sure if we just give them 1,000 Gundams without spare parts and all the controls labeled in Japanese the Ukrainians can figure it out, it's all just Army poo poo."
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Jun 17, 2022 13:27
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French: Win but don't humiliate them Americans: Win but not too fast Germans: Win is escalatory language. Let's discuss post-war relationships first. Poles: Kill all of them on your land. Baltics: What the Poles said, but make sure Putin knows you won. We're not saying rub it in, but do that too.
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Jun 17, 2022 13:29
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Basically no Russian gains in the last week
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Jun 17, 2022 13:32
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the popes toes posted:French: Win but don't humiliate them The Poles and Baltics both have national mythologies centered around killing Russians, this is basically a religious event for them. The Poles literally.
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Jun 17, 2022 13:33
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Remember the mystery of 3 countries with objections on candidacy bid? It was the Netherlands, as expected, but also Denmark and Portugal. https://euobserver.com/world/155242
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Jun 17, 2022 13:34
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sean10mm posted:I'm for maximal aid to Ukraine, it just feels like some people are doing the thing where they assume something they know nothing about must be easy. Except a lot of this is solvable. Spare parts are a standard part of deploying stuff. Manuals can be translated. Yes, that takes time, but the war has been going on for a while. (Also Ukraine is using AGTM systems with Arabic UI. Granted, those are Ukrainian systems, so there is probably some helpful documentation not on screen).
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Jun 17, 2022 13:34
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