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apophenium posted:Started Libra. Loving it. My first DeLillo. Might do American Tabloid next. Or maybe I'll try another Pynchon. Why are these kinds of books so good? I love these horrible men and hate that they say stuff I sorta agree with. Just finished Libra myself. It’s really stunning. I highly recommend American Tabloid, but just know it’s way, wayyy pulpier. I read it immediately after finishing Ellroy’s LA quartet, which I would recommend doing except for the fact binging Ellroy can take a toll on your psyche, especially if you’re already uneasy about sympathizing with horrible men.
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Jun 4, 2022 02:12
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derp posted:does it??? Maybe!!! Like, I'm not saying that anyone who fancies anyone is Literally As Bad As Humbert Humbert. I'm just saying it doesn't seem wild to read Lolita as being, on some level, a dark parable. Many people can balance their own desires with respect for the autonomy of others. On the other hand, look around: many people - particularly men - can't, or anyway don't. Heath posted:Recall that this memoir is being addressed to a jury. HH doesn't need to lie about killing Quilty -- that murder was a crime of passion, and the victim was a predator and child pornographer who snatched Lolita away, and he deserved what he got. It's sympathetic in that way. Admitting to killing Charlotte is less so, since she is fully innocent. Ah, fair enough. Maybe I'm too credulous! I'll have to read it again sometime with this idea in mind.
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Jun 4, 2022 12:15
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Lobster Henry posted:Maybe!!! Like, I'm not saying that anyone who fancies anyone is Literally As Bad As Humbert Humbert. I'm just saying it doesn't seem wild to read Lolita as being, on some level, a dark parable. Many people can balance their own desires with respect for the autonomy of others. On the other hand, look around: many people - particularly men - can't, or anyway don't. This is also basically the theme of his short story "A Nursery Tale". I feel like most of Nabokovs protagonists r sort of educated buffoonish men who are at some level of disconnect from reality due to a (often narcissitic) hyper-obsession. Usually undermined/exacerbated by a young lady whos more in touch with reality and therefore able to navigate around them (generally thru some sort of scheme). Im not the biggest fan of his...tbqh its all a little too broadly comedic for me & I do think he has a kind of nasty view of women (and people in general, but I feel the women often get the short-stick when it comes to interiority ), its funny he finds Don Quixote too mean-spirited/cruel because I'd say the same thing about most of his work. That said, I like it all okay & Pnin and The Gift the most of what ive read. Pnin I feel like is the most overtly sweet and I appreciate The Gift's messiness...very much him just spilling his own life on the table. Also its funny that both it & Notes from Underground have significant portions dedicated to attempted roasts of Chernyshevsky — that guy was living in their heads rent free.
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Jun 5, 2022 00:39
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Hat Thoughts posted:Also its funny that both it & Notes from Underground have significant portions dedicated to attempted roasts of Chernyshevsky — that guy was living in their heads rent free. True but also I've tried to read What Is To Be Done and it's loving grim. I'll take cruel reactionary irony over sanctimonious leftist utopias any day
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Jun 5, 2022 14:28
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Ras Het posted:True but also I've tried to read What Is To Be Done and it's loving grim. I'll take cruel reactionary irony over sanctimonious leftist utopias any day Lol I actually did the same thing myself and gave up pretty quick. I distinctly remember putting it down when it had two men discussing how to help the protagonist and there was a long authorly aside along the lines of, “and neither of them wanted to attract her in doing this. Does this shock you? Do you find that unbelievable? Well, my friend, this is the young person of today. They are interested only in the betterment of others and often are not even thinking of themselves in doing so. And if you have trouble believing that…” etc. etc. Kind of funny but not so funny when I considered how much of the book remained.
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Jun 5, 2022 22:38
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derp posted:the pull quotes on my copy are all about how funny it is O_O Reactions to Lolita have been weird since it came out but to be fair, it is funny, which is part of Humbert trying to seduce the reader. I've sometimes thought the best way to adapt Lolita would be as a stand-up comedy routine, because humor is one of the most effective ways to (try to) bring people onto your side of a story, and would really go hand-in-hand with stuff like how much of Louis CK's stand-up routines (remember all the great jokes about public masturbation?) are now grimly unfunny in light of his abuse. Honestly, it's part of why I actually really like the musical adaptation, because for all of its faults it comes the closest to the actual tone of the novel, where you have to do battle with his framing of events.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:54
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I've been listening to the Jamie Loftus podcast recommended in this thread and between that and re-re-reading the book and taking extensive notes on it I am firmly in the camp that it just shouldn't be adapted. I also believe it can't be, but also that it shouldn't be, because loving yeesh some of these are criminal ("Who is that viper / That likes them post-diaper" has been stuck in my head for a week now, like literal brain poison
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Jun 12, 2022 18:04
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I mean, that line is also given to Quilty, who Humbert would love for you to believe is too disgusting to deserve to live. It's the same as in the book, where you're conscious of how Humbert is presenting the other characters to you, as opposed to them existing in a neutral space. It's kind of an interesting use of the genre in that regard.
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Jun 12, 2022 19:45
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What do all the Nabokov heads think of Ada? I struggled with it initially but I’m about a third of the way through and think I’ve got the hang of it. Not quite as wholesome as Pnin but definitely has a heart to it I didn’t get from Lolita or Pale Fire.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:04
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Ada definitely has that, and I think a lot of it has to do with the relationship being consensual, which puts it in a different class than Lolita -- Van Veen has no reason to obscure the fact of his taboo to the reader. Nabokov loves to twist up the beautiful with the obscene, and Ada is allowed to be a more "fun" book with the specter of an incestuous relationship just sort of floating around amidst this bildungsroman. Contrasted with Lolita, where I am realizing on this read through just how often Humbert talks about cum. (Part 1, ch 16, p. 69 in my print, just after Dolores kisses him before leaving for camp) The hollow of my hand was still ivory-full of Lolita... I don't even want to quote the rest of it.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:29
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Really enjoyed the Lolita chat, but my vote still goes to Pale Fire as the superior book that makes me sympathize with a terrible person. I also read Pnin recently and it's interesting to see Nabokov play it straighter in a gentle academic satire. Apparently that book first made his career as an author and it's a nice little novel that still shows his incredible prose. Also speaking of prose, Kofi Awoonor's This Earth, My Brother is simply incredible, alternating chapters of clear novelizing with these surreal prose-poems.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:09
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It's fine to sympathize with Pale Fire's... protagonist(?) because he's not really a villain, he's just laughably pathetic and pitiable. Humbert Humbert is the worst kind of human being.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:14
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Yeah he's really just sad and possibly insane.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:21
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I’m rereading Lolita due to this thread, and I’m struggling. The writing is amazing but the subject matter is just so appalling
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Jun 17, 2022 00:43
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I’m rereading Lolita due to this thread, and I’m struggling. The writing is amazing but the subject matter is just so appalling
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Jun 17, 2022 00:44
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blue squares posted:I’m rereading Lolita due to this thread, and I’m struggling. The writing is amazing but the subject matter is just so appalling There were multiple points where even though I was totally enthralled by the book I had to actually put it down and get up and do something else for a while (especially the nutpunch that is the end of part 1) but I always came back to it. I think treating it a bit like a true crime novel helps.
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Jun 17, 2022 00:57
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What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? Lolita’s always been the best example, but this thread is well-read and I’ve rarely had anything match that quality.
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Jun 17, 2022 17:35
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Franchescanado posted:What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? Almost everything Mishima wrote
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Jun 17, 2022 17:35
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derp posted:Almost everything Mishima wrote This. Especially Sailor and Confessions of a Mask
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Jun 17, 2022 17:39
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Franchescanado posted:What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? Anything by Elfriede Jelinek. Lust especially, that is a dark one. It will make you hate men, sex, Austria, children and the lumber industry, not necessarily in that order. Thomas Benrhard also comes to mind. What is it with these Austrians?
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Jun 17, 2022 17:41
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Babyfucker by that one guy who I probably should be glad I can't recall his name Another book you can't be seen with in public
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Jun 17, 2022 17:49
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Heath posted:This. Especially Sailor and Confessions of a Mask What was so horrific about Confessions of a Mask? And to answer the prompt: cheap answer but Child of God by Cormac McCarthy. Any McCarthy would do but that one takes the cake.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:13
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Franchescanado posted:What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? Faulkner's Sanctuary comes to mind. McCarthy's Blood Meridian is probably the next best example after Lolita. Yuri Herrera's short novels Kingdom Cons and The Transmigration of Bodies are in this vein. Egan's Look at Me is pretty hosed up in a lot of ways. And if you want more of the "humorous but everyone is terrible" vibe, Portis's The Masters of Atlantis is a good pick.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:13
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I loved Lolita for its prose. But I did not like the main character and his pedophilia.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:18
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Carly Gay Dead Son posted:What was so horrific about Confessions of a Mask? Mask is just deeply depressing if you read it as being at least semi-autobiographical and it's clear that of all of Mishima's idiosyncrasies his self-loathing and adoration of death seemed (to me, anyway) to be the most pronounced in that novel. It made me wonder what could have been if he had had a more accepting environment. Also at one point the main character diagnoses himself as an ephebophile (in a clinical sense, using that term even) toward young men which is also a theme throughout Mishima's work -- in Runaway Horses he spends a lot of time lingering on Isao Iinuma's tight young kendo bod as the narrator for example
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Jun 17, 2022 19:35
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Carly Gay Dead Son posted:What was so horrific about Confessions of a Mask? not horrific imo, but definitely disturbing. the character is completely obsessed with and turned on by death/suicide/murder
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Jun 17, 2022 19:42
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Grevling posted:I loved Lolita for its prose. But I did not like the main character and his pedophilia. I loved Notes from Underground. But I did not like the main character and his anti-social behavior.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:50
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I loved Sailor who fell from grace with the sea. But I did not like the main character and his kitten-murdering and his mother-sex-watching.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:54
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I loved The Loser. But I did not like the main character and how much of a bitter loser he was.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:55
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I loved The Dead. But I did not like all the zombies and how they went around eating brains.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:05
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derp posted:I loved The Loser. But I did not like the main character and how much of a bitter loser he was. Hey, if you can't be the greatest in the world, what's the point of even having an artistic pursuit? For creativity? Self expression? The beauty of music? That's a Loser's way of thinking and they should self-destruct after destroying a beautiful rare piano.
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Jun 17, 2022 20:23
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Heath posted:Mask is just deeply depressing if you read it as being at least semi-autobiographical and it's clear that of all of Mishima's idiosyncrasies his self-loathing and adoration of death seemed (to me, anyway) to be the most pronounced in that novel. It made me wonder what could have been if he had had a more accepting environment. Also at one point the main character diagnoses himself as an ephebophile (in a clinical sense, using that term even) toward young men which is also a theme throughout Mishima's work -- in Runaway Horses he spends a lot of time lingering on Isao Iinuma's tight young kendo bod as the narrator for example I hear that. I remember the book depressing me to the point of not finishing it when I was in a particular slump re: my sexuality, but then I gave it another go around the start of the pandemic and boy howdy it was night and day. All his self-loathing and gruesome obsessions just made his honesty and perspicacity that much more inspirational. Yeah he's a death-obsessed weirdo living in an oppressive environment, who would go on to stage a failed neo-fascist coup, but heck, at the end of the day, who are we to judge? While we're at it, let's throw Seasons of Migration to the North on the list.
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Jun 17, 2022 21:25
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Franchescanado posted:What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? No longer human by Osamu Dazai, Trieste by Daša Drndić, Satantango by Laszlo Krasznahorkai, Passion according to GH by Clarice Lispector, The Death of Virgil by Hermann Broch most of these are more depressing than disturbing/horrific, but Satantango is disturbing and Trieste being tied to the holocaust obviously ticks the horrific box
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Jun 17, 2022 23:45
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Oooh I forgot, "The Kindly Ones" by Jonathan Littell. Woof 
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Jun 17, 2022 23:53
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I'm honorbound here to recommend Katherine Dunn's Geek Love, which is a bit less on the "horrific narrator" side (the narrator is more of an observer and arguable victim, although she is entangled in the badness and not objective about it), but is definitely about some hosed-up magical realist poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2022 01:33
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Franchescanado posted:What are some other novels that can be described as “incredible prose, but the subject is depressing / disturbing / horrific”? I've heard some praise for Georges Bataille in this domain, though some readers seem to view him as him as being the equivalent of a 1920s/1930s edgelord. Pretty mainstream but there are some legitimately skin crawling passages in Angelou's "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings."
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Jun 19, 2022 16:40
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I'm reading Hemingway's To Have and Have Not. Harry Morgan is a racist piece of poo poo, but this is the most readable Hemingway I've read yet. The pacing constantly propels forward. I did not know it would be so action packed. It's been a good read so far.
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Jun 22, 2022 13:45
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Zurtilik posted:I've heard some praise for Georges Bataille in this domain, though some readers seem to view him as him as being the equivalent of a 1920s/1930s edgelord. love 2 dismiss the work of a famous and influential author with an internet meme word
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Jun 25, 2022 03:15
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A human heart posted:love 2 dismiss the work of a famous and influential author with an internet meme word I have a couple friends who love him. I mean, I suggested him for a reason. Just telling them the vibe I've gotten from detractors.
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Jun 25, 2022 04:55
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mishima confessions of a mask made e think...if this guy was born in france he'd be a lot more chilled out
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Jun 25, 2022 09:43
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