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This fuckin guy.
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Jul 9, 2022 19:22
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Jul 9, 2022 22:48
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more like Olive Gardening
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Jul 9, 2022 23:53
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All we're ever going to see of Wind of Winter is fix up Part 1 to capitalise on the new shows
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Jul 10, 2022 01:11
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I listened to the podcast episode because hey I work 12 hour shifts and I need something to get me through the day. The first half is nothing special; if you've ever listened to any GRRM interview, he plays all the hits. I think the interviewer knew this and he changed gears because at one point I swear GRRM's mood changes in a way I've never heard. When asked about his legacy, GRRM sort of slows down as you can tell he starts looking for words. He then tries to laugh off the question, but the interviewer asks specifically about the main series, and George starts to slow down again. I may be misremembering the details of the question, but I do remember hearing him say things that I haven't heard from him before. Besides that, the other thing of note is that George apparently now has an employee named Sid who has taken it upon herself to keep George from saying yes to projects. One random thought is that he says something along the lines of "it's hard. I'll be out working on a TV show for a month and suddenly the muse will strike and I want to go home and write but I'm in a different state." That's why people have laptops and not emulated Wordstar, man.
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Jul 10, 2022 01:15
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Pennsylvanian posted:One random thought is that he says something along the lines of "it's hard. I'll be out working on a TV show for a month and suddenly the muse will strike and I want to go home and write but I'm in a different state." That's why people have laptops and not emulated Wordstar, man.
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Jul 10, 2022 02:15
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How about just take out a loving memo pad and pen?
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Jul 10, 2022 02:20
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"Give me money for I am a creative genius whose process is guided solely by the passion of the muse... except when doing so would involve discipline, sacrifice, or compromise." -- The American Tolkien.
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Jul 10, 2022 02:23
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Pennsylvanian posted:Besides that, the other thing of note is that George apparently now has an employee named Sid who has taken it upon herself to keep George from saying yes to projects. I would love to get paid who knows how much money to tell Martin not to take on new projects.
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Jul 10, 2022 04:53
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it would be at maximum like $500 to make a wordstar laptop
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Jul 10, 2022 04:55
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TK-42-1 posted:it would be at maximum like $500 to make a wordstar laptop Yes its almost as if he doesnt want to write and is inventing spurious excuses.
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Jul 10, 2022 06:23
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alright, time to sit down and write......oh gently caress, i left the stove on in my other house across the country! sorry areo hotep, you're gonna have to wait
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Jul 10, 2022 07:39
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Listening to the interview, George's troubles with Winds when it comes to him getting "better ideas" remind me a lot of those video games that get stuck in development hell for years and years. In his younger days, George had to meet deadlines, so the book he had a year or two to write was the book he released. Whether he wishes he could go back and fix or change things now, he can't do it because it's already been released. The same went for those developers that always had to meet deadlines or their studio would be shuttered the next week. Later on, when those developers are successful enough to afford to just stay in indefinite development, switching game engines and adding new features to their Frankenstein, they can do so. With Winds, George can now kick the can down the road for another year every time he gets a new idea instead of releasing his 2011 idea for a book in 2013 "or else." I'm extremely new to writing, but I have done creative stuff like DMing for a DnD group for years. Once a week, I show up with campaign notes and memorized worldbuilding notes. I could always push this week's session further and further back, perfecting and honing the next sequence of dungeons and quests, but without an outlet, creativity feels like a burden to me. I could have always made a dungeon or encounter better for my players, but they absolutely could have left me without my outlet if I kept delaying sessions, promising the best new ogre fight ever.
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Jul 10, 2022 16:04
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He is pretty much saying that in that blog post: he still rewriting parts, having tons of new ideas, adding lots new characters and plots etc etc I cant see how anybody can read that and truly believe that man is ever finishing the series. I dont think even him believes that anymore. He is just having his fun "gardening" it
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Jul 10, 2022 16:15
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Words are wind
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Jul 10, 2022 16:38
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I will never not be amused by his defense force who cannot contemplate that the vast majority of all great commercial art ever produced was made under time and financial constraints because they were hired to do a job. Its rarely some passion project. But GRRM is this delicate soul who cant be expected to adhere to worldly constraints while working away at his Art.
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Jul 10, 2022 16:40
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I wonder how many current problems were caused by giving up the 5 Year Gap and if it would have been worth it for a few POV's to feel a little clunky if it meant keeping the overall story going and being able to age up the younger characters. I know he said that his biggest sticking point was that he felt it was weird to have Jon become Lord Commander and have nothing of note happen for 5 years, or Cersei going through 5 Hands in as many years and just skipping over that as though it wasn't a story in and of itself. You're the writer and it can be whatever you want it to be for whatever reason and at the same time I can also see how that might stick in any author's craw. It's just frustrating as a reader who has been waiting for 10 years now for the story to move forward. We can only have so many Pink Letter discussions.
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Jul 10, 2022 20:17
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Pennsylvanian posted:Listening to the interview, George's troubles with Winds when it comes to him getting "better ideas" remind me a lot of those video games that get stuck in development hell for years and years. In his younger days, George had to meet deadlines, so the book he had a year or two to write was the book he released. Whether he wishes he could go back and fix or change things now, he can't do it because it's already been released. The same went for those developers that always had to meet deadlines or their studio would be shuttered the next week. Later on, when those developers are successful enough to afford to just stay in indefinite development, switching game engines and adding new features to their Frankenstein, they can do so. With Winds, George can now kick the can down the road for another year every time he gets a new idea instead of releasing his 2011 idea for a book in 2013 "or else." "A work is never truly completeda word that for them has no sensebut abandoned" -Valery
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Jul 10, 2022 20:41
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Happy Landfill posted:I wonder how many current problems were caused by giving up the 5 Year Gap and if it would have been worth it for a few POV's to feel a little clunky if it meant keeping the overall story going and being able to age up the younger characters. I know he said that his biggest sticking point was that he felt it was weird to have Jon become Lord Commander and have nothing of note happen for 5 years, or Cersei going through 5 Hands in as many years and just skipping over that as though it wasn't a story in and of itself. You're the writer and it can be whatever you want it to be for whatever reason and at the same time I can also see how that might stick in any author's craw. It's just frustrating as a reader who has been waiting for 10 years now for the story to move forward. We can only have so many Pink Letter discussions. Sometimes, when I think that he should have done the five year gap, I think "Of course. The Arya, Dany, and Jon plots were a slog in particular." On the other hand, there may have been a jarring jump if he had done the 5 year gap, with characters expositing on what happened over the years in a way that is really unusual for the story so far. Overall, I don't think the 5 year gap hurt Winds progress as much as a lot of the more non-narrative reasons. One big reason is the splitting of POVs. In AGoT, the King's Landing plot is moved along with the use of POVs from Ned, Arya, and Sansa, with minor support from Tyrion, Bran, and Catelyn. The plot of Ned discovering Robert Arryn's murder and his attempt to expose the Lannisters is pushed forward with nearly every chapter. By the end of Dance, there are something like two dozen POVs and probably a dozen disparate major plots, many of which do not move forward for chapters or even sometimes books at a time. I think at one point in the books, three POVs are just wandering the Riverlands at the same time with no real Riverlands-centric plot for them to leapfrog off of one another. At another point, Sam and Arya cross paths in Braavos just to have Sam wander off again to Oldtown. The grand plots have not really moved at all, forcing us to spend more time obsessing over honeyed locusts instead of, say, learning what The Others actually loving are. I also have to wonder how much work in progress George's editor has seen. Has she seen chapters that have been thrown out? He also doesn't have a group of people that he can bounce ideas off of, leaving himself at the mercy of his own wandering brain. Like I said, creativity without an outlet can feel awful, whether it's drawing, sculpting, writing, playing music, etc. Art is more social than I think we realize sometimes. Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 11, 2022 |
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Jul 10, 2022 22:59
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In my head I keep going back to the fact that one of The Expanse guys was his assistant and around the time he stopped working for Martin was when the narrative started to get unwieldly and the time between books became longer and longer meanwhile Ty Franck went on to publish nine novels in as many years with his work partner. You're right, art is social and collaborative and I think you can see that Martin does enjoy working with other authors, either through straight collaboration (like with Tuttle) or with all the anthologies he edits. Pennsylvanian posted:On the other hand, there may have been a jarring jump if he had done the 5 year gap, with characters expositing on what happened over the years in a way that is really unusual for the story so far. I also appreciate you saying this because I think I was having trouble articulating this exact point, because you're right and that would have felt out of place. He does exposition but never in a "Last Time On..." sort of way.
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Jul 10, 2022 23:49
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Happy Landfill posted:I wonder how many current problems were caused by giving up the 5 Year Gap and if it would have been worth it for a few POV's to feel a little clunky if it meant keeping the overall story going and being able to age up the younger characters. I know he said that his biggest sticking point was that he felt it was weird to have Jon become Lord Commander and have nothing of note happen for 5 years, or Cersei going through 5 Hands in as many years and just skipping over that as though it wasn't a story in and of itself. You're the writer and it can be whatever you want it to be for whatever reason and at the same time I can also see how that might stick in any author's craw. It's just frustrating as a reader who has been waiting for 10 years now for the story to move forward. We can only have so many Pink Letter discussions. Oh with the benefit of hindsight just biting down on the leather and accepting a contrived, "lesser" gear change to set up a 5 year time jump was absolutely the better creative call, the problem is that even by the year 2000 GRRM was already believing in his own hype and getting so much ego-puffing that he probably felt very insecure about sacrificing his reputation as "one of the greats" just to ensure the story got finished on time. It's an understandable, almost tragic problem an artist can face. But most of them weren't blogging the entire time about football and convention schedules, and flaunting the massive HBO money and Hollywood circlejerking he got, so sympathy runs dry pretty fast from anyone with half a brain unless you truly feel sixty year-old television writers trying to build literal castles in the New Mexico suburbs in conjunction with buying a railroad is some kind of aspirational value worth putting stock in. Didn't that manga One Piece do a big time jump that was considered controversial when it happened, but once fans calmed down and the narrative regained momentum from the disruption, it's mostly agreed it was a net good and it's still being seen as one of the GOAT for shonen manga? Happy Landfill posted:In my head I keep going back to the fact that one of The Expanse guys was his assistant and around the time he stopped working for Martin was when the narrative started to get unwieldly and the time between books became longer and longer meanwhile Ty Franck went on to publish nine novels in as many years with his work partner. You're right, art is social and collaborative and I think you can see that Martin does enjoy working with other authors, either through straight collaboration (like with Tuttle) or with all the anthologies he edits.
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Jul 11, 2022 01:21
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I mean, in a vacuum the series ballooning to 5 6 7 or more books because the plot expands perhaps more unwieldy than anticipated isnt necessarily a problem at all. If. He. Actually. Wrote. Like. Its. His. drat. Job.
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Jul 11, 2022 02:17
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True. In a different world he's a total recluse who pops out once a year to look like a dewildered wild man at San Diego Comic-Con and we have quite a long track of books that certainly meander but through raw persistence of quantity have pushed that needle forward. A man once published an entire book he wrote by blinking one eyelid. Dude could have done it if it was really what he prioritized.
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Jul 11, 2022 02:22
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I mean when people say Martin doesn't owe us books, that's trivially true in some sense. An author is not obligated to write except in the legal sense by whatever deals they have with their publisher, and the practical sense by whatever money they need to not die in a capitalist society. Martin does not owe us books in that sense. However, when someone promises you something, even a child is able to understand that they are then obligated to deliver on that promise - they owe you that which they promised. Martin has implicitly promised us books by virtue of saying there will be more and creating a series in which the ending is not yet written, and explicitly by insisting that Winds is coming. But hey, things happen. One of the things that helps separate adults from children is that adults are able to understand this fact, and can accept apologies and explanations when circumstances force someone to break a promise. All Martin would have to do is say that he's deeply sorry but he cannot finish the books. It would be nice if he gave a proper explanation, and nicer still if he at least shared his notes with the public or another author who he trusted to finish the series, but things happen. But his ego won't let him do that either. A person is not obligated to take you to the airport - they are not an rear end in a top hat if they refuse to take you to the airport. If that person says they will take you to the airport, then doesn't, then they're an rear end in a top hat. If that person's mother dies the day they are meant to take you to the airport, or their car breaks down, that's 'fine' but they obviously are obligated to inform you of that fact so that you can understand not to expect them to take you to the airport. Martin owes us books or an apology. Even a child could understand this fact, and that so many sycophants and Gaiman-likes and poo poo keep acting like the situation is otherwise is frankly ridiculous.
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Jul 11, 2022 02:35
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hes such a basic baby bitch cry more rich great-grandpa
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Jul 11, 2022 02:40
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Pennsylvanian posted:Sometimes, when I think that he should have done the five year gap, I think "Of course. The Arya, Dany, and Jon plots were a slog in particular." On the other hand, there may have been a jarring jump if he had done the 5 year gap, with characters expositing on what happened over the years in a way that is really unusual for the story so far. I think he could have got away with not doing exposition to explain events. These books still have enough dedicated fans that, as long as some offhand references are made to the major events, people will assemble a timeline themselves (and argue about it online; engagement!) and it gives him the option of making some big revelations when the opportunity presents itself.
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Jul 11, 2022 03:41
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He could just have someone ghostwrite it, poo poo out a couple more books, and take all the credit. Hes too much of a lazy fat gently caress to even do that.
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Jul 11, 2022 03:51
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Invalid Validation posted:He could just have someone ghostwrite it, poo poo out a couple more books, and take all the credit. He’s too much of a lazy fat gently caress to even do that. Ty is done with his poo poo and the westeros.org nazis are way too dumb to write a good book, look at woiaf. I doubt he trusts anyone else, he knows the 'book' sucks but is too embarrassed to ask for help
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Jul 11, 2022 03:57
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Tarnop posted:I think he could have got away with not doing exposition to explain events. These books still have enough dedicated fans that, as long as some offhand references are made to the major events, people will assemble a timeline themselves (and argue about it online; engagement!) and it gives him the option of making some big revelations when the opportunity presents itself. In the 21st Century with the HBO show that would have been an amazing way to wring out extra content during hiatuses if he did have to take a longer time between books. But that'd be leaving too much of his precious Fabrege "legacy" in the hands of others. Y'know that legacy that's doing so well right now.
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Jul 11, 2022 04:00
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Tarnop posted:I think he could have got away with not doing exposition to explain events. These books still have enough dedicated fans that, as long as some offhand references are made to the major events, people will assemble a timeline themselves (and argue about it online; engagement!) and it gives him the option of making some big revelations when the opportunity presents itself. Also he'd have a five-year in-story period he could go back to and fill with interesting short stories or whatever after the main series was done and those would probably sell like hot lemoncakes with the fans hungry for more more more
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Jul 11, 2022 10:50
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The ending what never have been good imo. grrm is not exactly known for his fantastic endings. I read some of his old stories and they almost universally end like "then something really weird happens, usually due to the characters having missed some important aspect of their situation, often by failing to ascribe agency to whatever causes the unexpected outcome". So I can certainly believe that some time traveling Bran hivemind stuff was originally the endgame. But either he never really had a clear plan for how to get there, or the story just grew too much around it, and now he's just looking at the empty page going  . Five year gap or no is probably the smallest of his problems.And hey, he could easily still have the five year gap if he wants, not like any of the main plots have fundamentally moved since ASOS.
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Jul 11, 2022 12:29
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I considered that as well: there's nothing necessarily stopping him from STILL doing a five year time skip if that's part of what's muddying things.
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Jul 11, 2022 16:44
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Happy Landfill posted:I considered that as well: there's nothing necessarily stopping him from STILL doing a five year time skip if that's part of what's muddying things. The actresses would no longer be young enough for him to get off.
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Jul 11, 2022 17:50
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Happy Landfill posted:I considered that as well: there's nothing necessarily stopping him from STILL doing a five year time skip if that's part of what's muddying things. I'm going to lol if he announces he's ditching all he's done and going back to plan A.
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Jul 11, 2022 19:49
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Happy Landfill posted:I considered that as well: there's nothing necessarily stopping him from STILL doing a five year time skip if that's part of what's muddying things. It depends on if we're at the point where he wanted to be had he done the skip. I think part of originally getting rid of the 5 year skip is that he completely shuffled around the timeline of events into a shorter timeframe. I think the events of Feast/Dance have caused the predicament where anyone can look at the books and think: "There is no way that at the current pace, Dany will even leave for Westeros by the end of Winds unless he writes something incredibly drastic, same for Arya leaving Bravos." He would have to do a lot of off-screen plot advancement like he did in AGoT, where whole battles and long journeys just kind of happen. Another thing I took away from that Game of Owns (ugh that name) interview was how many "fans" of George's work just pester him to give them his time for their own gain, with the biggest problem of course being George's eagerness to oblige. George, make a map. George, make the map bigger. George, put more stuff on the map. George, make worldbuilding for all of the stuff you just put onto the map. George, make a book about all of the worldbuilding. George, let's start up another TV show set in a part of the world you have no real worldbuilding for. George, do worldbuilding for that part of the show. Did we mention we're huge fans and would love to see Winds and Dream when they come out? I can't blame anyone for wanting to stick their hands into that pot, but I can also hate them a little less than I do George for entertaining them.
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Jul 11, 2022 20:11
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I don't really know that he COULD still do the 5-year time-skip, he's already begun a number of plots already that (I think, at least) would have definitively occurred on the other side of that time skip if it had happened. I think it's actually quite helpful to remember what an epic mistake it was not to do the time-jump, and just how absolutely perfectly situated every single main character was to be left alone for 5 years at (approximately) the end of ASOS, give or take a few chapters in the case of some characters. Jon would have been Lord Commander of the Night's Watch as he grew into adulthood and experience ruling, and Dany would've done more or less the same thing while ruling her empire in Slaver's Bay. Samwell would've been in Oldtown training to be a Maester, Arya would have been in Braavos training to be a Faceless Girl, Sansa would've been in the Vale with Littlefinger training to be a Machiavellian puppetmaster, and Bran would've been in Bloodraven's lair training to be a super-greenseer or whatever. Tyrion would've been in exile in Essos just drinking himself to death after betraying his brother and murdering his father - which is what he was doing anyway, but still. Oh, and Theon's arc would have been pretty much identical since he had his own little time-jump anyway. Catelyn's return as Stoneheart would also have been a bit more meaningful probably with the passage of more time. It's really kinda crazy that he didn't do a time-skip, and no surprise that he stalled out the narrative horrifically in books 4 and 5. I know I'm not the only one who felt like everything just started to feel wrong, or "off", or false somehow started with the fourth book. Like the narrative had just totally gone off the rails in all the POVs simultaneously. I bet we wouldn't have gotten so much pointless meandering with characters from Dorne and the Iron Islands if the rear end in a top hat had kept the narrative on-track with the time-jump.
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Jul 11, 2022 21:45
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He's not sure if modern readers will be comfortable with the amount of underage sex he's written into the next book.
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Jul 11, 2022 21:48
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As far as I can tell, the 5 year skip would have just been so uncharacteristic. For a series that made you feel every second and minute of a character's story, having five years go by and the story saying "This happened and that happened and the character's interpersonal relationships are all now like this" would be so uncharacteristic. And I'm fully willing to criticize that slow pacing of character arcs and if that skip would have been worth it, but in the end, I think the 5 year gap was a security blanket for George, who genuinely thought he could finish the story using it, much like how he says there are definitely two more books left. Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jul 11, 2022 |
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Jul 11, 2022 22:00
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Happy Landfill posted:I wonder how many current problems were caused by giving up the 5 Year Gap and if it would have been worth it for a few POV's to feel a little clunky kaworu posted:I think it's actually quite helpful to remember what an epic mistake it was not to do the time-jump, and just how absolutely perfectly situated every single main character was to be left alone for 5 years at (approximately) the end of ASOS I wonder what the real reason was. Like I know he felt it wasn't working out, but if anyone gets the chance to talk to him, I'd love them to drill down into that specific decision. What was he writing when he said "gently caress it, this isn't working". The fantasy book with a big time jump that I remember was Feist's Magician Apprentice, where you have two young adults ( one captured by the enemy, one stranded with the dwarves ) - and they fast forward a few years to the significant changes. One has spent a few years in a slave camp, the other has turned into a crazy rear end warrior. It _was_ jarring, but only for like... 5 minutes. And Feist also has characters age between books, so each book starts out with the same character, but x years have passed. Maybe the ways of catching people up are a bit cheezy, but it allows you to do some cool things, like keep the readers in the dark about life changing events and sort of recreate some of the mystery with those characters, rather than getting the blow by blow as they eat and poo poo every day. And also gently caress him. He ended a book with "Meanwhile back at the wall..." That is one of the most jarring things I've come across reading a novel. Happy Landfill posted:In my head I keep going back to the fact that one of The Expanse guys was his assistant and around the time he stopped working for Martin was when the narrative started to get unwieldly and the time between books became longer and longer meanwhile Ty Franck went on to publish nine novels in as many years with his work partner. I would like to resurrect the theory that GRRM signed a deal with the devil to become the author of the best selling Trilogy of all time - namely the first 3 books, and the twist is that GRRM hosed it up and didn't end it in 3 books. So now he's doomed to never truly complete the 4th book. ALLAN LASSUS posted:Also he'd have a five-year in-story period he could go back to and fill with interesting short stories or whatever after the main series was done and those would probably sell like hot lemoncakes with the fans hungry for more more more This is really the killer isn't. He could have just gone in afterwards and written fun one-offs, or licensed the poo poo out. You how in video editing, people go back and redit the same move over and over to create different movies? I forget which movie that is. Part of me would love to see GOT get wrung through the fanfic machine over and over, to become a teaching point on loving up a story, and lead to the generation of thousands and thousands of parallel stories.
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Jul 11, 2022 23:56
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Pennsylvanian posted:much like how he says there are definitely two more books left. It's a 9-10 book series. It just is, unless he starts hacking through and dumping poo poo left and write. Hey that misspelling actually works.
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Jul 12, 2022 00:00
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