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trackday, or at some point you're going to have to accept it's not really very safe, and just find a nice road and enjoy it.
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Jul 16, 2022 23:16
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Slavvy posted:^^^ reading the above post, I'd seriously suggest cranking another step of rear preload into it or taking out a click of rebound if available. Has it got any kind of fork adjustment?
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Jul 17, 2022 00:32
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Ok yeah sounds like there's no mileage on adjusting preload. If you have a rebound adjuster on the rear shock, that is basically a difficulty-to-turn knob, if you have one you could try backing it off a little, it will make your bike dive a little easier on a shut throttle and stand up a little more on steady throttle.
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Jul 17, 2022 00:49
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No such adjuster, but reading between the lines there on the shut throttle: I should be aiming for maximum lean in the space between coming off the brakes and beginning to accelerate, huh? I'm realizing this is what I normally do but the problem situations I'm talking about are when I'm trying to increase lean mid-turn as a correction. So maybe the real problem's not that I'm pushing weakly mid-turn per se, the problem starts because I'm afraid to throw the bike over hard enough when I enter the turn, with faith in my ability to stand it up with a little gas if I lean too far.
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Jul 17, 2022 02:10
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No, maximum lean happens when you've just opened the throttle and are holding it steady because that's when the bike has the most ground clearance and the weight is distributed evenly between the tyres. You absolutely don't want to be at maximum lean on a shut throttle, that's not great technique and puts a lot of load on the front when you don't want it there. The bike will steer lighter when you're on a steady throttle. This is not the same as accelerating through the turn, which is dangerous bad advice. You hold the throttle steady, maintaining a steady speed, until the corner starts to open because acceleration will widen your line. I think people get confused because on a lot of corners on the street, that middle phase of steady throttle is barely there because the corner is too short so you're accelerating pretty much immediately. You seem to be struggling in the long, fast turns, which is where you'd spend the most time on a steady throttle before accelerating, and where you're likely able to turn in just on a shut throttle without needing to use the brakes. Try this: go find a twisty road you're familiar with and ride down it without touching the brakes, and without shutting the throttle unless you're upright. Just try to maintain corner speed, use good lines and keep it steadily on the back wheel. Basically the only reason to coast on a shut throttle is when you need to dive the front just a little bit to turn in or change direction, but not so much that you need to involve the brakes, so very briefly and with a purpose. Again this is pretty much what to do in a fast corner so join the dots. Never ever coast along, go from the brakes to the throttle as quickly and seamlessly as possible. The idea is to always have the bike on the back wheel unless you're braking as that's how it's designed to work. If you're just pitching in and coasting through half the corner yeah, you'll have a bad time and nothing will work properly. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 02:49
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I have been following Slavvy advice about corner throttle for a while (as best as I can) and want to ask a question actually: What should I do if I realize I need to lose speed in the turn? I have had this happen a few times that early in the turn, I just needed to shed some speed and started trail braking. Obviously I assume that's the right thing to do from all my Slavvy courses, but the thing I am struggling with a bit and sometimes leaves me jerking around far too much: What should I do with the rest of the controls? Should I just keep the steady throttle and trail brake against it? This seems to be the way for slow maneuvering, but letting off the brakes feels fairly uncontrolled and not good to me. Maybe use the clutch at the same time? But that adds even more complexity and I have tried that a few times and rev matching back in in a corner doesn't feel safe either. Even if feathering the clutch the whole time it didn't really feel all too stable. Obviously I don't wanna shut the throttle either, right? Pls help, I think this is my biggest jerk factor right now. I want to tackle this before I start picking up any poo poo habbits.
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Jul 17, 2022 09:38
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If you need to loose speed in the turn, you've hosed up completely and the safest thing to do is stand up and brake tbh. You basically can't really apply the brake to any substantial degree when you're already leaned over, because the weight transfer just won't happen and all you'll do is steal grip from turning. You can definitely still do it and I encourage you to try, you'll find that the bike tends to stand up. Pro tip: this is not an inherent bike behavior, it is just how all street bikes are set up, in the same way all street cars understeer - it's safer this way. You can absolutely set a bike up to be lean neutral on the brakes, it's very fun but tends to result in crashes. Regardless, you're meant to plan the corner beforehand so you don't end up in the situation of having to slow down mid turn. Using the clutch in a corner is a death sentence, don't touch it. So your options are: 1 Shut the throttle and apply front brake gently while taking away lean (risks riding you off the road/into opposing traffic) 2 Keep the throttle steady and drag the rear brake (risks lowsiding with very little warning) 3 Stay steady on the throttle and lean the bike more 1 is what you do when there's an unexpected tractor around the corner 2 is what you do when you just need to scrub a little bit of speed and shutting the throttle would push you wide/overload the front 3 is what you do the vast majority of the time because it's very rare to be at them maximum lean the bike can physically sustain (this option doesn't exist on cruisers) This is why trail braking is such a crucial skill. If you're on the throttle early in the corner you have very little options if you've misjudged the corner terribly. If you trail brake deep into the turn you basically have the fork already loaded and the option of noping out with the brakes immediately. This is why v-shaped lines are safer on an unfamiliar road or in questionable conditions, while classical lines tend to be faster on roads you know in ideal conditions. There isn't a one weird trick to this stuff, these are all tools that you use when appropriate. Some corners I trail brake right to the apex and immediately gas on, others I brake a mile back and hold a steady throttle before I've even started turning. But if you're having to brake while already leaned, you hosed up several seconds ago and there is no low-risk way out. This is, again, one of the many reasons it's good to start on a small light bike, because you're very unlikely to have the courage to enter too fast for the bike to make the corner, and at the same time you have more spare lean capacity if you need to lean further as well as less mass to haul up if you want to nope out.
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Jul 17, 2022 10:45
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Slavvy posted:If you need to loose speed in the turn, you've hosed up completely and the safest thing to do is stand up and brake tbh. You basically can't really apply the brake to any substantial degree when you're already leaned over, because the weight transfer just won't happen and all you'll do is steal grip from turning. You can definitely still do it and I encourage you to try, you'll find that the bike tends to stand up. Pro tip: this is not an inherent bike behavior, it is just how all street bikes are set up, in the same way all street cars understeer - it's safer this way. You can absolutely set a bike up to be lean neutral on the brakes, it's very fun but tends to result in crashes. Regardless, you're meant to plan the corner beforehand so you don't end up in the situation of having to slow down mid turn. Using the clutch in a corner is a death sentence, don't touch it. Thanks for the substantial post, lots of good info there. Let me start by saying that I absolutely agree that braking in a turn is a worst case and I definitely try to ride in a way that I don't need it. But when trying to push my boundaries, I sometimes find myself wanting/needing to nope out, because I don't feel confident I will be able to sustain a corner or something. Thanks to this thread/forum, I have been able to push myself far outside my initial comfort zone and am able to trust my tyres and such. But at times (especially apparent at the start of this season) I notice that I am hesitant of pushing further at points where I *know* I have leaned far more before or at higher speeds. It's especially at those times I try to push myself a little bit, but recently I had a few moments where I did that at "new" limits and wasn't too sure if maybe I am going too far. And there have been turns that closed up unexpectedly while I am already at the max speed for my (perceived) maximum lean angle and I really needed to dump some speed if I can at all. Sure, I might have been able to lean further or make it through, but losing speed just seems minutely safer to me there. To be fair, in those extreme cases I did what you said and stood it up, going in the other lane which fortunately was possible. I guess my question was actually more for when I wanna chicken out just before the corner and not mid-turn, which is way too late. I guess my question was mostly aimed at scenario 2 when too scared to do 3. I guess what I really want to do is just proper trail braking. Because when this happens, I usually already know going into the corner, not mid-turn. I think you had a bigger post about trail braking before, would you happen to know if it was in this thread? But going back to 2, how would you recommend I ease out of that? Slowly roll off the throttle? Or just try and release the back brake as gently as possible? I am unhappy with how I "end" those brake events, often lunging forward a bit.
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Jul 17, 2022 12:30
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You're going to have to nut up and get comfortable with option 3. You would be amazed how much you can lean a bike. Are you scraping the pegs? No? You have more lean. I had my first experience at this on my 250 ninja. Corner tightened unexpectedly and I knew Slavvys option 1 and 2 were out so 3 it was. All I could do was not to freeze my body up and unsettle the bike, and trust it. I leaned until my toe slider and footpeg slider touched down and came out of the corner just fine. Once it happened the first time I knew what it felt like, and I could do it again if I had to and use it as a reference - if I had to do it again it means I'd hosed up several steps before and needed to review my decision making up to that point.
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Jul 17, 2022 12:43
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You should be capable of releasing both brakes very gradually. Don't just let it go, you need to bleed off the pressure. Basically none of the controls on the bike are binary, everything has to be done smoothly and progressively in both directions. If I'm using the rear brake to slow down a bit in the middle of a turn it's only very gently. One thing I've noticed converted car drivers do is try to brake really quickly, as if they've only got a split second. But in reality your have loads of time and space and you can go much faster and safer by braking less over a longer distance. Also: if you brake too deep and run out of grip, you end up on your rear end instantly. If your enter too fast and lean too far, the bike gently pushes the front or rear or both towards the outside, it's fairly controllable and predictable (I'm assuming your bike is from this century and has good tires and chassis parts). You don't just instantly fall over if you overstep the mark, rather it will just wash out wide until you've scrubbed off enough energy for the tyres to run a clean line again. Don't be afraid of leaning, be afraid of being not-smooth and loading the wrong tyre at the wrong time. If you think about it, what kind of crashes are left after you rule out other vehicle collisions and bad line/speed decisions? Locking the front and falling, spinning up the rear too much and falling/flying. It is very, very rare to crash from lean angle alone, yet leaning the bike far is the most frighting thing for your lizard brain. It took me years to overcome this fully and I still have to work my way up to it if I haven't ridden for a long while. If you aren't using the brake and are on a steady throttle, and hard parts aren't touching yet, you can lean further. Try this: go out on a straight road and try shutting the throttle slowly. Like I'm talking, go from WOY to shut in like 2-3 seconds. People tend to snap it shut and just expect the bike to deal with it, you'd be amazed how much more confidence and entry speed your can have if you keep everything super smooth. Then try braking fairly hard and again easing off it really slowly. Then combine the two and synchronize it with adding lean angle. Also wrt pushing boundaries psychologically, imo if you go out with the intent of going fast and pushing things, you'll end up feeling nervous and dissatisfied. I've found if I just try to ride at a relaxed pace and focus on doing everything right, going faster comes naturally and I feel totally relaxed. Ymmv.
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Jul 17, 2022 12:49
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Don't feel weird about riding slower than your bike is capable of, btw. It is excellent to try and get good cornering skills because that can save you from an accident if you suddenly have to manouvre in extreme ways. But it's the public road. There are speed limits, and it's fine to not exceed the speed limit (assuming you have to exceed it, to get anywhere near the limits of your bike, which is almost always the case in my country)
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Jul 17, 2022 13:20
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All excellent advice. Also: 1. go take a class. 2. Record yourself riding and then watch the video thinking about what you’re doing.
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Jul 17, 2022 13:22
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Double post. Take two classes?
builds character fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 13:22
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Carth Dookie posted:You're going to have to nut up and get comfortable with option 3. I am scraping posts on the regular atm and it's one of the reasons I sometimes question how much more lean I have left. I have pushed down further than comfortable before, but I also learnt that sometimes I might not manage to do that (which is what happened before I dropped my bike at a course earlier this season). It was a series of misjudgements/bad reactions by me because I was overloaded trying to do everything I had learnt at once. Can not recommend doing multiple riding courses in very close succession, the previous one was too fresh in my mind and played part in my bad decisions that led to me dropping the bike. builds character posted:All excellent advice. Also: 1. go take a class. 2. Record yourself riding and then watch the video thinking about what you’re doing. Already been to two classes this year, I am scheduled to do some low friction riding next week. Basically the guy has partnered with a large kart track and apparently found the right rubber for some 125s that it has just barely the right amount of grip to really test your limits. I expect to crash at least once  Considering they clearly specify crash damage to the bikes as part of the cost, I think they do too. SEKCobra fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 14:16
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Slavvy posted:If anyone wants extra credit they should watch this video I've seen this video before and it rules. The rider on that funky bike wearing the 80s NFL padding is sat kinda on top of the bike off the side of the saddle as he leans it in round the corners, the superbike and moto riders are all leaning in line with the bike. What's the deal there exactly?
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Jul 17, 2022 14:45
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Slavvy posted:You should be capable of releasing both brakes very gradually. Don't just let it go, you need to bleed off the pressure. Basically none of the controls on the bike are binary, everything has to be done smoothly and progressively in both directions. If I'm using the rear brake to slow down a bit in the middle of a turn it's only very gently. One thing I've noticed converted car drivers do is try to brake really quickly, as if they've only got a split second. But in reality your have loads of time and space and you can go much faster and safer by braking less over a longer distance. Solid advice and I'll have to do the throttle exercise you describe, I don't think I've ever conciously tried that. I don't just snap the throttle closed all the time, but I certainly don't not do that sometimes. I don't go out with the intent of going fast (I am a boring speed limit rider) or pushing boundaries necessarily, but I do want to improve. There are just times where I really don't feel like I know how to do "everything right".
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Jul 17, 2022 14:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WuymmgrZI4 I lost it at GRIMSBY
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Jul 17, 2022 16:00
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Olympic Mathlete posted:I've seen this video before and it rules. The rider on that funky bike wearing the 80s NFL padding is sat kinda on top of the bike off the side of the saddle as he leans it in round the corners, the superbike and moto riders are all leaning in line with the bike. What's the deal there exactly? Mr Roboto is a Japanese Auto Racer. I think they wear that bulky gear so you can’t tell who they are, for the gambling aspect. I don’t have a good explanation of why dynamically it’s better to sit on top of the bike but it definitely is (for this type of bike and riding). I think it’s in part because the bike is constantly sliding. If you’re hanging off and the bike’s slide increases, you’ll probably fall over. If you’re on top, it just slides some more. You also are sliding your foot which you can’t do if you’re hanging off, and when you feel the pressure increase in your foot you know the bike is sliding more and can react. That’s what my limited experience with flat track/oval riding tells me. Hanging off is a road/circuit racing thing. You’ll notice in supermoto they do both. In speedway they basically stay inline with the bike (no brakes, crude suspension), and flat track (no front brake) they tend to sit on top but might lean to the inside right at the exit to help get a good drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkJET3Eaycw&t=350s edit: woops, put wrong video at first! Toe Rag fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 16:35
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My first, ultimately minor crash was the result of taking Slavvy's Option 1 despite too little runout to brake, for fear of Option #3. My fear of leaning harder to the right was made worse by a cliff on that side. That's when I started working really hard to internalize the idea that if you can't safely stand it up and brake you have to push, push, keep pushing and be willing to make the turn or lowside trying. I have one particular instance where continually mentally preparing to do #3 almost certainly saved my life. It wasn't a very fast series of turns, 15-30mph, but sharp and with poor sight distance from foliage, and I went into the initial right-hander too fast. I "knew" I was hosed, I think I was actually yelling in my helmet through the whole turn, but kept pushing/leaning, and I believe it went like this: 1- The peg started scraping and coming up, my foot jerked up in panic (a familiar point from prior mistakes and my perceived limit). 2- The bike still had more lean 3- The whole bike, both tires, began sliding to the outside a little 4- I kept staring to where I wanted to go and even while sliding a little bit from momentum the bike still held its line. 5- Oncoming truck appears in the other lane, I'd have been hit for sure without having taken #3 Now, if it had been a left-hander requiring the same amount of lean I would've also been in trouble, because the GS500 had a center stand pedal that touched down shortly after the peg. I learned that from crash #2, sort of a complicated incident but ultimately the center stand levered the rear off the ground and I lowsided. There was a single common element to all 3 crashes I've had though: the unskillful overapplication of speed. #3 is critical to be prepared to do, but "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" will help avoid rolling the dice on your safety in the first place.
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Jul 17, 2022 17:32
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Olympic Mathlete posted:I've seen this video before and it rules. The rider on that funky bike wearing the 80s NFL padding is sat kinda on top of the bike off the side of the saddle as he leans it in round the corners, the superbike and moto riders are all leaning in line with the bike. What's the deal there exactly? Toe Rag posted:Mr Roboto is a Japanese Auto Racer. I think they wear that bulky gear so you can’t tell who they are, for the gambling aspect. It's this. The further you lean off toward the inside, the less weight you have over the rear tyre and the less leverage you have over the bars. Compare for example the modern MotoGP riding style, where they're just about chin dragging and their outside arm is almost fully extended over the tank, to the old timey 500 GP style where their rear end is hanging out but their shoulders are above the bars. This isn't cause schwantz and co didn't know what they were doing, but rather because their bikes were very raw and snappy and rear biased, so the biggest danger by far was highsiding because driving out of the corner was where you made your speed and thus where you took the most risks. Otoh the modern bikes have sophisticated TC and generally far better chassis parts in relation to their power, so leaning off super far is relatively safe, but also not an area you can really improve your speed. The bikes are more front biased and the rider can make the biggest difference under braking so the riding style has evolved to emphasize this. Basically slidy bikes are long and turn poorly, so there's not much benefit in leaning in but lots of benefit to leaning out as it lets you control the slide better and get better turning. Otoh a bike where the tyres aren't expected to slide will be set up to turn as efficiently as possible, so it makes sense to maximize the available lean angle by leaning off as far as possible. Another factor is that bikes with skinny tyres need less lean angle for a given corner speed, so that guy can have his cake and eat it because he can have better corner speed than the gixxers AND better slide control because he can afford not to lean off while still maintaining similar corner speed. Motards work in a similar way but have fatter tires so tend to have to lean really far anyway, which is what led to the extreme foot-forward style because it gets your leg out of the way. Remy Marathe posted:Peg scraping If you're scraping pegs routinely, and you're doing it on a steady throttle, it's time to lean off. Very simply: when you're still upright and about to brake, shift your rear end so you've got one cheek hanging off the side of the seat, dig your outside heel into the peg and jam out against the tank to support yourself, move your shoulders so your spine is parallel with the bike. Then brake, then turn. You'll find that even a slight amount of hanging off makes a huge difference to both ground clearance in the middle and stability in the entry. This works on all bikes, the bikes with the least ground clearance benefit the most.
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Jul 17, 2022 21:34
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And furthermore: GORIMSBYYY
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Jul 17, 2022 21:39
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Not that I'm dragging pegs routinely, but I have always meant to get a camera to see if my body english is half as much as I think it is. Slavvy posted:And furthermore: GORIMSBYYY I'm gonna need this one spelled out vvvv lol I thought it was a safety or technique acronym Remy Marathe fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 21:54
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knox_harrington posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WuymmgrZI4 GRRRRRIMMMMMSBYYYYY
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Jul 17, 2022 22:04
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First track day coming up Saturday. Any tips? There is instruction.
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Jul 18, 2022 02:27
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Oh fun! Get there early, bring plenty of water and snacks, and a tire gauge and way to add pressure if possible. Relax, have fun, and take advantage of the instructors, they will often let you follow them around and then follow you around and give you tips afterward if you ask.
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Jul 18, 2022 02:34
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Look where you want to go. Ride your own ride. A track is just a wide, one way road, but with better visibility and no cars or trees or cops. It goes in a circle so you get to do the same corner every 3 minutes, which is very good for learning. This is not a flippant reply!
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Jul 18, 2022 02:35
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Take your mirrors off even if it isn't mandatory.
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Jul 18, 2022 02:51
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Slavvy posted:Take your mirrors off even if it isn't mandatory. First rule of Italian race car driving: what is-a behind me, is notta important (guessing it's actually so they don't litter the track with glass if you bail? Guess what, I've never track dayed)
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Jul 18, 2022 03:37
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Glass is part of it, but having your mirrors on would be extremely distracting. That’s good advice. Every track I’ve ever been took makes you tape them up or take them off.
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Jul 18, 2022 03:48
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Yeah it's partly glass but mostly that having mirrors disrupts the dynamic as it makes people do funny things when they realize someone is behind them instead of just holding their line.
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Jul 18, 2022 04:00
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So dumb question- I was sideswiped this evening and my crash bar (and arm) took the brunt of the hit. I'm ok, didn't lose control, and there's not a single scratch on my bike. Is there anything I should get checked out just in case? other than my arm I'm hanging out in the quick care right now
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Jul 19, 2022 00:58
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drat, glad it sounds like you're mostly OK. Don't be afraid to wring the driver/their insurance for all they're worth. I would check front/rear wheel alignment at the very least to see if everything is still in a straight line.
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Jul 19, 2022 01:43
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Oh my God I'm so dumb. In my adrenaline soaked state of mind I managed to exchange insurance information but didn't call the cops. My insurance didn't seem too worried about the lack of police report but this will totally come now me in the rear end.
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Jul 19, 2022 01:55
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If you're in the US a number of places have an online accident reporting setup for calling in minor accidents where everyone could drive away and nobody was severely injured. You can probably also open a police report over the phone with the information you have.
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Jul 19, 2022 01:59
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Spiggy posted:So dumb question- I was sideswiped this evening and my crash bar (and arm) took the brunt of the hit. I'm ok, didn't lose control, and there's not a single scratch on my bike. Is there anything I should get checked out just in case? glad you're ok when you're up for it i'd like to hear what happened, i'm trying to learn as much as i can from other stories (similar to I hope people learned from my crash story) I imagine the story was someone just changed lanes into you suddenly, as I had that almost happen tonight twice to myself... they were nice enough to put on a turn signal first so I could move ahead out of the way for the first one, and take the next lane for the second one away from them i had a hard time imagining it but one of our MSF instructors told a story of cruising down the highway one day and this lady changed lanes to share it with him, I guess she just wanted to maximize the number of vehicles in each lane. She ended up so close to him, he was knocking on her window to politely ask her to not kill him, I guess even that she didn't notice crazy ... just crazy
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Jul 19, 2022 03:41
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I have been passively looking at dealer inventories the past couple weeks while I wait to take my MSF course. I have noticed that there are few/no Rebels, MT-03s or Z400s, but there are several KTM 390s hanging around. I found some old articles about reliability, do they still have issues?
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Jul 19, 2022 04:12
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Blue On Blue posted:glad you're ok You pretty much got it. I was in the far left lane of a three lane road and the guy in the middle lane merged without signaling. I managed to see him in time to swerve into a turn lane while controlling and slowing the bike. Now that I'm only 25% adrenaline I'm looking at the picture of his car and the damage makes no sense- there's a broken piece of fender near his front wheelbase that couldn't have been from the crash bar, plus there's none of his paint on my bike. I think he beaned me in the forearm with his mirror and I just got hella lucky, and the damage on his car was from a previous accident. Regardless hail Satan that I'm still kicking after all that.
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Jul 19, 2022 04:23
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Spiggy posted:You pretty much got it. I was in the far left lane of a three lane road and the guy in the middle lane merged without signaling. I managed to see him in time to swerve into a turn lane while controlling and slowing the bike. Now that I'm only 25% adrenaline I'm looking at the picture of his car and the damage makes no sense- there's a broken piece of fender near his front wheelbase that couldn't have been from the crash bar, plus there's none of his paint on my bike. I think he beaned me in the forearm with his mirror and I just got hella lucky, and the damage on his car was from a previous accident. Regardless hail Satan that I'm still kicking after all that. wow yeah that sucks
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Jul 19, 2022 04:37
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CongoJack posted:I have been passively looking at dealer inventories the past couple weeks while I wait to take my MSF course. I have noticed that there are few/no Rebels, MT-03s or Z400s, but there are several KTM 390s hanging around. I found some old articles about reliability, do they still have issues? They don't have issues, they are one big issue.
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Jul 19, 2022 04:54
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| # ? May 24, 2024 22:56 |
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CongoJack posted:I have been passively looking at dealer inventories the past couple weeks while I wait to take my MSF course. I have noticed that there are few/no Rebels, MT-03s or Z400s, but there are several KTM 390s hanging around. I found some old articles about reliability, do they still have issues? Dealer inventories are a mess right now. The dealer I bought my Rebel from told me I was the first person who'd managed to buy one without putting down a preorder deposit in months. I just got lucky the other dudes didn't want a green one (Their loss; the green is a great color). You're much more likely to get a decent beginner bike watching Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace for idiots who rode their Rebel/MT-03 for 500 miles and decided they're ready for a Road Glide.
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Jul 19, 2022 05:27
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